Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

cdxbow

Well-Known Member
I agree that the AI is the important part. Ultimately I suspect it will be a transferable technology that will be incorporated into many different platforms in many different domains. I imagine that it will find itself not only in drones but also in missiles. Imagine an AI cruise missile with full situational awareness. It could serve as a co-pilot in manned aircraft and in fact would not even need to be aboard the aircraft it is controlling. No reason why it couldn't eventually replace human operators for Tritons and reapers.

AI could be is a completely disruptive technology.
Agree there is a lot that could be done with it, depends mainly on the size of the hardware (processors and sensors) if it can be fitted to very small airframes like missiles or small drones. I have not been able to find out what hardware and software they use, which is probably not so surprising. If it is small enough to fit in missiles makes our sovereign missile production even more appealing. I really hope the CoA owns the IP to the smarts, and not Boeing.
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
Necessary to handle JSF operations and other advanced capabilities I would suggest...

As usual, nothing whatsoever about base hardening…
The base already has a series of hardened shelters for aircraft.
See:
What else is involved in base hardening?
MB
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The base already has a series of hardened shelters for aircraft.
See:
What else is involved in base hardening?
MB
Off the top of my head? Fuel storage, C2 nodes, repair and upgrade capabilities, fire-fighting equipment and vehicles, ordnance storage and preparation areas, barracks…

Quite an extensive list that will reduce your aviation capability to quite little if it cannot withstand being shot at…
 
Last edited:

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Australia's only carnivorous bat, it's a good name. Ghost Bat - The Australian Museum
Will the development program keep the Loyal Wingman moniker?
Hahahahahahahaha......Ghost bat, that is soooo funny.....maybe only funny to infantry.
If I were to translate that in Infantry speak.
Ghost Bat would = a sneaky wank! Or tactical wank.
 

Hoffy

Member
Hahahahahahahaha......Ghost bat, that is soooo funny.....maybe only funny to infantry.
If I were to translate that in Infantry speak.
Ghost Bat would = a sneaky wank! Or tactical wank.
From Australian Defence Magazine:

Boeing details MQ-28A payload ground test phase - Australian Defence Magazine

It hints at armed capabilities , and discussions with countries outside of the Five Eyes Alliance in relation to potential exports.
Dutton obviously isn't discussing how many will end up in service.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Hahahahahahahaha......Ghost bat, that is soooo funny.....maybe only funny to infantry.
If I were to translate that in Infantry speak.
Ghost Bat would = a sneaky wank! Or tactical wank.
If Peter Dutton has his way there will be infantry forces all around the planet calling in for a sneaky wank air support.
The success of the Turkish Bayraktar UAV against Russian forces is the sort publicity that money just can't buy for unmanned systems. We might be able to thank the Chinese for creating a potentially big market in this region as well.
 

DDG38

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Ah yes, Bob is back with another country saving suggestion to free us from his most hated aircraft (Australian article sourced via Defence subscription) :
"Australia must ramp up air defence, particularly as China’s ‘Mighty Dragon’ is far superior
ROBERT GOTTLIEBSEN
8:14AM MARCH 31, 2022

When Peter Dutton became defence minister almost exactly a year ago our defence equipment standing in the region was complete joke. The termination of the French submarine disaster and its replacement with access to US nuclear technology started our nation on the long road to gain defence respect.

But we will never gain full respect in the region while we have no worthwhile air defence particularly as the Chinese “Mighty Dragon” – the Chengdu J-20 – is far superior to any other aircraft regularly operating in our region.

Until now being competitive in regional skies seemed an unattainable goal because the only aircraft that rivals the J-20 is the American F-22 and the US ceased production of the F-22 believing the Joint Strike Fighter- F-35 would fill the gap. We agreed to buy the JSF-F35 and it was a disastrous mistake by both the US and Australia.

Suddenly an amazing never to be repeated opportunity has arisen. I plead with Peter Dutton and his assistant minister Andrew Hastie plus shadow defence minister Richard Marles (whom the opinion polls say will be defence minister in a few weeks) to make investigating this opportunity the highest national defence priority.

According to the authoritative US defence newsletter War Zone, the US Air Force is seeking to retire 33 F-22A Raptor Stealth fighters which would reduce its total F-22 fleet size from around 186 to some 153.

