1967-India China bordar skirmish.

[dabrownguy]

Does anyone have some sources on 1967 and after bordar clashes? I read one in a magazine and I can't find much on the internet.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

The Chinese have two major claims on what India deems its own territory. One claim, in the western sector, is on Aksai Chin in the northeastern section of Ladakh District in Jammu and Kashmir. The other claim is in the eastern sector over a region included in the British-designated North-East Frontier Agency, the disputed part of which India renamed Arunachal Pradesh and made a state. In the fight over these areas, the well-trained and well-armed troops of the Chinese People's Liberation Army overpowered the ill-equipped Indian troops, who had not been properly acclimatized to fighting at high altitudes.

Unable to reach political accommodation on disputed territory along the 3,225-kilometer-long Himalayan border, the Chinese attacked India on October 20, 1962. At the time, nine divisions from the eastern and western commands were deployed along the Himalayan border with China. None of these divisions was up to its full troop strength, and all were short of artillery, tanks, equipment, and even adequate articles of clothing.

In Ladakh the Chinese attacked south of the Karakoram Pass at the northwest end of the Aksai Chin Plateau and in the Pangong Lake area about 160 kilometers to the southeast. The defending Indian forces were easily ejected from their posts in the area of the Karakoram Pass and from most posts near Pangong Lake. However, they put up spirited resistance at the key posts of Daulat Beg Oldi (near the entrance to the pass) and Chushul (located immediately south of Pangong Lake and at the head of the vital supply road to Leh, a major town and location of an air force base in Ladakh). Other Chinese forces attacked near Demchok (about 160 kilometers southeast of Chusul) and rapidly overran the Demchok and the Jara La posts.

In the eastern sector, in Assam, the Chinese forces advanced easily despite Indian efforts at resistance. On the first day of the fighting, Indian forces stationed at the Tsang Le post on the northern side of the Namka Chu, the Khinzemane post, and near Dhola were overrun. On the western side of the North-East Frontier Agency, Tsang Dar fell on October 22, Bum La on October 23, and Tawang, the headquarters of the Seventh Infantry Brigade, on October 24. The Chinese made an offer to negotiate on October 24. The Indian government promptly rejected this offer.

With a lull in the fighting, the Indian military desperately sought to regroup its forces. Specifically, the army attempted to strengthen its defensive positions in the North-East Frontier Agency and Ladakh and to prepare against possible Chinese attacks through Sikkim and Bhutan. Army units were moved from Calcutta, Bihar, Nagaland, and Punjab to guard the northern frontiers of West Bengal and Assam. Three brigades were hastily positioned in the western part of the North-East Frontier Agency, and two other brigades were moved into Sikkim and near the West Bengal border with Bhutan to face the Chinese. Light Stuart tanks were drawn from the Eastern Command headquarters at Calcutta to bolster these deployments.

In the western sector, a divisional organization was established in Leh; several battalions of infantry, a battery of twenty-five-pounder guns, and two troops of AMX light tanks were airlifted into the Chushul area from Punjab. On November 4, the Indian military decided that the post at Daulat Beg Oldi was untenable, and its defenders were withdrawn over the 5,300-meter-high Sasar Brangsa Pass to a more defensible position.

The reinforcements and redeployments in Ladakh proved sufficient to defend the Chushul perimeter despite repeated Chinese attacks. However, the more remote posts at Rezang La and Gurung Hill and the four posts at Spanggur Lake area fell to the Chinese.

In the North-East Frontier Agency, the situation proved to be quite different. Indian forces counterattacked on November 13 and captured a hill northwest of the town of Walong. Concerted Chinese attacks dislodged them from this hard-won position, and the nearby garrison had to retreat down the Lohit Valley.

In another important section of the eastern sector, the Kameng Frontier Division, six Chinese brigades attacked across the Tawang Chu near Jang and advanced some sixteen kilometers to the southeast to attack Indian positions at Nurang, near Se La, on November 17. Despite the Indian attempt to regroup their forces at Se La, the Chinese continued their onslaught, wiping out virtually all Indian resistance in Kameng. By November 18, the Chinese had penetrated close to the outskirts of Tezpur, Assam, a major frontier town nearly fifty kilometers from the Assam-North-East Frontier Agency border.

