China - Geostrategic & Geopolitical.

swerve

Super Moderator
The lease was a misconception. China ceded Hong Kong to Britain for perpetuity in 1842 at Treaty of Nanking. Hong Kong was never leased. Up until the handover in 1997, Britain had ruled Hong Kong for 156 years.
As Ananda says, only the original colony, basically Hong Kong Island (<8% of the post-1900 territory), was ceded in 1842. Kowloon (another 6.5%) was ceded in 1860, also in perpetuity..

The other 85% had to go back in 1997. The Chinese made it clear they'd not extend the lease, & trying to hang on to the New Territories illegally was inconceivable politically, as well as being impractical militarily. Trying to keep the permanently ceded part had various problems. Apart from the existence of Boundary Street, not much notice was taken of the difference between the small ceded territory & the much larger leased area when building. Returning only the leased land was impractical. The old colony got most of its water, electricity, etc. from the New Territories, sewers, electricity cables, & so on crossed the boundary . . . . To function it needed the full cooperation of whoever ran the New Territories, & the Chinese also made it clear that they'd not give that cooperation. All the Chinese needed to do to get it back would be to turn off the taps.
 
Britain could have defended Hong Kong from PRC had they had the determination to do so, either by nuclear threat or by conventional warfare. Chinese conventional military was particularly weak in the early 80s. Also, China was not going to fight a nuclear war with Britain over Hong Kong. Fact is Britain handed Hong Kong to PRC in the 1980s to boost PRC against USSR.
 

DDG38

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Britain could have defended Hong Kong from PRC had they had the determination to do so, either by nuclear threat or by conventional warfare. Chinese conventional military was particularly weak in the early 80s. Also, China was not going to fight a nuclear war with Britain over Hong Kong. Fact is Britain handed Hong Kong to PRC in the 1980s to boost PRC against USSR.
If you want to continue posting here, I strongly suggest you start backing up your assertions with some links to reputable (not wiki etc) sources. Otherwise claims made without evidence can be refuted without evidence and the discussion goes nowhere.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Britain could have defended Hong Kong from PRC had they had the determination to do so, either by nuclear threat or by conventional warfare. Chinese conventional military was particularly weak in the early 80s. Also, China was not going to fight a nuclear war with Britain over Hong Kong. Fact is Britain handed Hong Kong to PRC in the 1980s to boost PRC against USSR.
Particularly weak? What because its equipment wasn’t as good as western Nations? What the Chinese Military lacked in quality it made up for in sheer quantity. The UK Military would have run out of Ammo long before they ran out of targets.
Quantity has a quality all of its own. No one is going to start shooting Nukes without a very good reason and I can’t see HK being a good enough reason
 
Final warning about your posting behaviour. Either obey the rules or begone
Particularly weak? What because its equipment wasn’t as good as western Nations? What the Chinese Military lacked in quality it made up for in sheer quantity. The UK Military would have run out of Ammo long before they ran out of targets.
Quantity has a quality all of its own. No one is going to start shooting Nukes without a very good reason and I can’t see HK being a good enough reason
Invasion of China against Britain runs contrary to UN Charter. There would have been UNSC resolution and US involved in the war to defend Hong Kong from PRC invasion. Britain defends Gibraltar from Spain and Falklands from Argentina. There is no reason to suggest Britain could have have defended Hong Kong from PRC. In the 1980s PRC and USSR were enemies. USSR would not supply military hardware to PRC.

@supersupersoldier YOU ARE ON YOUR FINAL WARNING. THE MODERATORS HAVE ALREADY HAD A COMPLAINT ABOUT YOU ACCUSING YOU OF FLAMEBAITING. WE HAVEN'T DECIDED WHETHER YOU ARE FLAMEBAITING, A TROLL , OR JUST TRYING US ON. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHICH BECAUSE IF YOU STEP OUT OF LINE ONCE MORE YOU WILL BE PERMANENTLY BANNED WITHOUT WARNING, ESPECIALLY IF WE SUSPECT THAT YOU ARE TROLLING.
 
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MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
There would have been UNSC resolution and US involved in the war to defend Hong Kong from PRC invasion.
Hypothetical scenarios or postulations have no place here and are simply distractions. This is not Reddit. Go there if you want to waste your time. Please don't waste ours. Posting here is a privilege and you are fast on the path to losing that privilege!.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
Invasion of China against Britain runs contrary to UN Charter. There would have been UNSC resolution and US involved in the war to defend Hong Kong from PRC invasion. Britain defends Gibraltar from Spain and Falklands from Argentina.
Seems you still not taking time to learn the real condition of Hong Kong before posting again. I don't know if this's your real intentions to get into silly arguments with little logic to back it up, or you're innocently didn't have clue on the subject.

