PRC Peoples Liberation Army Navy

bdique

Member
the fundamentals are always wrapped around the multiple "d's"

detection, distraction, disruption, delamination, deterrence, destruction

If the presence of Liaoning is enough to cause an enemy to redistribute their forces from a critical fighting mass to deal with it (even if that just means shadowing) then that may be a sufficient end result to achieve an element of "win". The force element attached to the carrier also starts to give an indication of their intent - especially if its not the conventional formed up fleet for that platform

its why subs are the greatest demonstrators of disproportionate impact

one sub can tie up a fleet, one sub can cause the reallocation of significant critical resources of the opposing team, one sub can change the game plan,

eg look at the cuban crisis (russian subs) and the falklands (belgrano impact)
Hey GF, thanks so much once again. I'm getting a clearer idea, only to realise there's more I don't know. (I do get the Belgrano bit though. Thought it was a real pity, she had so much history, but war is war.) I might learn better if there were specific examples, but that doesn't mean straying into OPSEC territory...

Still, there's been something that's bugging me and I hope you could help. What exactly does delamination mean in military terms? I've heard that wrt SAM site busting. Take out the radars/command and control systems, leave the missiles intact and even though it isn't a complete destruction of a GBAD system...it's delaminated? :confused:
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Still, there's been something that's bugging me and I hope you could help. What exactly does delamination mean in military terms? I've heard that wrt SAM site busting. Take out the radars/command and control systems, leave the missiles intact and even though it isn't a complete destruction of a GBAD system...it's delaminated? :confused:
delamination is the progressive neutering or destruction of the opposing forces capacity to respond in a coherent and meaningful manner

every force/platform has layers of offence and defence, so in simple terms its about peeling back those layers to render the enemy ineffective in the battlespace of interest

delamination is not necessarily about decapitation or absolute destruction of the opposing force - its about managing the ability of that force to respond in a manner that they would prefer. Managing the enemy is thus also about deception and degradation on your terms

eg look at GW1 and GW2 - the US selectively degraded the enemies capacity to communicate to its forces in the field - whether that was by killing primary comms or causing the enemy to reroute remaining comms into a funnel that they had even greater control of even though the enemy was unaware of that capability. ie the US massaged the environment to suit their battle plan. that was done via delamination, a considered degradation and destruction of identified nodes of interest.

the model above is something that can be expanded upon with a number of examples, but thats a good recent big picture one where its basically discussed in open source material and hasn't been polluted by the tom clancy view of how battle evolves

(as an anology refer to the onion. each layer of the onion can represent an offensive or defensive capability - as you peel off or delaminate the onion you get closer to the core of it)

you could apply delamination as a concept to the issue of USS Stark and how that evolved. it doesn't necessary need to be a "big concept" model
 

bdique

Member
delamination is the progressive neutering or destruction of the opposing forces capacity to respond in a coherent and meaningful manner

every force/platform has layers of offence and defence, so in simple terms its about peeling back those layers to render the enemy ineffective in the battlespace of interest

delamination is not necessarily about decapitation or absolute destruction of the opposing force - its about managing the ability of that force to respond in a manner that they would prefer. Managing the enemy is thus also about deception and degradation on your terms

eg look at GW1 and GW2 - the US selectively degraded the enemies capacity to communicate to its forces in the field - whether that was by killing primary comms or causing the enemy to reroute remaining comms into a funnel that they had even greater control of even though the enemy was unaware of that capability. ie the US massaged the environment to suit their battle plan. that was done via delamination, a considered degradation and destruction of identified nodes of interest.

the model above is something that can be expanded upon with a number of examples, but thats a good recent big picture one where its basically discussed in open source material and hasn't been polluted by the tom clancy view of how battle evolves

(as an anology refer to the onion. each layer of the onion can represent an offensive or defensive capability - as you peel off or delaminate the onion you get closer to the core of it)

you could apply delamination as a concept to the issue of USS Stark and how that evolved. it doesn't necessary need to be a "big concept" model
okay! got it, thanks a lot GF! :D
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
It's official, China is building a second aircraft carrier.

China defence: Work starts on second aircraft carrier - BBC News

50,000t STOBAR carrier with conventional power, based on the design of and experience using their current refurbished carrier. Similarly to use the J-15 as the core of the air group.

Sensible way forward. Last I heard weren't the numbers thrown around for their carrier ambitions around 4 - 5?

As an aside, here's an interesting segment about a recent aircraft trial on their current carrier with 9 J-15 aboard.

New HD Video Shows PLAN Aircraft Carrier Operations Aboard Liaoning with Nine J-15 Aircraft
 
Add also in the recent announcement, via state media of the new Type 901 T-AO-E (48k tons) beginning sea trials a few days back.

Some commentators stating this now completes their 1st 'set', wrt the CSG construct.