The Chinese did not advance farther and on November 21 declared a unilateral cease-fire. They had accomplished all of their territorial objectives, and any attempt to press farther into the plains of Assam would have stretched their logistical capabilities and their lines of communication to a breaking point. By the time the fighting stopped, each side had lost 500 troops.

India considers recurring Sino-Indian border clashes a potential threat to its security. Since the war, each side continued to improve its military and logistics capabilities in the disputed regions. China has continued its occupation of the Aksai Chin area, through which it built a strategic highway linking Xizang and Xinjiang autonomous regions. China had a vital military interest in maintaining control over this region, whereas India's primary interest lay in Arunachal Pradesh, its state in the northeast bordering Xizang Autonomous Region.

In 1987, although India enjoyed air superiority, rough parity on the ground existed between the two military forces, which had a combined total of nearly 400,000 troops near the border. The Indian Army deployed eleven divisions in the region, backed up by paramilitary forces, whereas the PLA had fifteen divisions available for operations on the border. After a 1986 border clash and India's conversion of Arunachal Pradesh from union territory to state, tensions between China and India escalated. Both sides moved to reinforce their capabilities in the area, but neither ruled out further negotiations of their dispute. Most observers believe that the mountainous terrain, high-altitude climate, and concomitant logistic difficulties made it unlikely that a protracted or larges-cale conflict would erupt on the Sino-Indian border.

Negotiations since the 1962 Sino-Indian border war have taken place to resolve the conflicting border claims. After more than thirty years of border tension and stalemate, high-level bilateral talks were held in New Delhi starting in February 1994 to foster "confidence-building measures" between the defense forces of India and China, and a new period of better relations began.

Perhaps this article from Globalsecurity.org will answer some questions for you.

 

[SABRE]

The Chinese PM after the war said that they had no intentions of war. We went there (To India) for peaceful talk in we returned with an insult n threats. Apperently the war is said have been started when some one threw a stone from Indian side to Chinese. The Stone hit the head of a Chinese Soldier n Chinese replied it with a single builet fired towards Indian border. Than Indians opened all of their guns. (I dnt knw if its true or not)

Anyways recently Chinese President said tht they no longer hold interest in Aranchal Pardesh or what ever it is,this he said when Indian PM Vajpayee visited China but When Advani asked for the return of Ladakh land Chinese said tht part can only be given to Pakistan as that part holds contiguity with Kashmir n we support Pakistan on Kashmir. After that Advani has always been giving statements that to start peace talks Pakistan must ask back the PArt of Kashmir it gave to China (Chuen Li offered the land to FM Ayub Khan when he visited Pakistan after Indo-China war but Ayub Khan decided to let the Chinese keep the land untill Kashmir issue is solved.This is because Ladakh doesnt hold contiguity with Pakistan's land n it can also play importent role in Pak-China's Defence against India, which it did in 1965. China deployed its forces to distract Indian Soldiers stationed in Kashmir , this gave PAk army great support- the land is still with China untill the Kashmir exceeds to Pakistan).

Anyways the main point here is tht China says it dint have much interests in the land it took from India except few areas where Chinese were in majority. So I dnt realy see China making the first move. On the other hand India had been bothering China quite alot on Tibat issue n threatened to attack.

I dnt knw who started the war. All I knw Chinese won n I dnt even care abt that. There is a book written by a British Soldier who has written the entire event. I dnt knw the name, I ll ask some one than tell ya but I ve seen alot of articals related to Indo-China War on the net. try Searching on Yahoo, GooGle and altavista.

 

[Mr. Happyman]

Perhaps i am assuming too much but keep in mind Mao Zedong was in power at the time and i guess some of his expansionist tendencies might have begun the war. Who knows for sure maybe it was the Indians. All we know for sure was the outcome.