If you're the later one, I give you another benefit of the doubt to help you in summarizing what others in here already try to give you information on Hong Kong condition:

1. The 99 years of lease in Hong Kong situation is the real thing. You can check wiki cause seems that you're capable off. The lease is for new territory that make 85% of total Hong Kong Territory. Again without New Territory, then the rest 15% area living conditions can't be supported. China clearly did not want to extend the lease of new territory, Thus UK also not see the benefits to hang on to the rest of 15% area.

2. If UK hang on to New Territory after the lease run out, then UK was the one that doing illegal occupation. Thus China have any legal rights to invade New Territory should they choose to do it. Cause UK that doing actions against UN Resolution.

3. Military UK can't hold overall Hong Kong Territory against PLA invasion. You keep bringing Falkland Island or even Gibraltar as comparison. Again, it's very illogical. PLA Military might (even in 1997) far surpassed Argentina (which UK has to stretch RN abilities to beat it in Falkland), or Spain (which's very Illogical of you to using it as comparison considering both UK and Spain are NATO Allies).

4. Bring the idea to hand over HK to ROC instead PRC is also very Illogical on many aspects from Legal, Geopolitical, and Economics/Business point of view. ROC/Taiwan can't hold on to even a square meter of their mainland territory after being kicked out by PRC during civil war. Moreover, PRC is the recognize China in UN. UK in every aspect has to work with PRC and not ROC.

So, there. Try to learn more on real Hong Kong condition Before you try to post again in here on the issue. Don't bring any Illogical arguments, cause so far that's what you're doing.
 
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4. Bring the idea to hand over HK to ROC instead PRC is also very Illogical on many aspects from Legal, Geopolitical, and Economics/Business point of view. ROC/Taiwan can't hold on to even a square meter of their mainland territory after being kicked out by PRC during civil war. Moreover, PRC is the recognize China in UN. UK in every aspect has to work with PRC and not ROC.
Incorrect. ROC holds Kinmen which is far smaller than Hong Kong and located only 6 km off the mainland. There is no reason to believe ROC cannot hold Hong Kong against PRC considering ROC and the US have mutual security treaty since 1955 which is why PRC never took another inch of ROC since 1955.

 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
ROC holds Kinmen which is far smaller than Hong Kong and located only 6 km off the mainland.
You just contradict yourself, Kinmen is only an Island, not mainland Territory. Show us what territory in Mainland that still being hold by ROC.

Again what legal aspects that UK has to hand over Hong Kong to ROC ? PRC is the legally recognize Political entity of China, not ROC. Besides Kinmen has not been absorb by PRC, cause PRC has not want to have all out war with ROC yet. If somehow UK hand over HK to ROC instead PRC, is not only can't hold legally, also for ROC point if view, will give excuse for PRC legal invasion. Something ROC clearly want to avoid.

Again you clearly not try to learn real situation, and only provide Illogical close to fantasize arguments ? Are you still in High School by the way ?
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
@supersupersoldier, I just giving this backgrounder below to educate you.

1. Over the course of 4 months beginning in Aug 1948, the KMT leaders relocated the Republic of China Air Force to Taiwan, taking over 80 flights and 3 ships. The KMT, its officers and approximately 2 million troops took part in the retreat; in addition to many civilians and refugees, fleeing the advance of the Communist People's Liberation Army (PLA). Chen Chin-chang writes in his book on the subject that an average of 50 or 60 planes flew daily between Taiwan and China transporting fuel and ammunition between Aug 1948 and Dec 1949.
...the US have mutual security treaty since 1955...
2. Factual error — Not applicable to your attempt to link it to the 1997 HK handover, as President Jimmy Carter unilaterally nullified the Sino-American Mutual Defense Treaty, which the United States had signed with the ROC in Dec 1954 and was ratified by the U.S. Senate in Feb 1955. This was later replaced by the Taiwan Relations Act, 42 plus years ago.