She is a big girl. They seem to be paying attention to the 'boring' logistics too
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Liaoning Carrier Group has headed into the SCS passing the Pratas Islands, also known as the Dongsha Islands which are Taiwanese. According to the Taiwanese the Group sailed through the Bashi Channel, a waterway between Taiwan and the Philippines on Saturday.
 

Tsavo Lion

Banned Member
Aircraft carrier Liaoning will reliably protect China's maritime rights Translation:
"The aircraft carrier "Liaoning", which entered the South China Sea during military exercises, has attracted special attention to the United States, Japan and Taiwan. Some experts have condemned the campaign of an aircraft carrier, while others have shown disregard for the ship, comparing it to US aircraft carriers. He nevertheless and following him actually Chinese carriers reliably protect the country's maritime rights, according to Global Times.
"Liaoning", the newspaper notes, is used for scientific research and for the preparation of construction only Chinese aircraft carriers, in the area of ​​China which still have to overcome many obstacles. Even after 50 years, Beijing does not cease to grow its defense, however, it is already clear that the rise of China has become the new norm of XXI century. Some external forces are likely to believe that it is better to face with China sooner rather than later, but China - a nuclear power, so a confrontation with her is a risky business. In the coming years, China may be drawn into a war in the coastal regions, but at such distances role of aircraft carriers may not be as critical, despite the fact that Beijing does not seek to be in a situation of its collision with the US aircraft carriers in the open ocean. However, China's aircraft carriers will go on, no doubt about it. They will go beyond the first or even the second circuit of the island, because they are a tool for demonstrating the determination of Beijing to protect its maritime rights. Pacific area is not fixed for any particular country, and no country should not flex its muscles on the doorstep of China to promote the so-called freedom of maritime navigation. With the development of aircraft carriers are no longer missile technology trump cards in the game of major powers. If China and the United States will cause bombed and sank the carriers to each other, start the next world war. And China's missile technology is considered one of the most advanced in the world. China will not be using their carriers to take the initiative and to strike Japan and Diaoyutai Islands to capture as Beijing hopes for peace in the South China Sea rather than turn it into a battlefield. If Tokyo wants to take advantage of the last chance to compete with China, he quickly realizes what caused military spending of China. China has become one of the most powerful states in the western Pacific Ocean, but it does not require additional rights for yourself. And China's core interests and do not grow, and the country is open to talks on any controversial issues. China will not deal with the US and Japan alliance in the open ocean, but both of them will not be able to encroach on the core interests of China, which will cause a severe blow to those who commit ill-considered actions in close proximity to the Chinese. If US combat ships will continue to patrol in the important areas for China in the South China Sea, "Liaoning" will be able to begin to approach the territorial waters of the US allies in the Asia-Pacific region. This will test the wisdom and courage to strategists and armed forces of China in the use of "Liaoning" and future Chinese aircraft carriers." I remember how a few years ago some pundits were saying that "it will take many years, even decades" for China to accomplish this. There is an old saying: "the dog barks, but the caravan keeps moving!"
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Aircraft carrier Liaoning will reliably protect China's maritime rights Translation:
"The aircraft carrier "Liaoning", which entered the South China Sea during military exercises, has attracted special attention to the United States, Japan and Taiwan. Some experts have condemned the campaign of an aircraft carrier, while others have shown disregard for the ship, comparing it to US aircraft carriers. He nevertheless and following him actually Chinese carriers reliably protect the country's maritime rights, according to Global Times.
"Liaoning", the newspaper notes, is used for scientific research and for the preparation of construction only Chinese aircraft carriers, in the area of ​​China which still have to overcome many obstacles. Even after 50 years, Beijing does not cease to grow its defense, however, it is already clear that the rise of China has become the new norm of XXI century. Some external forces are likely to believe that it is better to face with China sooner rather than later, but China - a nuclear power, so a confrontation with her is a risky business. In the coming years, China may be drawn into a war in the coastal regions, but at such distances role of aircraft carriers may not be as critical, despite the fact that Beijing does not seek to be in a situation of its collision with the US aircraft carriers in the open ocean. However, China's aircraft carriers will go on, no doubt about it. They will go beyond the first or even the second circuit of the island, because they are a tool for demonstrating the determination of Beijing to protect its maritime rights. Pacific area is not fixed for any particular country, and no country should not flex its muscles on the doorstep of China to promote the so-called freedom of maritime navigation. With the development of aircraft carriers are no longer missile technology trump cards in the game of major powers. If China and the United States will cause bombed and sank the carriers to each other, start the next world war. And China's missile technology is considered one of the most advanced in the world. China will not be using their carriers to take the initiative and to strike Japan and Diaoyutai Islands to capture as Beijing hopes for peace in the South China Sea rather than turn it into a battlefield. If Tokyo wants to take advantage of the last chance to compete with China, he quickly realizes what caused military spending of China. China has become one of the most powerful states in the western Pacific Ocean, but it does not require additional rights for yourself. And China's core interests and do not grow, and the country is open to talks on any controversial issues. China will not deal with the US and Japan alliance in the open ocean, but both of them will not be able to encroach on the core interests of China, which will cause a severe blow to those who commit ill-considered actions in close proximity to the Chinese. If US combat ships will continue to patrol in the important areas for China in the South China Sea, "Liaoning" will be able to begin to approach the territorial waters of the US allies in the Asia-Pacific region. This will test the wisdom and courage to strategists and armed forces of China in the use of "Liaoning" and future Chinese aircraft carriers." I remember how a few years ago some pundits were saying that "it will take many years, even decades" for China to accomplish this. There is an old saying: "the dog barks, but the caravan keeps moving!"