The US relationship with Australia is now close as displayed by the AUKUS deal that sees us in time acquiring submarines with US nuclear technology. Currently only the UK has access to this technology.

The US has been similarly been very protective of its F-22 technology but in the wake of AUKUS would almost certainly be interested in considering an Australian proposal to lease the 33 F-22 aircraft. There are three obvious questions:

Why is the US looking to retire the F-22? Can we update the aircraft so that it is competitive with the J-20 and does an aircraft out of production in the US have a future?

The F-22 first flew around 1997 and was the only fifth-generation fighter in existence and gave the US global air superiority. But it was expensive and at the turn of the century its primary adversary, the Soviet air force, was in trouble. The US air budget was stretched by wars in Iraq and Afghanistan plus the 2008-10 recession.

US defence people believed the US could develop a much cheaper and better fifth generation aircraft — the JSF. But the JSF failed in those aims and China developed the J-20 as a rival to the F-22 – an event no one in the US thought possible.

Fast forward to 2023. The JSF-F35 in its present form has limited capabilities and cannot fly at the height achieved by the J-20. it is also unreliable, has limited flying range and is very expensive.

The US Air Force has slashed its purchases of the JSF by one third until a new Block4 software system is developed which it hopes will fix some of the problems. . Australia has taken delivery of part of its order but our aircraft need that new software (which we will pay for) and even then it will be vulnerable to the J-20

The US Air Force wants to purchase more F-15 EX Eagle 11 24 fighter jets which are ready for combat. This is an aircraft that first flew 36 years ago – well before the F-22 – but has been updated.

Meanwhile, one of the F-22 bases was hit by a cyclone and because it is not being manufactured, the F-22 is something of an ugly duckling. The F-22 jets on the chopping block are all older versions and are largely relegated to training and other non-combat duties.

The US air force says that it would take $US1.8bn ($A2.40bn) over the next eight years to bring those jets up to the latest standard – funds that it wants to spend on ‘fixing’ the JSF-F35 and upgrading other F-22’s.

Given the US is looking to retire the aircraft, Australia’s base leasing costs should be nil but the aircraft need up grading and new facilities will be required. Air Power Australia’s preliminary estimate of the cost is $US10bn, spread over some years. It sounds a lot but we can stop delivery of the JSF and maybe the US will fund some if the huge costs of making our existing JSF more useful.

Once we are working with the Americans on modernising the F-22 we might be able to show them how the JSF manufacturing pipeline could be used to make F-22’s.

The bureaucracy in both countries will be a problem, especially in Australia.

Peter Dutton’s biggest mistake as defence minister was not to clean out the management that led us into our defence mess. They are still there so whether the defence Minister be Dutton or Marles he will not have the talents in the public service to take the opportunity. Advice and help outside the public service is available."
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Ah yes, Bob is back with another country saving suggestion to free us from his most hated aircraft (Australian article sourced via Defence subscription) :
"Australia must ramp up air defence, particularly as China’s ‘Mighty Dragon’ is far superior
ROBERT GOTTLIEBSEN
8:14AM MARCH 31, 2022

When Peter Dutton became defence minister almost exactly a year ago our defence equipment standing in the region was complete joke. The termination of the French submarine disaster and its replacement with access to US nuclear technology started our nation on the long road to gain defence respect.

But we will never gain full respect in the region while we have no worthwhile air defence particularly as the Chinese “Mighty Dragon” – the Chengdu J-20 – is far superior to any other aircraft regularly operating in our region.

Until now being competitive in regional skies seemed an unattainable goal because the only aircraft that rivals the J-20 is the American F-22 and the US ceased production of the F-22 believing the Joint Strike Fighter- F-35 would fill the gap. We agreed to buy the JSF-F35 and it was a disastrous mistake by both the US and Australia.

Suddenly an amazing never to be repeated opportunity has arisen. I plead with Peter Dutton and his assistant minister Andrew Hastie plus shadow defence minister Richard Marles (whom the opinion polls say will be defence minister in a few weeks) to make investigating this opportunity the highest national defence priority.