ROC holds Kinmen which is far smaller than Hong Kong and located only 6 km off the mainland.
3. Today, the small Taiwanese islands (like Hong Kong) just off the coast of mainland China are not defendable. If war starts, they cannot be resupplied by air or sea due to China’s IADS.
(a) After the Cold War, Kinmen’s military purpose for the KMT propaganda went away. If a 2 million strong KMT army had to escape the PLA, what hope does the British Army have in defending Hong Kong? Even if you wanted the British to gift Hong Kong to them, the Taiwanese will not agree to defend Hong Kong for you.​
(b) Even though the US have not had a formal security treaty with Taiwan since the 1970’s, it is a thriving democracy that remains an important US friend. Doing nothing while China seized Taiwan proper, as part of the 1st island chain, would make Japan question US commitment to Japanese defence—and might even lead some in Japan to consider embarking on not only a military buildup but to develop its own nuclear weapons within months of a decision.​
(c) I note that the Japanese Kurile Islands are closer Taipei than Tokyo; which is why I expect that Japan will not allow any attack on the main island of Taiwan to succeed. On 16 Jan 2019, Japan’s then Minister of Defense, Takeshi Iwaya said that:​

Japan “will drastically improve our defense posture at a speed fundamentally different from the past and expand the roles we can perform. This is not a rhetorical statement. In order to be consistent with the strong determination expressed in the National Defense Program Guidelines (NDPG), we will promote concrete actions necessary for strengthening our defense capabilities. This enables us to respond to the current security environment surrounding our country. We will carry out these actions in accordance with the budget described in the new Mid-Term Defense Program (MTDP), which is a target lever of our defense capability over the next five years.​

In the new MTDP, you can find the numbers related to the amount of money. What I would like to – what I would like you to pay attention the most is the target lever of defense buildup over the next five years. That is $245.3 billion U.S. This is a large 11 percent increase, or a $25 billion U.S. increase, compared to the previous MTDP. This is a record high amount.”​
4. The one country-two systems offer was originally for Taiwan; no one in Taiwan wants the Hong Kong model for reunification. The Chinese government advanced the proposal of peaceful reunification; in May 1955, Premier Zhou Enlai stated that "the Chinese people are willing, when conditions permit, to strive to liberate Taiwan by peaceful means."
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
China's policy of transferring hundreds of thousands of Uighurs and other ethnic minorities in Xinjiang to new jobs often far from home is leading to a thinning out of their populations, according to a high-level Chinese study seen by the BBC.
The government denies that it is attempting to alter the demographics of its far-western region and says the job transfers are designed to raise incomes and alleviate chronic rural unemployment and poverty.
Of course the chinese government has only good intentions. Together with the People's Liberation Army, they will liberate the land of the Uyghurs from the Uyghur culture, Uyghur identity and Uyghur People.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
A general warning to all and directed to no one in particular — to stay on-topic.

1. If this discussion thread is to continue, there has to be a serious attempt to relate all future posts here to military developments in China or security concerns related to China in the Indo-Pacific region.
2. We want to encourage participation that fosters learning. Kindly consider providing some defence related content — otherwise the thread becomes all about politics and that is against forum rules.
3. Posting without any background reading that reflects the complex Sino-American relationship also lowers the quality of the geo-political discussion and makes the thread boring.
4. Being a defence forum, DT is only interested in impact of events when it affects defence, including increased geopolitical and military competition (or military cooperation, as the case maybe). We expect that some of these changes may result in an action-reaction dynamics or even an arms race in the Indo-Pacific. These changes can impact defence procurement or even result in greater investment in defence facilities — which would then make them relevant to the discussion.
5. Please also keep in mind that from the other perspective — China has interests that it cannot ignore in managing its external military-to-military relations. So objectivity and the ability to see another party’s concerns would be hallmarks of a good discussion.
6. We take this opportunity to thank all who shared links, to further discussion.
8. Given the recent banning of supersupersoldier, let me repeat 6 points from last year, with some additions for your consideration.

9. By all means feel free:

(i) to provide links that are critical of China but try to relate each new post to defence related aspects too; and
(ii) to provide data on the Uyghurs but also relate it to an internal security angle, or on the Chinese People's Armed Police Force (PAP).

10. The emerging capabilities on the PAP is worthy of a thread on its own, if anyone is interested in starting one. The PAP’s role:
(i) in Tiananmen in 1989 is thought to have been limited, in part because of its perceived weaknesses and lack of capability, forcing the Chinese government to turn to the PLA instead. In the intervening period, substantial amounts of time and investment have been put into improving the PAP’s capabilities and transforming it into an effective force;
(ii) has changed between 2017 and 2018, where it was divested of almost all its lower-intensity law enforcement responsibilities. These previous missions included border defence, forestry and natural resource protection, firefighting and hydropower. Most of the units that fulfilled them have been transferred to other parts of the Chinese government. In their place, the PAP has gained responsibility for the Chinese Coast Guard (中国 海警局) and is now focused on three core missions – internal security, maritime security and supporting the PLA in times of war;
(iii) has been expanded with the Internal Security Force gaining 32 regional commands, covering China’s provinces, cities and autonomous regions. Each of these has at least one mobile unit, and some key commands, such as Beijing and Xinjiang, have several more; and
(iv) includes using UAV technology. The use of surveillance technology has also been on the rise, apparently spurred by Xi’s support for civil-military integration in his speech at the 19th Party Congress in 2017. PAP units are reported to employ high-definition network cameras and facial recognition systems. For counter-terrorism duties, the forces are reportedly using bomb disposal robots.

