Russian Navy Discussions and Updates

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
That's true, I always thought they'd pursue damages whatever cost simply down to principle. Unless they're thinking about another (cheaper) way to stick it to the French in response.
It's more likely that they don't want another issue to fight over with the west. Especially a relatively friendly country like France.

I think the Russians would be content just for a refund. The French are quite pro-Russian and while litigation might succeed it would be a strategic loss given the damage to that relationship.
This is probably spot on. Given that they already have problems with Europe over Ukraine, I don't think they want to make it worse.

They could just be biding their time until things settle down so they can restart this project or kick off a new one in a few years.

Personally I am surprised the project ever got off the ground after what happened in Georgia, I know it was that conflict that highlighted the need for such vessels to the Russians but the pattern of events that led to it should have been more than adequate warning of what was in line for other neighbours Russia thought may be straying to close to the west. It was glaringly obvious that that Russia wanted the ships to better be able to project power and to give them another option, another way into any troublesome neighbours or republics.
There's nothing surprising about that. Think back to the EU commission report on the War in Georgia. The OSCE essentially confirmed the key points of the Russian claims, namely that Georgia struck first, hit Russian peacekeepers there on an international mandate (one the Saakashvili government itself signed), and violated international agreements in an internationally recognized conflict zone in an attempt to resolve the conflict by force. Honestly if it wasn't for the current conflict in Ukraine, France would be extremely happy to deliver the ships, and help with the construction of another 2 or even more vessels. It would have given French military industrial companies unprecedented inroads in the Russian market, and given problems with Russian shipbuilding, it could have led to greater French involvement in Russian Naval programs in general.

IIRC France is trying to flog SSK's and MdCN to Poland, could potentially be a larger sale than the LHDs (in my mind, i have zero numbers to back that up) to a friendly state than a lower sale to an unfriendly state.
France and Russia are actually rather friendly. I think that France is cancelling the contract because the war in Ukraine is not winding down, and they can't hand over the ships unless the war comes to an end. While there remained hope for a relatively quick resolution, they kept talking about potential future deliveries, but now it looks like the situation in Ukraine is going to be around for a while.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
A refund gets Russia some quick cash and by keeping this out of the courts this maintains their relationship with minimal degradation as per previous comments. The next chapter is what will France be willing to do to unload these ships? Keeping even one would be economically difficult given the more pressing needs for the French navy.
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
A refund gets Russia some quick cash and by keeping this out of the courts this maintains their relationship with minimal degradation as per previous comments. The next chapter is what will France be willing to do to unload these ships? Keeping even one would be economically difficult given the more pressing needs for the French navy.


FRANCE TO KEEP THE TWO Mistrals, Pay 1.2B EU

Report: France to Keep Russian Mistrals In Planned $1.2 Billion Deal - USNI News
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The MN would like one, if it can have the money to pay for operating it, but I expect they'll both be put up for sale.

Brazil's amphibious fleet is in a dire state, & although Brazilian shipyards would lobby against it, I expect the navy would love them. Three of four ships are more than 45 years old - one was laid down in 1955!. None has a hangar, & only one has a dock.
 

Goknub

Active Member
It's a bit left field but what about the Germans?

Their amphibious capability is quite weak and there is pressure from the Americans for them to do more globally. It would also be a nice Franco/German partnership which would play well politically.

Funding would obviously be an issue but could be overcome.
 

wsb05

Member
It's a bit left field but what about the Germans?

Their amphibious capability is quite weak and there is pressure from the Americans for them to do more globally. It would also be a nice Franco/German partnership which would play well politically.

Funding would obviously be an issue but could be overcome.
Saudi Arabia? :p
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
It's a bit left field but what about the Germans?

Their amphibious capability is quite weak and there is pressure from the Americans for them to do more globally. It would also be a nice Franco/German partnership which would play well politically.

Funding would obviously be an issue but could be overcome.
German shipyards would go ape$hit. IMO, politically impossible for the German government. Perhaps one could go to NATO and likely France will have to keep the second one.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Brazil's amphibious fleet is in a dire state, & although Brazilian shipyards would lobby against it, I expect the navy would love them. Three of four ships are more than 45 years old - one was laid down in 1955!. None has a hangar, & only one has a dock.
Brazil also have pretty strong local content rules, even if the vessel is built offshore they still like getting Brazilian suppliers involved.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Yeah, but Brazil also has a habit of buying secondhand, where local content rules only seem to apply to any work done to fit them for Brazilian navy use, even where a ship is new, but not accepted by the intended customer, as with the three Trinidad & Tobago OPVs bought three years ago. So the local content rules shouldn't be a bar.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
So the second Ivan Gren is about to be laid down. I wonder how they plan to actually equip it. They changed the lead ship over and over again. It'll be called Petr Morgunov.

