ADF General discussion thread

Armchair

Well-Known Member
I suspect increased gross salary would drive recruitment and improved take home pay would drive retention.
A new recruit is more likely to say to self, friends and family “this will be my salary in four years”.
Someone in the job will say “that job outside ADF looks attractive, but my pay will go down in real terms” (especially with old faithful‘s increments).

Another benefit of the tax break is that it does not come out of the defence budget.

The salary sacrifice (not sure of the international usage of this term but it is the government allowing people to pay for things like cars, retirement income, and childcare with pretax schemes) for nurses is actually an arrangement that applies nationally for the health industry (or at least it did). The tax office traditionally approves such salary sacrifices if they are in an employment agreement. No good reason why it could not be applied to ADF (but it would be of limited attraction to personnel who live on bases or defence housing and aren’t contemplating investment properties).

Another option: tax free income for ADF personnel deployed off shore including at sea (most beneficial to RAN with the biggest workforce problems).

it would be an easy political sell, easy to market to recruits, helps avoid surging costs in long deployments / voyages (that would lead to cuts in ADF program and procurement budgets), including on crew intensive SSNs. Downside is that it is unfair to personnel who need to stay in Australia (and Treasury and Finance would fight it tooth and nail).
 
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Redlands18

Well-Known Member
I suspect increased gross salary would drive recruitment and improved take home pay would drive retention.
A new recruit is more likely to say to self, friends and family “this will be my salary in four years”.
Someone in the job will say “that job looks attractive, but my pay will go down in real terms” (especially with old faithful‘s increments).

Another benefit of the tax break is that it does not come out of the defence budget.

The salary sacrifice (not sure of the international usage of this term but it is the government allowing people to pay for things like cars, retirement income, and childcare with pretax schemes) for nurses is actually an arrangement that applies nationally for the health industry (or at least it did). The tax office traditionally approves such salary sacrifices if they are in an employment agreement. No good reason why it could not be applied to ADF (but it would be of limited attraction to personnel who live on bases or defence housing and aren’t contemplating investment properties).

Another option: tax free income for ADF personnel deployed off shore including at sea (most beneficial to RAN with the biggest workforce problems).

it would be an easy political sell, easy to market to recruits, helps avoid surging costs in long deployments / voyages (that would lead to cuts in ADF program and procurement budgets), including on crew intensive SSNs. Downside is that it is unfair to personnel who need to stay in Australia (and Treasury and Finance would fight it tooth and nail).
You can salary sacrifice rental properties, why not extend it to ADF quarters, both married and single? Qld Health has salary sacrificing available for all employees.
 

Armchair

Well-Known Member
Qld Health has salary sacrificing available for all employees.
yes I was going to mention that (Applies elsewhere too).
These arrangements are normally negotiated industrially. State health employees including admin negotiated (through their unions) salary sacrifice arrangements In enterprise bargaining. If such an agreement is certified the tax office allows it.
ADF personnel don’t have unions but the government could just allow the arrangement you propose. I would have to look it up but I think it would be a matter of regulation (requiring a vote in lower house) rather than legislation. Again Treasury and Finance would hate it (because of the difficulty of forecasting impact on budget and precedents for others on other matters - police and fire fighters do have unions, I don’t think those are good objections to your idea though).
 
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Bob53

Well-Known Member
I have suggested it before, but big tax breaks, incremental with time served, would definitely help, without hurting the economy. It would be a drop in the ocean so to speak. Decrease income tax for service personnel. Simples.
Yep I agree. Make the first $150k a year tax free for defence force employees…not contractors or dept of defence but actual Navy, Army and Airforce staff.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
yes I was going to mention that (Applies elsewhere too).
These arrangements are normally negotiated industrially. State health employees including admin negotiated (through their unions) salary sacrifice arrangements In enterprise bargaining. If such an agreement is certified the tax office allows it.
ADF personnel don’t have unions but the government could just allow the arrangement you propose. I would have to look it up but I think it would be a matter of regulation (requiring a vote in lower house) rather than legislation. Again Treasury and Finance would hate it (because of the difficulty of forecasting impact on budget and precedents for others on other matters - police and fire fighters do have unions, I don’t think those are good objections to your idea though).
The max amount you can claim on Salary Sacrifice for Qld Health is $9000, I save around $2500 on Tax, going on that the loss of Tax revenue for 60,000 ADF personnel would be somewhere between $100m to $200m, that is the cost of training about 5-10 RAAF pilots or an Armidale PB crew or a Boxer Sqn. You would not have to improve retention by a great deal to make up that amount.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Reality check, defence civilians, role for role, below very senior management, are paid substantially less than uniform members, even when they are doing the same job.