11. Kindly help keep the thread on track on geo-politics or defence procurement related to China — a lot of work has gone in keeping it real and yet understandable. Please do not use this thread for only China bashing in a blind manner. This is also not a thread:
(i) on China’s human rights record (and there is no dispute that Beijing has a very poor track record);
(ii) on Hong Kong protests alone; or
(iii) to serve to re-imagine if UK refused to give back Hong Kong.

12. If the quality of posts in this thread does not improve after this guidance, the Moderators will be forced to consider closing this thread. I have also written 2 posts on ‘Let the facts speak’, part 1 and part 2, which may be of assistance to all.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #354
A Foreign Policy article arguing that the PRC is losing friends and influence because of its aggressive policies and that the US should stop directly pressuring it because of the inherent danger of it going to war. The author argues that the current situation is similar to that of the US and Imperial Japan in 1940 and 1941 when FDR began placing sanctions upon Japan. He argues that if the US holds forth on any further racheting up of the pressure and instead builds relationships and consensus with allies and friends within the region, politically, economically etc., that will weaken the hold that the PRC has over them to the point they no longer hold any sway or influence over the region.

It is an interesting argument and it could be an alternative to backing the PRC into a corner where it does lash out. Under this scenario, it would eventually fold under its own inertia and weight because other nations would buy less of its products, and as its exports drop its economy suffers. That will create problems for the CCP that it may not be able to talk its way out of.

 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
A thinking response — Part 1

1. To some extent, it is true, any over reaction by the Americans make them look bad to the Koreans and ASEAN. This makes it easier for China to replace/compete with the US.
The author argues that the current situation is similar to that of the US and Imperial Japan in 1940 and 1941 when FDR began placing sanctions upon Japan. He argues that if the US holds forth on any further racheting up of the pressure and instead builds relationships and consensus with allies and friends within the region, politically, economically etc., that will weaken the hold that the PRC has over them to the point they no longer hold any sway or influence over the region.
2. Not sure if that is correct but if you look back at the history of China and its rise and fall of dynasties, China is its own worse enemy.
(a) The treasure fleet of the Ming dynasty was short interlude before it became inward looking — the country is naturally sea blind — for China reforms at the PAP level is even more important than PLA(N), for regime security and control.​
(b) The reforms that Xi is forced to make comes from serious weakness of CCP rule. Don’t get in the way of China doing more harm to itself with its wolf warrior rhetoric. They don’t realise it’s a mistake and we should encourage them to continue to do so. Many countries have banned China’s Huawei and ZTE from their telecommunications networks. And India, Vietnam, Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan are all modernizing their armed forces in response to potential Chinese threats. That way, the other Asian countries will circle their wagons — given the current size of the PLA(N), it is much larger that it needs to be. The USN does not have to agitate them; they will agitate their neighbours — who will then see them as an enemy again.​
(c) There was already a strategy to manage China’s rise that Trump abandoned; and the rapid changes at DoD level we see now — is good for the US military — as an organisation, it is much more adaptive and capable of deep thinking about the geography of the Indo-Pacific. The US Marines in particular are out thinking the PLA.​