I am a member of various discussion groups including old china hands - we were saying this more than 10 years ago

everything we said and applied to a timeline is correct - it took exactly the amount of time its taken

it took a decade - and the professionals in the group never said "decades". we applied rebuild estimates, we applied training and work up times

we were accurate.

the article is an exercise in sophistry over fact - and no expert worth their salt has ever compared the russian derived aircraft carriers to US carrier concepts. there is nothing comparable in the force planning , force development and/or CONOPs models

a junior analyst could have worked that out
 

Tsavo Lion

Banned Member
I meant those outside this forum. Even someone in Russia wrote of his doubt of the PRC ability to finish building & then using the ex-Varyag. Can u give some examples of "sophistry over fact"?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I meant those outside this forum. Even someone in Russia wrote of his doubt of the PRC ability to finish building & then using the ex-Varyag.
Well I'd suggest they didn't do basic analysis of the issue - they certainly ignored political will and intent, which china has more of than any other country and drives their force development

in 2006 there was a group of us in a closed forum that stated that the PLAN would get the rebuild completed within 5 years, that the airwings would need developing, training, refining and forming up at the 4-7 year mark in parallel and the blue water trials would start at 9-10 years. It also mean that the assets to be used as part of a screen would also need to be developed in parallel. That would only address modelling and develop the CONOPs - but ultimately if the PLAN was to maintain numbers as well as field fleets, then additional build were necessary. China did a couple of dummy "great white fleet" tours a few years back - so that was a clear sign of fleet trans oceanic and blue water training

we then stated that a force and platform specific "great white fleet" expedition would occur at the 10-11 year mark (and thats 2016-17) - and that in real terms this would mean that china could commence to be battle ready against a near peer within 20 years assuming that development of certain other supporting vessels maintained momentum. From the time that China ran a real "great white fleet" exercise it would shorten the misfortune for a miscalculation and war to occur before the 2030 timeline and that it could bring an unintended maritime war to 2020. It would enable her to pressure Taiwan, apply pressure to Japan and forward deploy a floating base in support of the island chains reclaimed. At the same time china was cleaning up over 1500 airfields within 150km of the coast to act as jump points for LR land based air which china still needs to protect her fleet adequately

near peer capability is not the same as the "great white fleet" model - which is designed to intimidate less capable militaries and imply visible intent.

that's how analysis is supposed to be done - not by writing some meaningless puff piece and making broad statements without qualification
 

Tsavo Lion

Banned Member
In turn, I doubt their carrier will be going around the World any time soon, even after they have 3 of them operating, as 1 will be needed at all times in the China seas/W.Pac., plus they want to look non-aggressive on the World stage. However, if there's a future need to go to Atlantic/Med.Sea & the canal in Nicaragua is built, they could sail East to reach the West, & then come home via the Suez!
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
In turn, I doubt their carrier will be going around the World any time soon, even after they have 3 of them operating, as 1 will be needed at all times in the China seas/W.Pac., plus they want to look non-aggressive on the World stage. However, if there's a future need to go to Atlantic/Med.Sea & the canal in Nicaragua is built, they could sail East to reach the West, & then come home via the Suez!
China is a regional military power - she does not have blue water naval ability under the old definition of the term - ie an ability to maintain full task forces in each of the worlds major oceans

there's a difference between blue water navy and blue water power.
 

Tsavo Lion

Banned Member
“Compared with other countries, China has progressed ahead of expectations,” Zhang Junshe, a senior researcher at the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) Naval Military Studies Research Institute, told state-run media, adding “other countries’ aircraft carriers normally spent five to six years or even 10 years to gain combat capability.”.. the official Xinhua news agency reported in March how a Chinese submarine commander had boasted of conducting a mock attack on a US Navy formation during a submarine patrol in the East China Sea. The Chinese submarine skipper “commanded the submarine to use tactics to silently approach the formation…. Like an underwater sniper, Huang Donghai quietly took aim at the opponent, successfully organizing and carrying out a simulated attack,” the news agency reported.
They certainly made a great leap! True, the PLAN can't "maintain full task forces in each of the worlds major oceans", but occasional forays can already be done!
 
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