I was employed as the manager of a maintenance section in a defence unit, the unit included craftsmen, junior NCOs and contactors. The contractors were paid the most, followed by the NCOs and craftsmen, I, as an APS employee was the lowest paid, on just over 2/3s what a craftsman was paid, and less than half what the contactor was on. I was the oldest, most experienced, most and highest qualified person on the team.

The problem is Australia has fallen into a pattern of over paying the wrong groups, then reactively cherry picking specific employment types and classifications for joining and retention bonuses.

The role I was in required an experienced, paraprofessional technical manager, competent across multiple fields. It would have taken the junior guys in the team a decade or more to build the knowledge and skills, outside of their initial speciality, to do the role. But why would they, the role literally pays substantially less than their current base salary, let alone factoring retention bonuses.

The answer is make staying worth their while, i.e. a DFRB style pension that gets paid after they complete a set period of service and increases with length of service. Do the same with the APS, i.e. you put up with the crap, you get an indexed pension based on your working salary. Oh, and above all, pay market rates.

Another thing they need to do is introduce a security cleared RPL pathway. I could RPL an advanced diploma, or possibly a graduate diploma in project management tomorrow, but for the fact the required work samples are all classified and cannot be used.

Why does this matter? Well I went to switch from technical to PM, but wasn't allowed to because I don't have a PM qualification. Ironically, external candidates, without qualifications, are hired then trained and certified, but because I am internal and already do the work, it is seen to be a waste of money certifying that I can do the work. It only counts when I apply for transfers or promotions, when the person they hired then trained has a leg up under the "Merit" system, because of the training and certification they got, but I didn't because I didn't need it to do the job.

The same happens to uniformed members to a lesser degree. Defence is shocking when it comes to providing civilian recognised qualifications to their people. They think it forces them to stay, what it does is causes resentment and makes them choose to change to a different career all together as they have nothing to lose.
 

Morgo

Well-Known Member
Not so sure about a recession. Yes, applications would increase but falling revenues would mean delays or cancellations on major projects and shrinking inventories on kit in order to fund social benefits. Pollies will always divert funds for electoral survival. Depends on how severe and long the recession is of course.
The exact opposite mate. In a recession the Gov (if they’re competent) will look for as many ways to get money out the door as possible. It’s macroeconomics 101.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It was exactly the right thing to do at the time.

The trick is that the taps weren’t turned off!
That is sadly the story in many countries, neither politicians or voters seem to understand the concept of "temporary measures".

Australia has been forced to make savings in areas that shouldn't be cut, because "temporary measures" where locked in against the greater good.
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
And one of the biggest issues I believe we face across the entire Defence Force is the de-skilling of the rate and badges, too much outsorucing, leads to poor job satisfaction and sense of self and pride in what you do, that tapers away very quick, the outsourcing then wins out as they gain enlisted personell leaving for a better life and money.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
A point I feel important to bring up, as it seems posters especially some of the newer or less active ones have overlooked or forgotten this, is that platform centric discussions whilst popular tend to cover material less important and relevant than system and capability discussions. TBH though, this is probably something which should be brought up with gov't too.

Unless something has gone horribly, horribly wrong, an Australian platform is not going to be fighting in isolation, instead an engagement or conflict is going to be fought by a warfighting system which comprises the capabilities of the ADF and other gov't agencies and assets.

When the focus becomes too much on individual platforms, one can easily lose sight of what actual capabilities are provided (and what is lacking).

Much of the discussion on land-based AShM and/or LACM batteries I would consider to be emblematic of this type problem, because the focus tends to be the launching platform and/or the missiles, whilst ignoring the other system elements which would be required to deliver a warfighting capability.

Similarly, there have been recent suggestions that a change in acquisition paradigm could deliver new naval platforms to the RAN, which is potentially correct. However, even if the suggested potential rapid acquisition path were to be followed, the RAN might end up with new platforms, but still not have new/additional capability because the rapid paths do not have a way to make the new platforms part of Australia's overall warfighting systems. New platforms, featuring new and different systems from those the ADF is used to operating and maintaining would require time for crews to become proficient in their operation and maintenance, as well as time to establish the appropriate supply chains. An early problem the RAN encountered with the Bay-class LSD HMAS Choules is rather illustrative of this with a transformer failure which kept the vessel out of service from mid-2012 until April 2013. IIRC the transformer failed due to some handling issue of the vessel by the crew, which would imply some unfamiliarity a vessel new to RAN service (she had only been in service for ~six months at the time of the failure) and being out of service for ~nine months implies that not all the supply chains were fully established and/or the part which failed was one which would have normally been considered safe or at low risk of failure.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
A point I feel important to bring up, as it seems posters especially some of the newer or less active ones have overlooked or forgotten this, is that platform centric discussions whilst popular tend to cover material less important and relevant than system and capability discussions. TBH though, this is probably something which should be brought up with gov't too.

