NZDF General discussion thread

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Great! I can just see it now, NZDF has modernised, capable forces but can't maintain the gear or deploy because they have no support personnel!....

More politically driven ideology....


Hundreds of Defence Force jobs set to go - National - NZ Herald News
Yes I saw that on the TVNZ news tonight. It was the first item. I have to wonder myself and how much of the paper that Goff has cited is actually policy and how much is just suggestions at the moment. I am of the opinion that Treasury has far to much input and the same goes for the trade wonks over at MFAT.

Our illustrious Minister is over in the PRC at the moment visiting the PLA and the PRC Defence Minister. This is from his speech at the PLA National Defence University in Beijing.
New Zealand is increasingly affected by events and tensions beyond our immediate region. As a consequence of our global interests, we have an important stake in upholding a rules-based international order. Threats to this order cut across borders.

Cyberspace has brought New Zealand economically and socially closer to the world, but this connectivity also carries increased risks. Cyber threats are growing markedly, both in quantity and variety. They can emanate from anywhere and target any of us. Countries must recognise their shared interests in cyberspace, and respond effectively to malicious activity.

Terrorism is an issue that reaches across the globe and affects many nations, including China. We share the international community's outrage at Daesh's brutal actions. New Zealand is not immune to terrorism – our security agencies must monitor a sizeable number of supporters of Daesh within New Zealand, and some have travelled to fight in Syria. The New Zealand Government has responded to this threat. We are contributing humanitarian assistance, and recently accepted an intake of 750 Syrian refugees displaced by the fighting. Significantly, the New Zealand Defence Force is working in partnership with the Australian Defence Force to support a military training mission in Iraq. To date 1600 Iraqi Armed Forces personnel have passed through our training programme. We are proud of the contribution our troops are making towards a more secure Iraq.

In addition to terrorism and cyber threats, the rules based international order is coming under increased pressure from strategic rivalry. We have observed greater willingness of countries to get involved in conflicts outside of the UN system and international law. While there is low risk of a major interstate conflict, this risk has been rising over the last five years. A rules based system is particularly important for ensuring continued freedom of navigation and collective maritime security.

.......

New Zealand and Trade
As I’ve said, New Zealand is a maritime nation. And like China we rely heavily on free access to major shipping routes and sea lanes of communication for our own economic prosperity. Our national security interests stretch as far as our trade routes do, from those to our principal and closest trading partner Australia, to those as far afield as Europe, here in North Asia, and to the Americas. Because New Zealand's interests in the maritime domain are truly global, our contribution to preserving these interests must also extend globally. For example, in the Gulf of Aden, New Zealand has been contributing to the fight against piracy off the Horn of Africa.

.....

Positive Security Factors in the Asia Pacific
While I have covered today many of the challenges to regional and global security, I believe that overall the positive factors outweigh the negatives. Our region is more economically integrated that ever. Even in the global financial crisis, countries chose to stimulate their economies without returning to economic protectionism. In fact, free trade has expanded since the downturn. As I said earlier, free trade pacts, including the Trans Pacific Partnership, are crucial guarantees of economic prosperity, increased security and peace through interdependence.

New Zealand has welcomed the US rebalance into the Asia-Pacific. We have benefited from this move, and consider the rebalance a positive factor for regional security. We do not see our defence relationships with the United States and China as mutually exclusive. We believe that the United States and China want the same thing for the Asia-Pacific – peace and prosperity. This is New Zealand’s desire as well, and we will work with all parties to achieve this outcome. To do this, it is crucial to maintain inclusive dialogue mechanisms, ensuring that all nations are well integrated into a rules-based international order. This will allow us to address some of the region's most pressing collective challenges, such as the potential for strategic rivalry around territorial disputes.

South China Sea
Economic interdependence, and our mutual stake in maritime trade, provides clear incentives to manage maritime and territorial disputes peacefully. This must be matched with equal measures to build an open and inclusive regional order where security, freedom of navigation, and overflight, and open trade routes are managed in accordance with international laws and norms.