 

[mysterious]

I read somewhere too a couple of days back that threats from the Indian side made the Chinese lose their temper. Will try and search up the articles that I read. Until then dont want to make more comments cuz it might start up flames in here.

 

[berry580]

As far as I'm concerned, China wasn't the one who declared war.

What I heard was something like-

Both sides were in great tension, and China's leader's aim was to prevent war.
When the Indians had gathered their troops, the PLA troops were then ordered to retreat X km hoping to prevent the conflict and Indians took advantage of it and advanced, it happened again, and finally, the PLA was ordered to regain the territory the Indians advanced over.
The Chinese were winning in one battlefield, and losing in another side, and the Chinese ended up losing some land (like a land exchange, with loss).

 

[dabrownguy]

I believe the blame was on poor diplomacy. India and China did not have any relationships to begin with. No map exchanges etc...

 

[Pathfinder-X]

As far as I'm concerned, China wasn't the one who declared war.

What I heard was something like-

Both sides were in great tension, and China's leader's aim was to prevent war.
When the Indians had gathered their troops, the PLA troops were then ordered to retreat X km hoping to prevent the conflict and Indians took advantage of it and advanced, it happened again, and finally, the PLA was ordered to regain the territory the Indians advanced over.
The Chinese were winning in one battlefield, and losing in another side, and the Chinese ended up losing some land (like a land exchange, with loss).

Actually, China retreated because of their over stretched supply lines through the mountains. The reason for the Chinese victory was the India was not prepared, they didn't have enough equipment to begin with. China did not lose any land, it retreated back to where the they were before the skirmish. Casualties on both sides is about 500.

 

[dabrownguy]

You mean 5000 each.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

no I mean about 500 dead on each side, don't know the number of wounded.

 

[neel24neo]

Actually, China retreated because of their over stretched supply lines through the mountains. The reason for the Chinese victory was the India was not prepared, they didn't have enough equipment to begin with. China did not lose any land, it retreated back to where the they were before the skirmish. Casualties on both sides is about 500.

you are right pathfinder.india wasnt prepared for war.even when the chinese advanced,indian political leadership did not seriously think they were going to take over indian territory.remember the years before that were the days of panchasheel and voices of "hindi chini bhai bhai"(indians and chinese are brothers).indian leadership had given specific instructions to indian soldiers not to fire until fired upon.the reason for defeat is obvious,indians werent prepared to fight a war and strangely it is said that indian generals wanted the chinese to come down to the assam plains face off with them there.chinese never ventured that far.whatever territory they claimed,they had taken it by then.

 

[TRK]

But why did the Chinese took the Indian territories? On what bases did they said that the land belongs to China i.e. (The China Occupied Kashmir & Arunachal Pradesh). Please explain

Secondly now what is the situation? How are the territories divided?

 

[ajay_ijn]

But why did the Chinese took the Indian territories? On what bases did they said that the land belongs to China i.e. (The China Occupied Kashmir & Arunachal Pradesh). Please explain

Becoz they occupied in the war like the Tibet.
We can say that India was not in a position to wage a war against a Superior China in 1960's.
Even though position of India is much improved now,She lags behind China in many fields.
In my opinion we better maintain Strict Neutrality with them in the future too.
India Shouldn't be too Close nor we must be aggressive with them.
India must better Avoid China till the worst Case(Nuke war) Situation Comes.

Secondly now what is the situation? How are the territories divided?

Situation is still not resolved till now,Even in the recent times China Claims Sikkim as their Terrority.Already they have parts of Kashmir,Arunachal Pradesh.
That is why Indian Military buyz and develops Weapons that are Chinese Specific.
Weapons like Agni-II,ATV,H-bombs etc many like that are to counter China.

Indian Govt is not seriously trying to resolve border Conflict.Instead India wants to have better Trade relations.
Indo-China Trade is more than 1.2 Billion Dollars per year and likely to increase much in the future.
In my City,I see many Shopping centers named China Bazaar.Chinese goods offered at much lower cost than Indian one.

