Sounds good and makes sense even though it does fly in the face of AIR9000 and reducing the number of different types of helicopter in service. Then again with types like the Romeo, CH-47F and AH/MH-6 we hook straight into existsnt US systems through FMS, which would prove more advantageous in terms of training support and upgrade than just about any other procurement option. Just imagine UH-60M and AH-64D instead of Wombat and Toothless, straight SH-60B instead of our bespoke version and Super Sea Sprite. An analysis of these options verses what we actually did would be interesting as the FMS costs should be readily available for comparison and deciding how to do business in future.
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
With the new Attack/Recce program and the Long range CASR aircraft to come it could blow the AIR 9000 plan to cut the number of Helicopter types completely out of the water. We could end up with 7 or 8 again. But more important is that we have the right balance of capability.
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So long as they hook into a larger sustainment system it probably doesn't matter how many types we operate. The issue is when we go for unnecessary bespoke options then have to support them ourselves for two or three decades. I anticipate that the Romeo fleet, though far more complex should prove easier to support than either of our Australian Aerospace types.
My reading of the MRH90 reference was that the proposed upgrade would make some suitable to use for domestic special op roles. It seems to me that SOCOMB would much prefer US gear for warfighting roles outside of Australia and experience with the Tiger and MRH90 will make them very nervous about another Eurocopter purchase for anything other than training. I agree with AD that the MH-6/AH-6 is likely to be the front runner for the light helo requirement.
Tas
They've (SOCOMD) used baby hughies (NOTARS) for CT work in the past. I used to watch them practicing over the docks - prior to the "big shift"
John Newman
The Bunker Group
Whatever the goals or the aims of AIR 9000 were to cut the number of different types of helicopters in ADF service, I think that plan has been dead and buried for a while now.
Probably the real turning point was when the Government selected the MH-60R's to replace the older Seahawks (and failed SH-2G's), rather than the naval version of the MRH-90.
As to the number of types, yes they certainly will be expanded:
* CH-47F
* MRH-90
* MH-60R
* EC135 - HATS
* Whatever replaces the Tiger ARH (AH-64? AH-1? Who knows?)
* New capability - Light helicopter for the Special Forces, probably 'Little Bird'
* New capability - Combat Search & Rescue 'more speedily and at longer range', sort of points to the V-22 (my take on the 'wording' used in the DWP)
So that's seven (7) different types, potentially, but there is one type that appears to be missing (to me at least, and for the life of me I can't find any mention in either the DWP or DIIP??), and that is a capability to replace the Navy Squirrels and the Army Kiowa in their respective LUH roles, apart from basic training roles.
Is the light utility helicopter capability just going to disappear altogether(?) or am I missing something out of the DWP and DIIP?
With only 15 EC135's (I can imagine they will be restricted to use in the HATS role in their 'reduced' airframe numbers).
I know a replacement LUH capability is rather 'small beer' in the very big multi-billion dollars that the DWP is planning to spend, but still I can't help but wonder that there should have been some mention of a LUH capability.
Maybe an additional purchase of EC135's for that role, or their bigger brother the EC145 (in maybe the form of the US UH-72 Lakota perhaps?).
Sorry for the one liner but Lynx Wildcat to replace Squirrel/Kiowa and Mangusta to replace Tiger?
Anyone but Eurocopter :
John Newman
The Bunker Group
V, yes very funny, anyone but Eurocopter, ha ha!! But still you will just have to get used to the MRH-90's being around for a while to come yet!Sorry for the one liner but Lynx Wildcat to replace Squirrel/Kiowa and Mangusta to replace Tiger?
But seriously, am I missing something about a LUH type replacement being mentioned in either the DWP or DIPP, eg, there is no replacement as such?
Again I know a LUH is small beer, but if you were going to do a comparison to say the RAAF's AMG (formerly ALG), they have the big dogs at one end, C-17A, KC-30A, C-130J and at the very other end the King Airs.
Anyway, it still seems to me that there is a valid requirement at that bottom for a 'light' capability.
My reading of the DWP is that the light helo would be filling that same role (Scout, utility, transport, SF's etc), That being said the MH-6/AH-6 doesnt strike me as a LUH type aircraft so may be an argument to be made in expanding the EC135 fleet, I couldn't imagine the ADF acquiring anymore then two light helo types.
Who says the long ranged CSAR / AM capability will be operated by Army?
USAF do it for US forces. I'd expect RAAF would probably do the same for ADF.
If so, such an acquisition doesn't affect AIR-9000 at all...
I suppose it also depends what they select, a CH-47 derivative would logically fit with the Army, tiltrotors could go either way, a MH-60S could be Army, Navy or Airforce. Maybe the special forces support elements could be rolled into a joint force with crews and maintainers coming from any of the three services or even from outside the ADFas required.
the CSAR and pyjama rotary role is more than likely going to be with their current rotary support
I have actually long thought the army could do with a light helicopter to replace the Kiowa in its light utility, liaison and scouting roles with supplementary SAR and CASEVAC thrown in. Just a useful multirole light asset that could be a Bell 407 derivative, an Explorer, Lakota, something slightly bigger or smaller. From the sound of it the light attack, SOF support helicopter is not this and that is fine as is spec ops need it they need it and they will use it mercilessly, there will be bugger all opportunity for anyone else to play with it so their requirements simply don't matter.
Reading the various comments and interpretations I can definitely see the advantage of a FMS buy of US SPECOP standard Littlebirds and can see that they would likely be kept separate from the rest of the ADF most of the time. I was assuming this new light helicopter would be a replacement for the Kiowa's in 173
Sqn but apparently they, like 171 Sqn, currently operate Blackhawks with Kiowas used solely for training. This all very interesting and I can't wait to see how it pans out.
not sure I agree with this. if a pyjama role then I'm betting on existing aviation regiment doing the job - they train with them on a constant basis - and they're best qualified to blend the role into existing CONOPs.....
Australia Pulls the Plug on Defective Tiger Gunship
Any truth to this?
Any truth to this?
this has been covered very recently in here
quite frankly the quality of the responses to that editorial, and the quality and tone of that editorial itself should have most sane people running from the room
t68
Well-Known Member
Was there any truth to the story at one stage pilots refused to fly the aircraft?
Volk I think that was with the F-22 I could be wrong but I haven't see that issue come up for the F-35