The South China Sea has been a prominent issue in regional security discussions this year. It is of particular importance to New Zealand, reliant as we are on seaborne trade and the security and freedom of navigation for our economic prosperity and well-being. Over half of New Zealand's maritime trade passes through the South China Sea. While we take no position on the various claims in the South China Sea, New Zealand opposes actions that undermine peace and erode trust. We are concerned that developments have outstripped regional efforts to manage tensions. We call on all claimant states to take steps to reduce tensions. We want to see swift progress in fully implementing the Declaration of Conduct and rapid conclusion of the Code of Conduct negotiations to build a better framework for managing activity in the area.

The role of international law and international institutions is important in finding long-terms solutions to these disputes. New Zealand supports the right of states to access international dispute settlement mechanisms as well as solving disputes through bilateral negotiations. It is important that we respect the outcome of such processes.I addressed this issue when I spoke to the Shangri-La Dialogue in May.

All big countries are made much bigger, in every sense of the word, by recognising their strengths and confidently sharing and defusing concerns of smaller countries. By recognising these concerns and seeking dialogue in the settlement of issues, it is the mark of a big country. As we would say in New Zealand, it confers what in the indigenous Māori language we call ‘mana,’ or respect, for other nations.
Whilst he is talking the talk about defence and how we have large areas to cover etc., he is not walking the walk. Unfortunately for NZ, both the major political parties talk the talk about defence but when it comes to paying for it they sure have real long pockets and very short arms. I did have a vague hope that we may have turned a corner. However if the TVNZ story as repeated by the NZ Herald is half right then we haven't.
 

kiwi in exile

Active Member
Yes I saw that on the TVNZ news tonight. It was the first item. I have to wonder myself and how much of the paper that Goff has cited is actually policy and how much is just suggestions at the moment. I am of the opinion that Treasury has far to much input and the same goes for the trade wonks over at MFAT.
Just when it felt like we were moving in the right direction. I don't trust the current gov in terms of openness and transparency, but you could easily imagine that Goff is trying to score points here. Brownlee has released figures suggesting growth in NZDF numbers into the near future.

A pay frieze may also be on the cards:
Defence minister, not panda pimp | Scoop News

Some will claim left wing media beatup
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Just when it felt like we were moving in the right direction. I don't trust the current gov in terms of openness and transparency, but you could easily imagine that Goff is trying to score points here. Brownlee has released figures suggesting growth in NZDF numbers into the near future.

A pay frieze may also be on the cards:
Defence minister, not panda pimp | Scoop News

Some will claim left wing media beatup
Yeah latest supposedly is that it's all Labour party spin, a horrible mistake! :confused:

Frankly I don't trust pollies in either side of the house but I guess now that Brownlee has vehemently denied it, it will be very hard for him to do a u-turn on the matter.

Claims of defence staffing slash 'disappointing' and 'incorrect' - Brownlee | Stuff.co.nz
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Yeah latest supposedly is that it's all Labour party spin, a horrible mistake! :confused:

Frankly I don't trust pollies in either side of the house but I guess now that Brownlee has vehemently denied it, it will be very hard for him to do a u-turn on the matter.

Claims of defence staffing slash 'disappointing' and 'incorrect' - Brownlee | Stuff.co.nz
All three service chiefs have put out statements denying any such plan. They are on the relevant service Facebook pages. It appears that Goff has taken one model that was assessed and discarded during the DMRR assessment stage, and gobbed off about it without any context.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The DTA believes it has created the world's first fully-portable unit for measuring ship signatures, the acoustic, pressure, magnetic and seismic "footprint" of a vessel. The signatures allow a ship to be picked up by enemy radar and, potentially, underwater mines.

After more than 20 years of research and development, the DTA has been able to shrink a unit the size of a 20ft shipping container into something relative in scale to a wheelie-bin.