3. American Cold War 2.0 advocates are idiots. If ASEAN has a choice, it then will remain viable as an organisation. ADMM Plus is weak because it lacks support from Indonesia, Japan and US — all aid to the Philippines should be diverted to increase the capabilities of select ASEAN countries (other than Cambodia, Myanmar and the Philippines).
(a) As long as ASEAN is viable, an attack on any ASEAN state, Taiwan or Japan will result in the rapid isolation of China from the international system; given the current stance of Europe and NATO.​
(b) An attack on Japan, is an attack on a US ally. Which will tigger an American response. If that occurs, NATO knows that their American ally is under attack. That is why there are limits to Chinese options for esclation.​
(c) As the FP article clearly states, today, China’s wolf warriors seem to completely buy into their own narrative that the US is a petulant former superpower too proud to gracefully stand aside while China takes its rightful place at the top of the world. But as China finds itself at odds with more and more countries, often with no connection to U.S. pressure — it is clear that China is the problem. Japan’s standoff with China over the Senkaku Islands, India’s actual battle with China in Ladakh—none of these were prompted by U.S. arrogance. Nor was the South China Sea dispute, which pits China against no fewer than five of its Southeast Asian neighbors.​
(d) While trade alone does not prevent war; but an American led trade war can trigger a hot war that those who are sensible in Asia want to prevent. Trump is such an idiot for trying to start a trade war — with his stupid and failed America First ideas. "The trade war with China hurt the US economy and failed to achieve major policy goals," a recent study commissioned by the U.S.-China Business Council argues, finding that the trade war reduced economic growth and cost the U.S. 245,000 jobs.​
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
A thinking response — Part 2

A Foreign Policy article arguing that the PRC is losing friends and influence because of its aggressive policies and that the US should stop directly pressuring it because of the inherent danger of it going to war.
4. I agree that whatever else Biden does, his top priority should be a negative one: Don’t give China’s leaders any reason:
(a) to panic (and they do not panic easily);​
(b) to have legitimate grounds for self-defense; or​
(c) to have a cause that might justify war (i.e. avoid brinksmanship over Taiwan, which is what DPP wants).​

That is simultaneously the best way to keep U.S. allies onside and the best way to manage China’s rise. By not giving the CCP an obvious enemy to rally around, Xi has greater problems of legitimacy than Biden. The country had a unsustainable 1 child policy that will result in rapid aging by 2049; and what they want is to reduce the size of the PLA — which they are doing. In time, the Indians will have the world’s largest army. It’s clear that the PLA is going to be much smaller; with the PLA(N), the world’s largest by tonnage.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
The one child policy was abandoned in 2015. For a while afterwards I read of cases of local officials who didn't get the message & kept trying to enforce the old rules being publicly chastised from on high. The birth rate has gone up - slightly.

But women don't want to have lots of children now. They have jobs. Urban housing is expensive, & over half the population is urban now, even disregarding the huge numbers of people officially domiciled in rural areas but working in cities. Decent child care is scarce & expensive. So China's heading for a declining population even without any official limits on children.

Rather like richer countries such as Singapore.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
The one child policy was abandoned in 2015. For a while afterwards I read of cases of local officials who didn't get the message & kept trying to enforce the old rules being publicly chastised from on high. The birth rate has gone up - slightly.

But women don't want to have lots of children now. They have jobs. Urban housing is expensive, & over half the population is urban now, even disregarding the huge numbers of people officially domiciled in rural areas but working in cities. Decent child care is scarce & expensive. So China's heading for a declining population even without any official limits on children.

Rather like richer countries such as Singapore.
Agreed. Thanks for the input and it is inevitable that the population will peak in a manner that is out of CCP control. China is starting a diaspora return policy on a small scale that is not successful and the bad press with HK is not helping.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #359
This Foreign Policy article from last year discusses the economic situation of the PRC and the reliability of the figures and statistics released by the PRC. China’s Superpower Dreams Are Running Out of Money

At the National Peoples Congress the PRC premier, Li Keqiang, has promised a 6% growth of the economy for the next year, however that remains to be seen. A Confident China Promises Robust Growth and a Hard Line on Hong Kong He does suggest caution though because of the COVID-19 pandemic. Although military spending continues to increase by 7% per annum.

Xi Jinping has also put forward a "proposal" to overhaul the Hong Kong electoral system. China NPC: Beijing set to overhaul Hong Kong electoral system This is the final extinction of any democratic rights in Hong Kong, and between this and the Security Law, it will be subject to the same conditions as any other province in the PRC.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
China is starting a diaspora return policy on a small scale that is not successful and the bad press with HK is not helping.
Indeed. Despite the non-PRC nationals of Chinese ancestory on social media saying stuff like "yeah, bruh, I'm soooo going to China as soon as I get fluent in Mandarin", relatively few people are going to permanently rebase themselves in China. It's improbable that my friends who moved abroad will go back. They have children and will not want to trade clean(er) air and good schools for what China has to offer. (Note many CCP officials send their children abroad too. If it's good enough for China's politicians, why not ordinary Chinese people?)

You also made a point point about how the wolf warrior diplomacy is backfiring. Maybe it could have worked if a cowardly politician became US President, but if the occupant of the Oval Office has even a moderate amount of backbone most countries were more likely to react negatively.
 
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