Ah-64 Apache, can small arms knock down it?

[giangnguyen]

Hi all,
Does any one here know any infor about this? There is hardly a perfect flying machine that can always survive small arm (calibres below 20mm) fire, I beliave so.
Giang Nguyen

 

[Gremlin29]

Yep

Small arms can bring down any aircraft. The Apache and Blackhawk were both designed to sustain fairly substantial damage, but they are not immune to small arms fire. If we look at the Apache that was brought down (at least the one that I saw) it did not appear to be damaged and may have simply been forced to land due to mechanical malfunctions. It made a safe and uneventful landing whereby both aviators were able to walk away. Perhaps a lucky (or super skilled) shot to a hydraulic line?

 

[Red aRRow]

I believe the Apache and the A-10 warthog are designed to sustain lots of small arms fire due to their roles in war.

 

[Gremlin29]

Helos

You are quite correct shamayel. Both the A-10 and AH-64 were designed to withstand maximum damage. Both aircraft feature titanium armored cockpits as well as armor in critical systems areas. The AH-64's rotorblades are designed to survive the impact of up to 37mm projectiles. Neither aircraft obviously are invinsilbe and something as simple a small bird could cause a catostrophic failure under the right conditions.

 

[boylde]

Helicopter losses in Vietnam came mostly from hostile small arms fir like 7.62mm AK47/AKMS,RPG,machine guns,23mm ZU 23 and ZSU 23-4P,SAM site or portables. Avoidin hits is not easy but with alltitude and speed and nowdays choppers are narrower and have doubled armour thickness but no doubt soon there will be a wepon able to bet even the most advanced choppers it still relays on one major component the piolt and the crew.

 

[kashifshahzad]

:coffee I think they can be shot down with the morter or by continuous firing form a gun.

 

[Red aRRow]

:coffee I think they can be shot down with the morter or by continuous firing form a gun.

Uhhhh I think mortar would be difficult since it is more of an indirect infantry support weapon and would have to have the chopper flying right over it to hit it.

Biggest threat has to be from RPGs and shoulder fired SAMs. Fire from small arms might bring it down if it hits some important part such as the rotor blades or the engine.
Hey isn't that an idea!! instead of targeting the heavily armoured body of the helicopter why not fire with small arms at the rotor blades of the chopper. What do you guys think??

 

[Temoor_A]

Uhhhh I think mortar would be difficult since it is more of an indirect infantry support weapon and would have to have the chopper flying right over it to hit it.

Biggest threat has to be from RPGs and shoulder fired SAMs. Fire from small arms might bring it down if it hits some important part such as the rotor blades or the engine.
Hey isn't that an idea!! instead of targeting the heavily armoured body of the helicopter why not fire with small arms at the rotor blades of the chopper. What do you guys think??

The problem is that it would be a very lucky situation to fire directly in to sensitive parts of the chopper through small arms and not getting toasted by the aircraft itself.

RPG on the other hand is more effective weapon.

And I agree that mortar rounds are not an effective option.

 

[Attila]

I really don't think it is possible. As far as the deveopment of small arms fire goes vs. the development of strike aircraft and attack helicoptors, the odds of a man shooting down a plane/helicopter with even an AK is slim.

To put it into context, remember the scene in Flight of the Intruder where the copilot gets shot my a gentleman wielding a long barrel rifle?? The round penetrated the cockpit glass and fatally wounded him.

That being said, with todays titanium canopy's and other special metallurgies used to cover key components of any airframe, I consider it highly unlikely that small arms fire would take an AH-64 out.

Besides...A-10's come back to base 1/2 destroyed by anti-aircraft fire and tank shells...think a rifle is going to do something to it?? lol

Attila

 

[Pendekar]

The NVA have used the "small arms for air defence" concept extensively during the Vietnam war, and they manage to bring down significant number of Hueys with it. the larger the crowd, the better chance it have to bring down any aircraft. from what the NVA claim, they also manage to shot down 2 F-4 phantom with this tactics.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

It's possible.

During the Soviet campaign in Afganistan 1980's, the Afgan fighters would camouflage themselves and bait the Mi-24 Hinds into mountain valleys. After the Hind is inside the valley, dozens of fighters would use small arms and RPGs to attack the areas around the cockpit which is the least armoured part of the Mi-24 at the time.(Soivets later placed bulletproof glass around 4 inches thick in Hinds.) Many of them were lost this way.

Or if you believe the Iraqis, they claimed a old farmer have shot down an American Apache with WWII style rifle. I don't buy any of that Iraqi propaganda crap, I think the downed Apache suffered engine failures in the sandy enviroment. But besides that, small arms does post some degree of threat to helicopters.

 

[Aussie Digger]

No helicopter and certainly not an Apache is invincible to enemy fire. Small arms and definitely RPG type weapons are capable of damaging helo's to the point where they are not able to continue to operate. It would be unlikely (I won't say impossible) for small arms alone to shoot down an Apache (the fuselage is designed to withstand 12.7mm HMG fire and the rotors are designed to withstand 23mm cannon fire IIRC) but stranger things have happened...

