F-35 Program - General Discussion

S

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
Ranger25 said:
The latest S block 3i software has been approved and is being loaded. Will also be retro to existing frames
Click to expand...
Don't forget that existing Block 2Bs will be upgraded with the new stability enhancements by the end of the year, well before they will be upgraded with Block 3i/TR2.
 
Boagrius

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
Just a quick question for those "in the know" here: does the F35's Barracuda EW suite feature a self defence jammer other than what can be provided by EA from the APG81?

I have been trawling both the forum and the wider net for a definitive answer but haven't been able to find one. BAE's site suggests that it may have a wide band jamming capability but most info is pretty vague on this front. Appreciate any possible insight on this as I imagine much of Barracuda's capabilities are not public knowledge/classified.
 
A

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Boagrius said:
Just a quick question for those "in the know" here: does the F35's Barracuda EW suite feature a self defence jammer other than what can be provided by EA from the APG81?

I have been trawling both the forum and the wider net for a definitive answer but haven't been able to find one. BAE's site suggests that it may have a wide band jamming capability but most info is pretty vague on this front. Appreciate any possible insight on this as I imagine much of Barracuda's capabilities are not public knowledge/classified.
Click to expand...
Here is the best article I've read on the F-35's EW capabilities and about the most you're going to get from open source...

Avionics Magazine :: F-35 Electronic Warfare Suite: More Than Self-Protection

I don't believe the F-35 carries a dedicated self-protection jammer, if that is what you are asking, but then again it may...

:D
 
A

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Boagrius said:
Awesome footage. Look forward to seeing the F35 pushed even harder as the program matures. And to think the best bits are found "under the hood"...
Click to expand...
Indeed, just a nice litte FU to the Goon's, Spey, Wheeler, Snafu's of the world, who clearly show more and more that they 'don't know, what they don't know...'
 
Boagrius

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
ADMk2 said:
Indeed, just a nice litte FU to the Goon's, Spey, Wheeler, Snafu's of the world, who clearly show more and more that they 'don't know, what they don't know...'
Click to expand...
Amazing how agile the jet looks in the air as compared to what a still photo might have you expect. From certain angles I suppose the F35 can look fat/stubby, but I imagine there must be some engineering trickery at play that I am entirely ignorant of to generate the outcomes we've seen.

While the F35 is perhaps a heavy jet for its size, it would be fascinating to know, for example, how much lift the airframe generates, how it does it, and exactly what implications a constantly clean config has for operationally representative/meaningful kinematic outcomes.

I imagine the combination of generating plenty of lift along with reduced drag (clean config) and "dat engine" make for a very interesting and perhaps unique aircraft to fly...

EDIT:

Found some more footage of the F35 "not" turning, climbing or running ;-p

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMaOBn5j2xs
 
Last edited:
gf0012-aust

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Boagrius said:
Sorry gf, not sure I follow here. Translation for the layman/plebs? :confused2
Click to expand...

red hats means that they play as the aggressors to train pilots how to outfight the enemy - they play for keeps, ie give no quarter. they don't fly to let the blue team win.

bear in mind that when they flew F5's and the like against front line fleet like F-15's they would usually win.

I forget what the baseline hours is that they have to get the gig - but they're generally all high 4 and 5 digit hours across various platforms - and sometimes including real red air platforms. eg 5000+ hours as fixed wing combat flyers

(edit: 366 isn't "the" red hat outfit - but for the purpose of the exercise, they fly as red hats)
 
Last edited:
Boagrius

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
gf0012-aust said:
red hats means that they play as the aggressors to train pilots how to outfight the enemy - they play for keeps, ie give no quarter. they don't fly to let the blue team win.

bear in mind that when they flew F5's and the like against front line fleet like F-15's they would usually win.

I forget what the baseline hours is that they have to get the gig - but they're generally all high 4 and 5 digit hours across various platforms - and sometimes including real red air platforms. eg 5000+ hours as fixed wing combat flyers

(edit: 366 isn't "the" red hat outfit - but for the purpose of the exercise, they fly as red hats)
Click to expand...
Gotcha, thought as much. Hardly surprising mind you - the F22 has been pulling off these sorts of shenanigans in exercises for a while now, it was only ever a matter of time before the F35 started doing the same...

Doesn't bode well for the Flanker variants Mr Kopp et al. have been claiming make the F35 "double inferior". The Mud Hen makes for a good analogue to most Su27/30 derivatives I would have thought.
 
Last edited:
R

r3mu511

New Member
it's not surprising that the article mentions that:

... the Strike Eagles performing DCA (Defensive Counter Air) were not able to “find” and/or “engage” the almost-IOC F-35s...
Click to expand...
given what was publicly stated previously on the f35's rcs being on the order of -30 dBsm (assumed at x-band freqs, ref: Warplanes: F-22 Stealth Ability Revealed by USAF), this would mean the f-15e's effective detection range would drop to around 18% of normal (due to the 4th root relationship of rcs to range)... no wonder the f-15e's couldn't find the f-35s...
 
A

Air Force Brat

Member
Boagrius said:
Amazing how agile the jet looks in the air as compared to what a still photo might have you expect. From certain angles I suppose the F35 can look fat/stubby, but I imagine there must be some engineering trickery at play that I am entirely ignorant of to generate the outcomes we've seen.