Given the age, and dwindling numbers of Soviet BDKs, with the Mistral deal now cancelled, these ships will be extremely important, and the VMF needs a big production run. Maybe 15-20 ships, if they can pay for it.

Берлога Бронемедведа - "Петр Моргунов"

Apparently an aircraft carrier is planned in the 2026-7 timeframe.

A new BDK is planned. I'm not sure whether this refers to a modified 11711, or a new project entirely.

4 of the 8 BPK (ASubW Destroyers) will be upgraded.

New hovercraft are planned. Unsurprising, now that they have the factory in Feodosiya.

Ground Effect Vechiles are also planned, but this is probably the smaller ones, for maybe the Arctic.

Patrol ships for the arctic are planned that can also serve as icebreakers and tugs. The project is close to completing the initial offer to see if the MoD will approve.

nortwolf_sam - У ВМФ будет новый паруÑнÐк и патрульные корабли арктичеÑкой зоны
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
So at the Army-2015 forum we have seen 3 new large ships' models displayed. Most prominent for us is the UDK Priboy. It's a Mistral-like LHD, but Russian. It will carry 8 helos, and have a displacement of ~14500 tonns. It will also carry the Pantsyr-M.

There's confusion because Nevskoe PKB officially denies designing the Priboy displayed, or indeed any "Mistral-like" ship, but their own annual report includes NIR Kashalot. It may mean that NIR Kashalot refers to another landing ship project, or maybe their PR department is just confused.

Берлога Бронемедведа - УДК проекта "Прибой"
nortwolf_sam - Модель универÑального деÑантного ÐºÐ¾Ñ€Ð°Ð±Ð»Ñ "Прибой" на форуме "ÐрмиÑ-2015"
nortwolf_sam - УДК ÐИÐ* «Кашалот». Годовой отчет ÐевÑкого ПКБ за 2014г.
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1337662.html

Less interesting and more insane, OKR Lider may have turned into a nuclear battleship. Carrying 60 SS-N missiles, and 138 SAMs, with a displacement of 17500 tonns, and nuclear propulsion, it looks like a sci-fi-esque monstrosity, that really has no place in the modern world. Although there is some dispute about whether this ship, project 23560E is indeed the same as OKR Lider-1.

In fact there seem to be two variants of this behemoth, one with an extended helo deck capable of carrying maybe 4 helos.

nortwolf_sam - Модель ÐºÐ¾Ñ€Ð°Ð±Ð»Ñ Ð¾ÐºÐµÐ°Ð½Ñкой зоны пр. 23560Ð* на форуме "ÐрмиÑ-2015"
http://www.balancer.ru/cache/sites/com/im/imgur/i/640x640/aqsfa1d.jpg

It gets more confusing since this source says it will have the 60 cruise/anti ship missiles, but only 14000 tons displacement with 350 crew, and the lead ship will be laid down in 2017.

http://twower.livejournal.com/1691966.html

There's also a new aircraft carrier project. Project 23000E. Given the swarms of fantastic looking navalized PAK-FAs, the unspecified AEWs, and the huge size of the ship, this one belongs in the science fiction section.

nortwolf_sam - Модель авианоÑца пр. 23000Ð* на форуме "ÐрмиÑ-2015"

And real trials of the Orion ground effect vehicles. Orion-20 in size is comparable to the Soviet Orlenok. I wonder what they intend to do with them.

«ИÑпытательные полеты Ñкранопланов Орион-14 и 82;рион-20» в блоге «СудоÑтроение и ÑудоходÑтво » - Сделано у наÑ

Also the antique Be-12 "flying boats" will remain in service longer. Overhaul has begun of several planes at Evpatoriya, in Crimea.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1339356.html
 

kev 99

Member
Russian Navy planning seems to have been existing in some sort of fantasy fleet bubble for a while now; returning Kirov's and as many of their laid up SSN's to service as possible and at the same time producing a replacement for the Kirov and an enormous new carrier project. Just where is the money for all this going to come from?

The Russian airforce seems to be doing something similar with recent announcements about restarting production of TU-160, at the same time as designing a replacement (PAK-DA).