Its value, financially and to human life, could prove colossal. It is potentially destined for action with British and American forces in the Persian Gulf.
The Defence Technology Agency has been developing an ability to design and build technologies that are being sought by our friends and allies. It's great for them and I hope that the money they earn is returned to them and not disappearing into the consolidated fund or general NZDF coffers.
 

Zero Alpha

New Member
The Defence Technology Agency has been developing an ability to design and build technologies that are being sought by our friends and allies. It's great for them and I hope that the money they earn is returned to them and not disappearing into the consolidated fund or general NZDF coffers.
From what I've seen of them, I doubt they'll be able to sell any. The just don't have the people with the commercial experience behind them to get a product to market. They'd be better selling the details to someone else to commercialise.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
From what I've seen of them, I doubt they'll be able to sell any. The just don't have the people with the commercial experience behind them to get a product to market. They'd be better selling the details to someone else to commercialise.
Well they have sold mine clearance instruction dummy mines to the US. They fully replicate mines in all aspects except when the trainees make a mistake and the mine goes off, instead of exploding it usually plays a song along the lines of the likes of "When I'm dead and gone" etc. It's not about commercial expertise, it's about providing the tools needed and these aren't for sale on the open market. They go to a very select few.
 

Zero Alpha

New Member
Well they have sold mine clearance instruction dummy mines to the US. They fully replicate mines in all aspects except when the trainees make a mistake and the mine goes off, instead of exploding it usually plays a song along the lines of the likes of "When I'm dead and gone" etc. It's not about commercial expertise, it's about providing the tools needed and these aren't for sale on the open market. They go to a very select few.
Providing a good product and making money from it are two very different things. Good luck to them.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Providing a good product and making money from it are two very different things. Good luck to them.
The DTA developing this after such long term R&D investment will provide a further test case for MBIE, NZTE et al in seeing if IP / Innovation developed locally can actually meet the lofty objectives that countless government policies have banged on about for decades. Only recently has commercial marketplace realities such as selling stuff to get a ROI has entered policy considerations. I always assumed that previous governments thought that having a grand policy strategy, throwing some money at it and through fiscal magic - truckloads of money would be made. Hopefully we are moving past the era of licensing out tech and IP for overseas manufacturing and eventual sale and loss of control.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
Ministry of Defence and NZDF Annual Reports have just appeared on their respective websites.

I'll ost a few stand-out oints that ctach my eye, but well worth looking thrugh in detail for anyone wanting to see what NZ's defence forces wll be working on in the immediate future.

Here IS ONE snippet from the NZMD report.

New projects
Cabinet has approved the commencement of the source selection process for the following projects:

In June 2014, Cabinet approved the Secretary of Defence calling competitive tenders for the Underwater Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance Project.

In June 2014, Cabinet approved the Secretary of Defence calling competitive tenders for the Maritime Sustainment Capability Project.

In May 2015, Cabinet approved the acquisition of the Network Enabled Army – Tranche 1, with a total budget of $106.0 million.

In June 2015, Cabinet approved the Secretary of Defence acquiring a small number of Special Operations Vehicles, equipment, infrastructure and support on a sole source basis subject to consultation prior to contract signature with the Minister of Defence and Chief of Defence Force. The total budget is $28 million.
 

htbrst

Active Member
The Southern Katipo exercise is on again - 2000 personnel from New Zealand and eight other countries. The normal NZ aircraft, ships and equipment with some C-130's and C-17's along with a French Frigate.

The most notable visitor appears to be a Global Hawk flying over and returning to Guam.