According to the authoritative US defence newsletter War Zone, the US Air Force is seeking to retire 33 F-22A Raptor Stealth fighters which would reduce its total F-22 fleet size from around 186 to some 153.

The US relationship with Australia is now close as displayed by the AUKUS deal that sees us in time acquiring submarines with US nuclear technology. Currently only the UK has access to this technology.

The US has been similarly been very protective of its F-22 technology but in the wake of AUKUS would almost certainly be interested in considering an Australian proposal to lease the 33 F-22 aircraft. There are three obvious questions:

Why is the US looking to retire the F-22? Can we update the aircraft so that it is competitive with the J-20 and does an aircraft out of production in the US have a future?

The F-22 first flew around 1997 and was the only fifth-generation fighter in existence and gave the US global air superiority. But it was expensive and at the turn of the century its primary adversary, the Soviet air force, was in trouble. The US air budget was stretched by wars in Iraq and Afghanistan plus the 2008-10 recession.

US defence people believed the US could develop a much cheaper and better fifth generation aircraft — the JSF. But the JSF failed in those aims and China developed the J-20 as a rival to the F-22 – an event no one in the US thought possible.

Fast forward to 2023. The JSF-F35 in its present form has limited capabilities and cannot fly at the height achieved by the J-20. it is also unreliable, has limited flying range and is very expensive.

The US Air Force has slashed its purchases of the JSF by one third until a new Block4 software system is developed which it hopes will fix some of the problems. . Australia has taken delivery of part of its order but our aircraft need that new software (which we will pay for) and even then it will be vulnerable to the J-20

The US Air Force wants to purchase more F-15 EX Eagle 11 24 fighter jets which are ready for combat. This is an aircraft that first flew 36 years ago – well before the F-22 – but has been updated.

Meanwhile, one of the F-22 bases was hit by a cyclone and because it is not being manufactured, the F-22 is something of an ugly duckling. The F-22 jets on the chopping block are all older versions and are largely relegated to training and other non-combat duties.

The US air force says that it would take $US1.8bn ($A2.40bn) over the next eight years to bring those jets up to the latest standard – funds that it wants to spend on ‘fixing’ the JSF-F35 and upgrading other F-22’s.

Given the US is looking to retire the aircraft, Australia’s base leasing costs should be nil but the aircraft need up grading and new facilities will be required. Air Power Australia’s preliminary estimate of the cost is $US10bn, spread over some years. It sounds a lot but we can stop delivery of the JSF and maybe the US will fund some if the huge costs of making our existing JSF more useful.

Once we are working with the Americans on modernising the F-22 we might be able to show them how the JSF manufacturing pipeline could be used to make F-22’s.

The bureaucracy in both countries will be a problem, especially in Australia.

Peter Dutton’s biggest mistake as defence minister was not to clean out the management that led us into our defence mess. They are still there so whether the defence Minister be Dutton or Marles he will not have the talents in the public service to take the opportunity. Advice and help outside the public service is available."
One has to wonder if he has ever heard of the Obey Amendment. I suspect that answer would be, "no."

I also find it 'interesting' albeit not surprising that he has not stopped to consider why the USAF will be retiring older versions of the F-22 Raptor which are largely being utilized for training and non-combat duties, rather than committing the resources to upgrade those versions to the current/latest standard of the F-22. I have my own suspicions on why the USAF would do this, which largely centre on the costs to upgrade outweighing the service needs, and/or the F-22 demand having been found to be somewhat diminished give the capabilities of other USAF combat aircraft.

Still interesting to see that the author remains such an anti F-35 character who apparently still references APA. I had thought they had largely given up or become defunct years ago.
 

Morgo

Well-Known Member

cdxbow

Well-Known Member
Ah yes, Bob is back with another country saving suggestion to free us from his most hated aircraft (Australian article sourced via Defence subscription) :
"Australia must ramp up air defence, particularly as China’s ‘Mighty Dragon’ is far superior
ROBERT GOTTLIEBSEN
8:14AM MARCH 31, 2022

When Peter Dutton became defence minister almost exactly a year ago our defence equipment standing in the region was complete joke. The termination of the French submarine disaster and its replacement with access to US nuclear technology started our nation on the long road to gain defence respect.