While the F35 is perhaps a heavy jet for its size, it would be fascinating to know, for example, how much lift the airframe generates, how it does it, and exactly what implications a constantly clean config has for operationally representative/meaningful kinematic outcomes.

I imagine the combination of generating plenty of lift along with reduced drag (clean config) and "dat engine" make for a very interesting and perhaps unique aircraft to fly...

EDIT:

Found some more footage of the F35 "not" turning, climbing or running ;-p

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMaOBn5j2xs
Click to expand...
Exactly, the F-35 is basically the F-22's younger sister, the F-35 will have the Angle of Attack limited to 50 degrees by the FCS, but during testing with the spin chute installed in case of an un-expected departure, the F-35 was flown to 73 degrees Angle of Attack, after exhaustive testing the F-35 has been flown to 105 degrees angle of attack, which is vertical plus 15 degrees past the vertical, with-out control issues. The Spin chute has been removed and they continue to fly the F-35 to its limits.

The F-35 is essentially a lifting body, and the forward fuselage with its "chines" makes very significant lift, so yes the F-35 is heavy, and yes it is agile, and more importantly, it is very departure resistant, and if it does depart, it is very well behaved and easily recoverable. I am waiting for word that an F-35 jockey has gotten the drop on an F-22! It will likely be a senior airman with time in the F-22, and an understanding of the Con-ops of that bird, but it will happen, and the F-35 is indeed a very agile airframe, and it will take on "all" comers.

The nonsense of it being less capable than the SU-35 is simply that, nonsense, with its situational awareness, and very low L/O, it will be nearly impossible for another aircraft to find, other F-35s or the F-22 might be an exception, but I rather imagine that it will still be a challenge.
 
Boagrius

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
Air Force Brat said:
Exactly, the F-35 is basically the F-22's younger sister, the F-35 will have the Angle of Attack limited to 50 degrees by the FCS, but during testing with the spin chute installed in case of an un-expected departure, the F-35 was flown to 73 degrees Angle of Attack, after exhaustive testing the F-35 has been flown to 105 degrees angle of attack, which is vertical plus 15 degrees past the vertical, with-out control issues. The Spin chute has been removed and they continue to fly the F-35 to its limits.

The F-35 is essentially a lifting body, and the forward fuselage with its "chines" makes very significant lift, so yes the F-35 is heavy, and yes it is agile, and more importantly, it is very departure resistant, and if it does depart, it is very well behaved and easily recoverable. I am waiting for word that an F-35 jockey has gotten the drop on an F-22! It will likely be a senior airman with time in the F-22, and an understanding of the Con-ops of that bird, but it will happen, and the F-35 is indeed a very agile airframe, and it will take on "all" comers.

The nonsense of it being less capable than the SU-35 is simply that, nonsense, with its situational awareness, and very low L/O, it will be nearly impossible for another aircraft to find, other F-35s or the F-22 might be an exception, but I rather imagine that it will still be a challenge.
Click to expand...
Indeed. Kind of funny, given the noise of recent years, that the best antidote to the Raptor (aside from another F22) may well be the EODAS/APG81/EOTS/Barracuda/MADL/VLO equipped F35...

In a broader sense I find it baffling how much of the criticism directed at the jet thus far misses the paradigm shifts that have occurred in air warfare over the last 20 years or so. The fact that it is ultimately a systems event is probably chief among them, and the F35's ability to perform as part of such a system strikes me as nigh on peerless.

Just my 2c.
 
Last edited:
A

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Boagrius said:
Gotcha, thought as much. Hardly surprising mind you - the F22 has been pulling off these sorts of shenanigans in exercises for a while now, it was only ever a matter of time before the F35 started doing the same...

Doesn't bode well for the Flanker variants Mr Kopp et al. have been claiming make the F35 "double inferior". The Mud Hen makes for a good analogue to most Su27/30 derivatives I would have thought.
Click to expand...
And herein lies the biggest problem with Mr Kopp et al's asinine 1 v 1 fighter comparisons.

How is the 1 un-supported Flanker even going to find said F-35 before it is well within the F-35's weapons NEZ? The reailty is they simply won't. IRST cannot search the entire sky p, is weather dependant and is range limited in any case, fighter radar is ineffective at extreme range for detecting let alone tracking LO aircraft and LO aircraft exercise (or should) extreme EMCON conditions, for obvious reasons.

Kopp etc have an obvious agenda however the reality is that the F-35 driver while happily remaining unknown to said Flanker, will be busily setting him or herself up for the most advantageous firing position even if the farcical 1 v 1 nonsense were to happen. When entire flights of F-35 are doing so, things are going to look very bleak for red air. When entire force packages can't be detected or located a lot of hurt is going to ensue...

In exercises they need to set up scenarios such that F-35 emits it's own location so there even is the possibility if ACM or whatever training is being sought.

In combat scenarios the F-35 most certainly will NOT be emitting let alone broadcasting it's position and everyone knows what happens when you can't find who is shooting you, nor where to shoot back...
 
gf0012-aust

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Boagrius said:
In a broader sense I find it baffling how much of the criticism directed at the jet thus far misses the paradigm shifts that have occurred in air warfare over the last 20 years or so. The fact that it is ultimately a systems event is probably chief among them, and the F35's ability to perform as part of such a system strikes me as nigh on peerless.

Just my 2c.
Click to expand...
they've missed that point and the changes in air warfare fighting for the last 7 years.

now that Sweetman has a real job with NGD he might have a better appreciation
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top