Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[Volkodav]

I'm just thinking about the anxiety I have with rewiring my bicycle dynamo hub and front and rear lights with a different brand, and there's only 3 wires. (not being a technical person, I got into so much difficulty connecting mine up). Doing it for a 150m long by 20m wide vessel? .....I can see massive Dunning-Kruger Effect here.

Try explaining to non technical decision makers that major, integrated changes, involving extensive design and construction work can be cheaper, less time consuming and less risky than multiple, interrelated minor changes.

As they explain their simple updates, I'm modelling in my mind just what we need to remove to reach the simple little change.

 

[iambuzzard]

They would have been a great buy for NZ . I'm only half joking too.

Maybe we could cascade Hobart's to them as proper DDGs come on line.

Volk, the thing is would the RNZN have the manpower or the political will to take on DDGs?

 

[Volkodav]

Volk, the thing is would the RNZN have the manpower or the political will to take on DDGs?

The crews aren't that much larger than the ANZACs and their capability would boost recruiting.

NZ was originally chasing four ANZACs, in hindsight three FFGs mayhavevbeen better value for money.

 

[Morgo]

The crews aren't that much larger than the ANZACs and their capability would boost recruiting.

NZ was originally chasing four ANZACs, in hindsight three FFGs mayhavevbeen better value for money.

I would strongly prefer that the Aus Gov of the time says:

1) we love our kiwi bros
2) we also love interoperability
3) we also love economies of scale
4) we also love continuous shipbuilding
5) so we’re going to build 6x our tier 2 solution (assuming it’s MEKOA210 / AH140 -esque) at cost price (including net of tax benefits to Australia) for them.

Seems like a good deal for both sides?

@ngatimozart - what are your thoughts on this?

 

[Armchair]

I would strongly prefer that the Aus Gov of the time says:

1) we love our kiwi bros
2) we also love interoperability
3) we also love economies of scale
4) we also love continuous shipbuilding
5) so we’re going to build 6x our tier 2 solution (assuming it’s MEKOA210 / AH140 -esque) at cost price (including net of tax benefits to Australia) for them.

one good thing about building ships in Australia (for the RAN or anybody else) is that its shipyards are harder to attack in a major Pacific conflict (or in a regional conflict in the Korean peninsula). Same is true of Europe and US.
Whether that factors into price depends on the perceived likelihood of conflict from the buyer’s perspective. Korean and Japanese ships have the VLS cell counts that many posters desire for the RAN. They are built that way because there are lots of missiles in range of the places those ships need to protect (that includes shipyards).

 

[Scott Elaurant]

Apologies for any fantasy fleet overtones and I understand our LHDs are not suited to take heavy jets like F35B.
However... is this trial completed yesterday of a Mojave UAV recon drone off the HMS Prince of Wales relevant to the RAN? Such an (autonomous) aircraft could be great for fleet reconnaissance. It is light, small and should not have the deck heat issues VTOL aircraft would have taking off. Very short takeoff length. Worth watching the video.

Mojave uncrewed air system successfully flown from HMS Prince of Wales | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

 

[Anthony_B_78]

Apologies for any fantasy fleet overtones and I understand our LHDs are not suited to take heavy jets like F35B.
However... is this trial completed yesterday of a Mojave UAV recon drone off the HMS Prince of Wales relevant to the RAN? Such an (autonomous) aircraft could be great for fleet reconnaissance. It is light, small and should not have the deck heat issues VTOL aircraft would have taking off. Very short takeoff length. Worth watching the video.

Mojave uncrewed air system successfully flown from HMS Prince of Wales | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

If I recall correctly, the concern here is the 17-metre wingspan being a tight fit on a Canberra.

 

[iambuzzard]

Apologies for any fantasy fleet overtones and I understand our LHDs are not suited to take heavy jets like F35B.
However... is this trial completed yesterday of a Mojave UAV recon drone off the HMS Prince of Wales relevant to the RAN? Such an (autonomous) aircraft could be great for fleet reconnaissance. It is light, small and should not have the deck heat issues VTOL aircraft would have taking off. Very short takeoff length. Worth watching the video.

Mojave uncrewed air system successfully flown from HMS Prince of Wales | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

Our LHDs would require a lot of modification, a lot of money, and the political will to do it. Sadly, I think none of it will happen.
We would be better off getting one or two new build vessels if we want the capability.
The professionals on here would know better than me what would be required for this to happen.
We do need an embarked fixed wing element to be a true blue water navy capable of projecting itself.
Your opinions, gents?
Cheers,
Buzzard.

 

[Stampede]

Apologies for any fantasy fleet overtones and I understand our LHDs are not suited to take heavy jets like F35B.
However... is this trial completed yesterday of a Mojave UAV recon drone off the HMS Prince of Wales relevant to the RAN? Such an (autonomous) aircraft could be great for fleet reconnaissance. It is light, small and should not have the deck heat issues VTOL aircraft would have taking off. Very short takeoff length. Worth watching the video.

Mojave uncrewed air system successfully flown from HMS Prince of Wales | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

As a concept, it's worth exploring .
Cheers S

 

[Stampede]

Our LHDs would require a lot of modification, a lot of money, and the political will to do it. Sadly, I think none of it will happen.
We would be better off getting one or two new build vessels if we want the capability.
The professionals on here would know better than me what would be required for this to happen.
We do need an embarked fixed wing element to be a true blue water navy capable of projecting itself.
Your opinions, gents?
Cheers,
Buzzard.

Keep an eye on Turkeys ship
TCG Anadolu L-400 re UAV integration and development.

Crawl ,walk ,run ,we should start with a small UAV off an Arafura first.

Cheers S

 

[Milne Bay]

As a concept, it's worth exploring .
Cheers S

The concept could be worth exploring with a home grown product.