But we will never gain full respect in the region while we have no worthwhile air defence particularly as the Chinese “Mighty Dragon” – the Chengdu J-20 – is far superior to any other aircraft regularly operating in our region.

Until now being competitive in regional skies seemed an unattainable goal because the only aircraft that rivals the J-20 is the American F-22 and the US ceased production of the F-22 believing the Joint Strike Fighter- F-35 would fill the gap. We agreed to buy the JSF-F35 and it was a disastrous mistake by both the US and Australia.

Suddenly an amazing never to be repeated opportunity has arisen. I plead with Peter Dutton and his assistant minister Andrew Hastie plus shadow defence minister Richard Marles (whom the opinion polls say will be defence minister in a few weeks) to make investigating this opportunity the highest national defence priority.

According to the authoritative US defence newsletter War Zone, the US Air Force is seeking to retire 33 F-22A Raptor Stealth fighters which would reduce its total F-22 fleet size from around 186 to some 153.

The US relationship with Australia is now close as displayed by the AUKUS deal that sees us in time acquiring submarines with US nuclear technology. Currently only the UK has access to this technology.

The US has been similarly been very protective of its F-22 technology but in the wake of AUKUS would almost certainly be interested in considering an Australian proposal to lease the 33 F-22 aircraft. There are three obvious questions:

Why is the US looking to retire the F-22? Can we update the aircraft so that it is competitive with the J-20 and does an aircraft out of production in the US have a future?

The F-22 first flew around 1997 and was the only fifth-generation fighter in existence and gave the US global air superiority. But it was expensive and at the turn of the century its primary adversary, the Soviet air force, was in trouble. The US air budget was stretched by wars in Iraq and Afghanistan plus the 2008-10 recession.

US defence people believed the US could develop a much cheaper and better fifth generation aircraft — the JSF. But the JSF failed in those aims and China developed the J-20 as a rival to the F-22 – an event no one in the US thought possible.

Fast forward to 2023. The JSF-F35 in its present form has limited capabilities and cannot fly at the height achieved by the J-20. it is also unreliable, has limited flying range and is very expensive.

The US Air Force has slashed its purchases of the JSF by one third until a new Block4 software system is developed which it hopes will fix some of the problems. . Australia has taken delivery of part of its order but our aircraft need that new software (which we will pay for) and even then it will be vulnerable to the J-20

The US Air Force wants to purchase more F-15 EX Eagle 11 24 fighter jets which are ready for combat. This is an aircraft that first flew 36 years ago – well before the F-22 – but has been updated.

Meanwhile, one of the F-22 bases was hit by a cyclone and because it is not being manufactured, the F-22 is something of an ugly duckling. The F-22 jets on the chopping block are all older versions and are largely relegated to training and other non-combat duties.

The US air force says that it would take $US1.8bn ($A2.40bn) over the next eight years to bring those jets up to the latest standard – funds that it wants to spend on ‘fixing’ the JSF-F35 and upgrading other F-22’s.

Given the US is looking to retire the aircraft, Australia’s base leasing costs should be nil but the aircraft need up grading and new facilities will be required. Air Power Australia’s preliminary estimate of the cost is $US10bn, spread over some years. It sounds a lot but we can stop delivery of the JSF and maybe the US will fund some if the huge costs of making our existing JSF more useful.

Once we are working with the Americans on modernising the F-22 we might be able to show them how the JSF manufacturing pipeline could be used to make F-22’s.

The bureaucracy in both countries will be a problem, especially in Australia.

Peter Dutton’s biggest mistake as defence minister was not to clean out the management that led us into our defence mess. They are still there so whether the defence Minister be Dutton or Marles he will not have the talents in the public service to take the opportunity. Advice and help outside the public service is available."
I'm glad you posted that, as it was behind the Oz paywall and my 'Bypass Paywall' extension no longer works for Murdoch's sites. This article confirms Gottliebsen is one of the most stupid human beings on the planet. One nanosecond of thought would tell you it's a bad idea. I'm not missing much not being able to read the Oz, am I?
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Those F-22 will be beaten to death so any parts that wouldn't need to be updated/upgraded would need to be replaced, before you know it you are rebuilding an aircraft with 95% new parts... Such a small number work needed I could see an easy $6 billion just in costs to buy and get them up to spec not counting spares or O&S. all in all the financial cost could probably allow us to double our F-35 fleet ..