There are normally some good pictures on the exercises facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/SouthernKatipo
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
On a diffferent topic, I noticed the 3 news report today mentioned more unrest in Fiji, and police chief quiting his post complaining about Fijian army interference in making arrests, and more human rights abuses. Why are we training with them again? And why havent we, and i mean Nz ,Austrailia been able to topple these dictatorships, surely it falls within our juristriction , dont we combined have that ability,havent we already interviened in east timor over similar human rights abuses?
 

t68

Well-Known Member
On a diffferent topic, I noticed the 3 news report today mentioned more unrest in Fiji, and police chief quiting his post complaining about Fijian army interference in making arrests, and more human rights abuses. Why are we training with them again? And why havent we, and i mean Nz ,Austrailia been able to topple these dictatorships, surely it falls within our juristriction , dont we combined have that ability,havent we already interviened in east timor over similar human rights abuses?
We intervened in ET as it was a pro independence vote on the cards, milita trying to disrupt the vote with violence and systematic abuse. Fiji on the other hand is an independant nation with a penchant for coups d‘etat, unless foreign nationals are in direct danger is the only time we would intervene.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
We intervened in ET as it was a pro independence vote on the cards, milita trying to disrupt the vote with violence and systematic abuse. Fiji on the other hand is an independant nation with a penchant for coups d‘etat, unless foreign nationals are in direct danger is the only time we would intervene.
We can't interfere in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation and I would not want to go up against the Fijians in their homeland. They would be a quite dangerous foe. Also we could expect Chinese involvement of some sort if we did go in uninvited.
 
Last edited:
We can't interfere in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation and I would not want to go up against the Fijians in their homeland. They would be a quite dangerous foe. Also we could expect Chinese involvement of some sort if we did go in uninvited.
I agree to an extant Ngati, but I don't see the Chinese Govt becoming involved (except possibly through diplomatic means).

Yes, Fiji (like Vanuatu), does has heavy Chinese investment/ presence across many primary industries and infra-related projects, but much of the relationship is commercial in nature

I recall the PLAN hospital ships (as the USN) visit every 3-4 years on aid missions, but that's as far as their regional footprint extends
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
We can't interfere in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation and I would not want to go up against the Fijians in their homeland. They would be a quite dangerous foe. Also we could expect Chinese involvement of some sort if we did go in uninvited.
I know they have a reputation as good soldiers, but we trained them, after all. And from what the Fijian military website is telling me, while they have a similar sized army, they dont have the equipment,Artillery, armour, vehicles,small arms, or any air power or naval power except maybe a a few lightly armed patrol boats. And when was the last time they were brought up to speed with modern training exersizes we do, do they have the ability to conduct special forces ops,or run a regiment, let alone 4 regular force ones on such a tiny budget, 75 million? Surprised we let tourists go there if they are so unruly to their own people.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I know they have a reputation as good soldiers, but we trained them, after all. And from what the Fijian military website is telling me, while they have a similar sized army, they dont have the equipment,Artillery, armour, vehicles,small arms, or any air power or naval power except maybe a a few lightly armed patrol boats. And when was the last time they were brought up to speed with modern training exersizes we do, do they have the ability to conduct special forces ops,or run a regiment, let alone 4 regular force ones on such a tiny budget, 75 million? Surprised we let tourists go there if they are so unruly to their own people.
There are over 2000 Fijians serving in the British Forces with the majority in the army all with experience in Afghanistan with modern equipment. I suspect they would be high tailing it back to there if the proverbial hit the fan and I for one won't be facing a angry, well trained giant defending his home patch.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
There are over 2000 Fijians serving in the British Forces with the majority in the army all with experience in Afghanistan with modern equipment. I suspect they would be high tailing it back to there if the proverbial hit the fan and I for one won't be facing a angry, well trained giant defending his home patch.
Not sure if they would be willing to leave a well paid army career in britain to return to the low paid quagmire of fiji,even if they did, would britian be giving them the needed armour,artillary, and navy, air support, they dont have?i think not, especially if thier civilians are threatened, And hardly a giant, numbers wise only 2 active regiments in the main islands 2 others are scattered throught the islands,and counting that two thousand, similar size to our regular force plus territorial units,with none of the gear. But significantly less than NZDF, as a whole.
 
Top