 

[Pendekar]

Lucky shots goes a long way. a simple rule of probabilities catch up at last.

 

[berry580]

I really don't think it is possible. As far as the deveopment of small arms fire goes vs. the development of strike aircraft and attack helicoptors, the odds of a man shooting down a plane/helicopter with even an AK is slim.

To put it into context, remember the scene in Flight of the Intruder where the copilot gets shot my a gentleman wielding a long barrel rifle?? The round penetrated the cockpit glass and fatally wounded him.

That being said, with todays titanium canopy's and other special metallurgies used to cover key components of any airframe, I consider it highly unlikely that small arms fire would take an AH-64 out.

Besides...A-10's come back to base 1/2 destroyed by anti-aircraft fire and tank shells...think a rifle is going to do something to it?? lol

Attila

Well not exactly 1/2 destroyed, I think if around 1/3 of it's wing's area is gone, then it can't fly much more.
But I did hear that it still can fly even with one engine blown off!!

 

[ThunderBolt]

Apache's is a very old production, but new upgrades, wouldn't allow a simple AK to crash it. I think only 2 things that can bring it down would be , a lucky shot to one of its major components, or a sniper performs its specialities on it. I don't know if it has bullet proof cocpit. DOES IT?

 

[SABRE]

During the Iraq War an Iraqi farmer shot down an APACHE with an old WW2 Rifle....U can bring down any helicopter (may be an AC too) even by throughing stones on it, but u'll have to hit the right place to do that.

I dnt remember which was was it but a civilian man on the ground shot a fire on USNavy's F-6 & manage to kill one of the pilots. The builet hit his neck.

 

[tatra]

The NVA have used the "small arms for air defence" concept extensively during the Vietnam war, and they manage to bring down significant number of Hueys with it. the larger the crowd, the better chance it have to bring down any aircraft. from what the NVA claim, they also manage to shot down 2 F-4 phantom with this tactics.

The Big difference is that the F4 Phantom was not designed from the ground up to be able to withstand small arms and light cannon fire and the A10 and A64 were. The ats why A10 has rugged twin engine design and redundant controls and a titanum armor 'tub' for the cockpit. Apache was designed to withstand 23mm AP ammo.

 

[Gremlin29]

Could a single rifle bullet bring down an Apache? It's not impossible, just highly highly improbable. The Apache is not impervious to small arms fire, but it takes a significant amount of small arms fire to bring one down. I don't think you fella's fully understand the complexities of military aviation. In some cases a sensor could be hit which would illuminate a segment panel light. Here's a scenario that's not at all unrealistic:

Small arms fire damages the transmission chip detector sensor and or wiring. This in turn illuminates the Master Caution light, which alerts the pilot to review his segment panel lights. He will see a little block lit up that says "TransChip". What that means to the pilot is the sensor has detected metal particles in the transmission oil chip detector, that means there something coming apart in the transmission which is of course a component that is critical for flight. Now we go into training and the operators manual. A transmission chip light dictates the pilot land as soon as possible. That means proceed to the nearest suitable landing area without delay, the primary consideration is occupant survival. When the transmission seizes, your flight ends. Under combat conditions, the pilot has to take a gamble over flying an aircraft that could stop flying at any moment and or getting captured if he lands. Pilots know that if the tranny seizes the game is over. So they have a better chance landing safely, and E&Eing the enemy. Naturally in combat they are going to look at the trans oil temp to see if maybe just maybe it's a faulty sensor, and monitor the temp for changes which would indicate there is actually a problem. If for some reason the temp sensor was likewise damaged he pretty much has no choice but to land, what could very well be an otherwise undamaged and totally servicable aircraft. To me, that's not shooting anything down, it's just quirky fate.

The old saying is, Big sky, Little bullet.

 

[Pendekar]

yep, that's more like it. it means the pilot was forced to land instead of being shot down. by the wa, the apache that the farmer shot down, i see it's right pilotside canopy glass was shattered, i think the farmer might hit the cockpit control panel as well and the display went blank. obviously the farmer aim his gun to the cockpit.

 

[Gremlin29]

That could be Pendekar, but the Apache has dual controls and can be flown from both front and rear seat and in fact both crew members are rated aviators. Without knowing what damage was done to the ship it's impossible to tell for sure how it was shot down. I wouldn't take that report that some farmer with an old bolt action rifle brought it down with one lucky shot too seriously. The pilots survived and gave a debrief on what happened but I honestly don't remember what it was other than it not being all that remarkable. For a single lucky shot I would almost be suspect of the fire detection system. When the big red FIRE light illuminates, it grabs your attention fast. When the FIRE light illuminates and you see something that "looks" just a little bit like smoke from an onboard fire, it REALLY gets your attention. There are certain "things" that happen to aircraft that makes landing in an enemy occupied area a viable alternative to the bad things that could happen when your up in the air. There's an old pilot saying that goes like this: It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than it is to be in the air wishing you were on the ground.