As to the J-20 well it's capabilities are all speculation. Long range sure but needs external tanks which takes away from the stealth so they comparing apples and oranges. Nore does it account for what maintenance it requires, remember when the PLAAF was running incursions into Taiwanese airspace it was also found they were constantly rotating units as was speculated that their aircraft couldn't handle the tempo and where breaking down faster then they were doing their sorties. Has the J-20 improved on this or does it still suffer same speculated issues? If it does then APA and others are asking us to bugger up our well rounded aerial capabilities to fight a show pony that isn't even in range to reach any of our external territories let alone key mainland locations.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Ah yes, Bob is back with another country saving suggestion to free us from his most hated aircraft (Australian article sourced via Defence subscription) :
"Australia must ramp up air defence, particularly as China’s ‘Mighty Dragon’ is far superior
ROBERT GOTTLIEBSEN
8:14AM MARCH 31, 2022

When Peter Dutton became defence minister almost exactly a year ago our defence equipment standing in the region was complete joke. The termination of the French submarine disaster and its replacement with access to US nuclear technology started our nation on the long road to gain defence respect.

But we will never gain full respect in the region while we have no worthwhile air defence particularly as the Chinese “Mighty Dragon” – the Chengdu J-20 – is far superior to any other aircraft regularly operating in our region.

Until now being competitive in regional skies seemed an unattainable goal because the only aircraft that rivals the J-20 is the American F-22 and the US ceased production of the F-22 believing the Joint Strike Fighter- F-35 would fill the gap. We agreed to buy the JSF-F35 and it was a disastrous mistake by both the US and Australia.

Suddenly an amazing never to be repeated opportunity has arisen. I plead with Peter Dutton and his assistant minister Andrew Hastie plus shadow defence minister Richard Marles (whom the opinion polls say will be defence minister in a few weeks) to make investigating this opportunity the highest national defence priority.

According to the authoritative US defence newsletter War Zone, the US Air Force is seeking to retire 33 F-22A Raptor Stealth fighters which would reduce its total F-22 fleet size from around 186 to some 153.

The US relationship with Australia is now close as displayed by the AUKUS deal that sees us in time acquiring submarines with US nuclear technology. Currently only the UK has access to this technology.

The US has been similarly been very protective of its F-22 technology but in the wake of AUKUS would almost certainly be interested in considering an Australian proposal to lease the 33 F-22 aircraft. There are three obvious questions:

Why is the US looking to retire the F-22? Can we update the aircraft so that it is competitive with the J-20 and does an aircraft out of production in the US have a future?

The F-22 first flew around 1997 and was the only fifth-generation fighter in existence and gave the US global air superiority. But it was expensive and at the turn of the century its primary adversary, the Soviet air force, was in trouble. The US air budget was stretched by wars in Iraq and Afghanistan plus the 2008-10 recession.

US defence people believed the US could develop a much cheaper and better fifth generation aircraft — the JSF. But the JSF failed in those aims and China developed the J-20 as a rival to the F-22 – an event no one in the US thought possible.

Fast forward to 2023. The JSF-F35 in its present form has limited capabilities and cannot fly at the height achieved by the J-20. it is also unreliable, has limited flying range and is very expensive.

The US Air Force has slashed its purchases of the JSF by one third until a new Block4 software system is developed which it hopes will fix some of the problems. . Australia has taken delivery of part of its order but our aircraft need that new software (which we will pay for) and even then it will be vulnerable to the J-20

The US Air Force wants to purchase more F-15 EX Eagle 11 24 fighter jets which are ready for combat. This is an aircraft that first flew 36 years ago – well before the F-22 – but has been updated.

Meanwhile, one of the F-22 bases was hit by a cyclone and because it is not being manufactured, the F-22 is something of an ugly duckling. The F-22 jets on the chopping block are all older versions and are largely relegated to training and other non-combat duties.