Unless something has gone horribly, horribly wrong, an Australian platform is not going to be fighting in isolation, instead an engagement or conflict is going to be fought by a warfighting system which comprises the capabilities of the ADF and other gov't agencies and assets.

When the focus becomes too much on individual platforms, one can easily lose sight of what actual capabilities are provided (and what is lacking).

Much of the discussion on land-based AShM and/or LACM batteries I would consider to be emblematic of this type problem, because the focus tends to be the launching platform and/or the missiles, whilst ignoring the other system elements which would be required to deliver a warfighting capability.

Similarly, there have been recent suggestions that a change in acquisition paradigm could deliver new naval platforms to the RAN, which is potentially correct. However, even if the suggested potential rapid acquisition path were to be followed, the RAN might end up with new platforms, but still not have new/additional capability because the rapid paths do not have a way to make the new platforms part of Australia's overall warfighting systems. New platforms, featuring new and different systems from those the ADF is used to operating and maintaining would require time for crews to become proficient in their operation and maintenance, as well as time to establish the appropriate supply chains. An early problem the RAN encountered with the Bay-class LSD HMAS Choules is rather illustrative of this with a transformer failure which kept the vessel out of service from mid-2012 until April 2013. IIRC the transformer failed due to some handling issue of the vessel by the crew, which would imply some unfamiliarity a vessel new to RAN service (she had only been in service for ~six months at the time of the failure) and being out of service for ~nine months implies that not all the supply chains were fully established and/or the part which failed was one which would have normally been considered safe or at low risk of failure.
The Choules "handling issue" reportedly wasn't crew, it was the green meanies (sea training group) simulating a failure by throwing the breaker over and over again. How could that go wrong?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The Choules "handling issue" reportedly wasn't crew, it was the green meanies (sea training group) simulating a failure by throwing the breaker over and over again. How could that go wrong?
I would probably be inclined to just lump them in with the crew. It also appears I remembered more about the issue since I had thought it was someone throwing a breaker repeatedly but was not sure. End result still the same as it was not a good outcome and caused a further shortfall in Oz sealift, during the time of purchase of ADV Ocean Shield in the tenure of a certain MinDef for use as a sealift vessel before being handed over to Australian Customs for service.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
IIRC it was reported at the time that what they did was specifically advised against by operations manuals.
The RAN officer who told us what happened used the term f'ing idiots.

Technically you could say they weren't qualified to do what they did and I do know of MEOs who have told them in no uncertain terms they will not be touching anything.
 

d-ron84

Member
The RAN officer who told us what happened used the term f'ing idiots.

Technically you could say they weren't qualified to do what they did and I do know of MEOs who have told them in no uncertain terms they will not be touching anything.
I've had STG throw a breaker on a certain self defence weapon system was whilst I was conducting deep level diagnostic checks, after I "calmly and politely" explained how they just USed the system they proceeded to tell me that the system "should be more robust"
The CO told STG were not allowed to throw any breakers from then on
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I've known some great people in STG, but some, I think, are there because their reputations have preceded them to other postings.

I've also known a few in different services, sent on long term education programs to upskill and reskill, not so much because they were good and earnt it, but because it got rid of them from their current trade / mustering with less paperwork.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
Yoinking across to a more general discussion....

The RAN may currently carry more non-warlike, diplomatic and constabulary tasks but it could be asked, should they? We have ABF.
Currently to the nature of Operation Sovereign Borders naturally the RAN has a large role to play. But the RAAF plays an equally demanding role.

I do think for now RAN needs to maintain responsibility for patrol and control of current and future assets but one day this may need to change.
Not only should they, but they always will. Even with the biggest, baddest ABF you can think of plus a full strength and capable Coast Guard, it'll be the RAN which has the ability to operate into the Southern Ocean to rescue sailors or capture fisherman. Or chase a fishing vessel 3/4 of the way to South America. It is inherent to a Navy, the things they need for war (equipment, thinking and processes) means they will always have diplomatic and constabulary tasks. And, while the other two will help, the RAN will always carry more...