The Worst Strategic Scenario for India would be, In the Future if India has Some Conflict with Pakistan then India's biggest fear would be attack from China.
So India needs to divert Considerable Military Resources against China though the Actual Conflict is with Pakistan.
However with all three becoming Nuke Capable,That Situation is unlikely to Occur.

Recent news Indian Army Chief Visted China.


http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-12/28/xin_25120128143813295809.jpg

Good to see Indian Chief and Chinese deputy Chief together Saluting.
This shows now both have Small Amount of Army Cooperation.

Another news Says India to hold first Strategic Dialogue with China on Jan 24.

This Kind of Realtionship would be perfect and must be maintained in future too.

 

[Rolex]

Even in the recent times China Claims Sikkim as their Terrority.Already they have parts of Kashmir,Arunachal Pradesh.
Indian Govt is not seriously trying to resolve border Conflict.Instead India wants to have better Trade relations.

During the BJP rule, there were progress in the border dispute, India accepted chinese position in tibet and china accepted sikkim as an integral part of India...
The other issues will be solved soon... India is with a proposal 'askai chin for arunachal pradesh'... Which is impressive coz Askai chin is not of much use for India but for the chinese it is very important coz it connects its eastern province(some X.....G) with the other areas., There is a highway through askai chin connecting the areas.,
And arunachal pradesh has been declared a state by the indian government and the chinese are not much interested in it(IMO)

 

[Rolex]

Even in the recent times China Claims Sikkim as their Terrority.Already they have parts of Kashmir,Arunachal Pradesh.
Indian Govt is not seriously trying to resolve border Conflict.Instead India wants to have better Trade relations.

During the BJP rule, there were progress in the border dispute, India accepted chinese position in tibet and china accepted sikkim as an integral part of India...
The other issues will be solved soon... India is with a proposal 'askai chin for arunachal pradesh'... Which is impressive coz Askai chin is not of much use for India but for the chinese it is very important coz it connects its eastern province(some X.....G) with the other areas., There is a highway through askai chin connecting the areas.,
And arunachal pradesh has been declared a state by the indian government and the chinese are not much interested in it(IMO)
And guys.. the topic is 1967 skirmish!! and we discuss about the 1962 war all the time... What happened in 1967??

 

[fockewulf190]

hi guys... there was another border skirmish, I donno the exact time but was during the early 80s.. where the indian army retaliated wit whatever they got..which include heavy mountain guns. I thried to scerch in the internet but I cannot find any link wit a good description... can any one share a light on it????
please

 

[vrus]

Check this out !!! :-

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ve:~Chinese~army~enters~into~Indian~territory

Mistake or pre-meditated ?

 

[mysterious]

Hey! Where are the Mods? As far as I know, this forum has banned discussion being taken to the track of political discussions! As far as I can see, this thread hasn't even come close to discussing the military aspects of the Indo-China war but has only dragged itself on the basis of political slurs by supporters of either side! People are still quarelling over who owns what part of land when that type of discussion is already banned here at DT. So people! Discuss the military aspects of the war and issues that orginiated and/or were the cause and what not. If that is too much to ask of you guys, I'd urge the Admin people to show some tough love in here!

 

[highsea]

Take it easy Myst, there are no problems here. This is the military history forum, the topic is allowed. I haven't seen any flaming or posturing going on, but I agree with you that there hasn't been much discussion on the 1967 clash.

Vrus- don't post links without comment. If you want to tie in the recent incursion with the topic, go ahead, but give us your reasons for including it, don't just go "Hey looky here!"

Carry on, but try to stick to the topic.

 

[fockewulf190]

well Vrus that not the one I mean, I am intrested in the History, It was during the time of Indira Gandhi if I am correct..... and the place name starts wit 'S'... but I don't know which province on India it is. I really would like to know.

Mysterious... hi, I am just intrested in the facts thats all, am not trying to inflame anyone.