The US air force says that it would take $US1.8bn ($A2.40bn) over the next eight years to bring those jets up to the latest standard – funds that it wants to spend on ‘fixing’ the JSF-F35 and upgrading other F-22’s.

Given the US is looking to retire the aircraft, Australia’s base leasing costs should be nil but the aircraft need up grading and new facilities will be required. Air Power Australia’s preliminary estimate of the cost is $US10bn, spread over some years. It sounds a lot but we can stop delivery of the JSF and maybe the US will fund some if the huge costs of making our existing JSF more useful.

Once we are working with the Americans on modernising the F-22 we might be able to show them how the JSF manufacturing pipeline could be used to make F-22’s.

The bureaucracy in both countries will be a problem, especially in Australia.

Peter Dutton’s biggest mistake as defence minister was not to clean out the management that led us into our defence mess. They are still there so whether the defence Minister be Dutton or Marles he will not have the talents in the public service to take the opportunity. Advice and help outside the public service is available."
Seriously?

Old Bob is a complete fu*kwit and a moron too.

It’s no wonder us oldies here on DT have contempt for Defence reporting in the general media (some of the Defence media isn’t much better either).

I’d love for old Bob to join DT and post this garbage himself.

How long would it take for him to get banned? An hour max??
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Seriously?

Old Bob is a complete fu*kwit and a moron too.

It’s no wonder us oldies here on DT have contempt for Defence reporting in the general media (some of the Defence media isn’t much better either).

I’d love for old Bob to join DT and post this garbage himself.

How long would it take for him to get banned? An hour max??
I don't know. The Mods might allow him to stay for a while as entertainment winding you up :D
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Well this is a strange decision if correct, apparently Officials confirmed in Senate Estimates that the MQ-9B is going to be cancelled. Apparently to free up staff for the Australian Signals Directive initiative announced in the Budget.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Well this is a strange decision if correct, apparently Officials confirmed in Senate Estimates that the MQ-9B is going to be cancelled. Apparently to free up staff for the Australian Signals Directive initiative announced in the Budget.
Was just about to post the same link. I was already disappointed with a number of aspects of the latest defence budget. Now I am just gobsmacked! I have not been a fan of APDR in recent years but on this occasion I agree with Kim Bergmann's comment that cancelling this project makes no sense.

Tas
 

buffy9

Well-Known Member
Was just about to post the same link. I was already disappointed with a number of aspects of the latest defence budget. Now I am just gobsmacked! I have not been a fan of APDR in recent years but on this occasion I agree with Kim Bergmann's comment that cancelling this project makes no sense.

Tas

As bitter as it might be I'm largely supportive. An enlarged and more capable ASD, able to conduct any variety of mission globally, is a better asset to have than the RPAS (as useful as increased ISR, OS and maritime surveillance may be).

The decision seems to allign with US intentions and plans. While there is hope for their use in a peer environment, as the TB2 shows, it remains less flexible and overall capable compared to ASD as a whole.

...
 

cdxbow

Well-Known Member

As bitter as it might be I'm largely supportive. An enlarged and more capable ASD, able to conduct any variety of mission globally, is a better asset to have than the RPAS (as useful as increased ISR, OS and maritime surveillance may be).

The decision seems to allign with US intentions and plans. While there is hope for their use in a peer environment, as the TB2 shows, it remains less flexible and overall capable compared to ASD as a whole.

...
I disagree.
If they don't have an alternative ready to go then it's just idiocy.
So which platform are we actually waiting for?
How long do we wait?
We need capabilities we can add quickly, the MQ9B is the sort of thing that can be added easily, quickly and with little risk.
Bird in the hand etc..
 

SteveR

Active Member
I disagree.
If they don't have an alternative ready to go then it's just idiocy.
So which platform are we actually waiting for?
How long do we wait?
We need capabilities we can add quickly, the MQ9B is the sort of thing that can be added easily, quickly and with little risk.
Bird in the hand etc..
Less than a week ago the proposed FY23 budget showed that USAF would cease buying MQ-9As and would transfer others to another US agency - assumed to be CIA. ADF has recently selected the Boeing Insitu Integrator/Blackjack and RAAF has ordered MQ-4C Tritons. Do we really need an intermediate and potentially vulnerable UAV in this post insurgency world?
 
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