New Australian-built armed drone unveiled at Avalon - Australian Defence Magazine

BAE Systems Australia has teamed with local industry to present Australia’s first domestically designed, manufactured and armed VTOL Uncrewed Air System.

www.australiandefence.com.au

 

[ADMk2]

If I recall correctly, the concern here is the 17-metre wingspan being a tight fit on a Canberra.

Only among those who haven’t done their sums…

A 17m wide wingspan is 8.5m (more or less) on each side of the aircraft’s fuselage. The port side doesn’t matter obviously, but the starboard does.

The flightdeck is 32m wide and 20m wide with the superstructure included.

An 8.5m wingspan should see more than enough ‘safety space’ even by conservative RAN standards, should such a capability be pursued.

Posted previously, but the 25.5m wide V-22 Osprey has operated off the Canberra Class seemingly without issue and the 18m rotor diameter equipped CH-47F Chinook does this routinely.

 

[ADMk2]

Keep an eye on Turkeys ship
TCG Anadolu L-400 re UAV integration and development.

Crawl ,walk ,run ,we should start with a small UAV off an Arafura first.

Cheers S

RAN has been flying fixed wing UAV’s off it’s ships for more than a decade…

 

[OldTex]

Apologies for any fantasy fleet overtones and I understand our LHDs are not suited to take heavy jets like F35B.
However... is this trial completed yesterday of a Mojave UAV recon drone off the HMS Prince of Wales relevant to the RAN? Such an (autonomous) aircraft could be great for fleet reconnaissance. It is light, small and should not have the deck heat issues VTOL aircraft would have taking off. Very short takeoff length. Worth watching the video.

Mojave uncrewed air system successfully flown from HMS Prince of Wales | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

Several aspects of this trial-of-concept are worth noting from the Navy Lookout article.
Firstly, the take-off was conducted at an angle across the deck and did not utilise the ramp. It may be that the first trial was conducted either with HMS Prince of Wales anchored facing into the wind or operating in a very low sea state.
It would be reasonable to assume that the longer-term challenge would be to define the safe operating envelope for the aircraft when loaded with fuel, weapons and sensors and operating in less benign conditions. Recovering an unarrested air vehicle without any form of arrestor gear will present an interesting safety case when there are other aircraft parked on deck.
Secondly, the Mojave is based on the MQ-1C Grey Ghost which is a different system to the MQ-9B Sky Guardian/Sea Guardian which is entering service with the RAF. GA has developed a wing kit for its SeaGuardian derivative of the MQ-9B which includes folding wings and STOL-optimised tail and propellers which would be essential for shipboard operation.
Thirdly, neither of the UAVs are operated by Australia (following the cancellation of the project to acquire MQ-9B for the RAAF) which would be a costly change to the DSR.

 

[swerve]

WRT to the Tide Class builds, why didn't UK Plc and the RN have people on site supervising each build.? That's what the NZMOD and RNZN did with the Aotearoa build. We also did it with our NH90 build and procurement, having in this case NZMOD and RNZAF personnel on site in France during the assembly process.

Indeed.

I recall a film about Maersk having a very big ship built in Korea. IIRC there was a Maersk team on site throughout, & IIRC with their own interpreters - though AFAIK there wasn't anyone to interpret between Korean & Danish.

 

[swerve]

Apologies for any fantasy fleet overtones and I understand our LHDs are not suited to take heavy jets like F35B.
However... is this trial completed yesterday of a Mojave UAV recon drone off the HMS Prince of Wales relevant to the RAN? Such an (autonomous) aircraft could be great for fleet reconnaissance. It is light, small and should not have the deck heat issues VTOL aircraft would have taking off. Very short takeoff length. Worth watching the video.

Mojave uncrewed air system successfully flown from HMS Prince of Wales | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

Impressively short take off & landing runs, even assuming light load.

 

[Meriv90]

Even if with a light road having eyes up there with a good IR sensor would be amazing against incoming sea skimming missiles that leave you only a 20-30sec window of opportunity if you post them at the horizon line with the height of a Burke.

 

[Stampede]

RAN has been flying fixed wing UAV’s off it’s ships for more than a decade…

View attachment 50945

Thanks, that's correct.
Navy set up a dedicated training Sqn in 822X to explode this realm.
They always have a good display at Avalon for the airshow and if there is a takeaway, it's their positivity when chatting to them with regards to what they are doing.

Just hope this translates to a decision, to make a decision, to make a purchase.

If. Schiebels S-100 is not to be, then prioritise a like size replacement ASAP.
It's not just about the Arafura class, but also the frigates and destroyers having this complimentary capability to the Romeo Helicopter.
Ship real-estate will dictate a small UAV and I'd suspect for all the attributes and economy of a scan eagle, the the launch and recovery apparatus may realistically be prohibitive.
Doable, but real-estate hungary. .... Give it to
Army

Well and truly time to get meaningful numbers of this class of UAV rolled out across the fleet

Cheers S

 

[DDG38]

HMAS Toowoomba's dive team subjected to PLAN sonar. I don't care how many ships, aircraft and tanks China can pump out, they're clearly being manned by untrained and unprofessional personnel and it's behaviour like this that leads to further tensions between militaries.
Australian naval divers injured after being subjected to Chinese warship’s sonar pulses

 

[Morgo]

HMAS Toowoomba's dive team subjected to PLAN sonar. I don't care how many ships, aircraft and tanks China can pump out, they're clearly being manned by untrained and unprofessional personnel and it's behaviour like this that leads to further tensions between militaries.
Australian naval divers injured after being subjected to Chinese warship’s sonar pulses

Madness. The sort of thing that we could interpret as an act of war if we were looking to escalate.

Nonsensical given the CCPs current attempts at detente too.