I think you might be understating the non-warlike tasks of the other services. Peacetime engagements such as overseas training and capacity building, humanitarian and disaster relief (at home and abroad), and cooperative activities with other agencies are generally the role of the Army. But in line with the join forces concept, they generally (especially OS) need the Navy or Air Force to get there. Service rivalry aside we need to be a joint force. We do not want to head down the US path of services competing for funds. This has led to some colossal economic blunders and runs the danger of the military influencing politics, a slippery slope for a liberal democracy.
Not at all. The Army has spent more time doing non-warlike tasks than warlike - even if at least one of those non-warlike tasks saw my helicopters getting shot at. But in discussing the wider range of tasks the RAN carries, it's not service rivalry or the like.

The work we do in the region is essential. Our Sect - Coy sized exchanges and the like are a cornerstone of our defence in building regional relations. And they pay back, as anyone who has seen the deployment of forces to Australia post-disaster in the last couple of years. But, for constabulary tasks these nations generally have their own forces and we have the AFP, and for diplomatic tasks it's very low level. For starters, the biggest Army force we regularly send overseas will have, at most, an O4 in charge. Perfectly fine, very little influence. Normally the ranks are lower. A ship will have at least on O5. There is a subtle, but distinct difference - even within our own nation.

I'm not arguing against a Joint Force. The fact I, as an Army officer, argues for the RAN should indicate it's a very good idea that has inculcated itself within the ADF. But a joint force demands an honest assessment and understanding of roles, including areas one's own service doesn't do well at.

Port visits are great for as a token diplomacy. But an overseas Army presence in the country is deeply engaged politically, and usually are more closely involved with local populations over long periods in a way in which sailors and air personnel are generally not. This sends signals to the host nation, other states and non-state actors. A highly visible and clearly understood presence. This gives a high level of reassurance and offers a level of diplomatic commitment that a ship stationed offshore, simply cannot. The same could be said for disaster relief and Army operations in Australia, the presence of Army personnel rallies, engages and reassures the community in a way that other agencies cannot. During national emergencies its usually (but not always) Army helicopters that typically called to assist. That said, I am sure the sight of Navy ships during the black summer 2019 fires was a sigh of relief to the people of Mallacoota.

A carrier or ship 100 kms off the coast sends a powerful signal to an adversary and to the nation you are supporting, but it is a mixed signal. To the adversary there is significant firepower sitting off our coast, but they don’t care enough to get up close and personal and risk standing between us and our objective. To the nation you are supporting it is yes, we will support you, but not stand shoulder to shoulder with you and face the threat in the mud, suffering in the same way you do.
There is a mix of concepts here, but some are correct and some not.

Generally speaking, in times of peace, Land and Air forces (the latter especially) are not seen by the wider population, much. Their area of influence is much smaller. Look at Pitch Black for instance - lots of 'stuff' for Darwin and Tindal populations, very little (including media) down south. Often such forces rarely leave the base; in my first overseas, non-deployment, trip we spent all our time on the base - we never went outside the wire. A ship visit on the other hand; it gets more media and has a wider impact. If USS Carney were to rock up to Darwin on her way home, the media will be more. This will be increased if she visits Perth or Sydney. And when she does, she'll drop 280-odd people into a CBD - because that's where the ports generally are. That's a Bn or Wg effort. If she comes with another ship those numbers increase. At the pinnacle, Perth, Brisbane, Darwin, and Sydney residents still speak of times when USN carriers have visited...

But even taking the smallest ship, they have outstanding impacts. A mate was the 2IC of one of the MHC to visit Japan. Their trip up and back hit 19 ports, something like 8-10 countries. They worked closely with various DFAT staffs across this, entertained senior foreign personnel on board - all providing a smart, approachable, clear statement of Australian respect and friendship. Sure, the PO's had some work to do the morning they left each port....

When you are attempting deterrence, your thoughts are more on track. The ultimate level of support to a friend is parking a Armoured Bde(+) by their side. Air forces, especially, are simply too movable - there's no guarantee they won't fly away. But you can't do that with heavy units. RAND found this when looking at forward deployed US forces. Which is why, when our 'strategic experts' talk about no role for armour in the region, I think they underestimate the statement that 1 (Armd) Bde (or 3 (Armd) Bde now, I suppose *sigh*) being deployed to, say, Vietnam does. It might not deter, but it'll cause a rethink at least.

Ultimately, it comes back to what are you trying to diplomatically achieve. The ADF is simply another toolbox that DFAT and the Government of the Day has, but like every tool box the contents are varied, and some do better than others.
 
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