I have been wondering for some time if there is any truth to these 'plans' or are they just announcements to pull the wool over the people's eyes.

This isn't the first time I've seen a design like the nuclear cruiser like in the model above, all I need to do now is decide whether to call it a 'Kirwalt', or a 'Zumrov', although the superstructure does remind me a little of a Japanese WWII era battleship.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
So that's what I saw back in May, I saw the smaller one on the back of a low loader minus wings on the road between Nizhy Novgorod and Ivanovo.
 

alexkvaskov

New Member
Just where is the money for all this going to come from?

The Russian airforce seems to be doing something similar with recent announcements about restarting production of TU-160, at the same time as designing a replacement (PAK-DA).

I have been wondering for some time if there is any truth to these 'plans' or are they just announcements to pull the wool over the people's eyes.
The airforce's design bureaus and production facilities are generally in better shape than their naval counterparts so I'd say the AF is more likely to see some of their fantasies come to fruition, however money is a major issue for rearmament regardless of the branch of force.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Russian Navy planning seems to have been existing in some sort of fantasy fleet bubble for a while now; returning Kirov's and as many of their laid up SSN's to service as possible and at the same time producing a replacement for the Kirov and an enormous new carrier project. Just where is the money for all this going to come from?
I suspect that a lot of it is just pretty picture and fancy models.

The Russian airforce seems to be doing something similar with recent announcements about restarting production of TU-160, at the same time as designing a replacement (PAK-DA).
I think what they're doing is putting the PAK-DA on back burner, and focusing on a more realistic project; an upgraded Tu-160 with PGM capability.

I have been wondering for some time if there is any truth to these 'plans' or are they just announcements to pull the wool over the people's eyes.
A little bit of column A, a little bit of column B.

This isn't the first time I've seen a design like the nuclear cruiser like in the model above, all I need to do now is decide whether to call it a 'Kirwalt', or a 'Zumrov', although the superstructure does remind me a little of a Japanese WWII era battleship.
It's under OKR Lider (Leader) so...
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Anyways, it might be that the little model we saw isn't the Priboy after all. Here's a display board from the Army-2015 forum. This is from Nevskoe. Apparently the other model is from the Krylov center. Nevskoe is doing the actual design work. Apparently it will be a Rotterdam-style landing ship. Which makes a little more sense given that the model we saw had a 57mm AA gun and no Pantsyr, where as the statement issued talked about a Pantsyr-M SAM.

On a related note the head of the USC (United Shipbuilding Corporation) said that they have received the ToT on the Mistral deal.

Берлога Бронемедведа - ÐаÑчет УДК "Прибой"
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...=a10fbf4e4d7c311ff7edd118b4f8f734&oe=55F35C17
Берлога Бронемедведа - По куÑочкам

And a new corvette/frigate is planned on the project 20382 base. Details are lacking but apparently it will have a displacement of 4000 tonns.

Берлога Бр½ÐµÐ¼ÐµÐ´Ð²ÐµÐ´Ð° - Тигр, Тигр, жгучий Ñтрах, Ты горишь в ночных леÑах (Ñ)
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Ive found this: ÂÌÔ çà ïÿòü ëåò ïîëó÷èò ÷åòûðå òðàëüùèêà ïðîåêòà "Àëåêñàíäðèò"

Its about the new Alexandrit Class minesweepers, but i dont understand Russian.
There is also a photo of "Aleksandr Obukhof" at a shipyard, but is this the first hull of the class? According to wikipedia a second hull is already under construction.
Yes, that's the first hull. And according to your link, 3 more are under construction.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Some updates, from the Naval Salon in St. Petersburg.

Only 3 11356 frigates will be built. The rest will be replaced by a new small missile ship, the project 22800. It will have a missile package, probably Kalibr, a 76mm gun, 2X30mm guns, and a missile-artillery complex (either Kortik or Pantsyr-M).

The engines for the second 22350 frigate have been ordered from Saturn. It looks like they're making long-term corrections to deal with the lack of Zorya engines.

bmpd - Возможный облик малого ракетного ÐºÐ¾Ñ€Ð°Ð±Ð»Ñ Ð¿Ñ€Ð¾ÐµÐºÑ‚Ð° 22800
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - ÐовоÑти МВМС-2015
http://alexeyvvo.livejournal.com/115880.html

Also 8 project 1155 ships will be upgraded and modernized. They will remain in service, with new Kalibr and Oniks missiles.

Добро пожаловать в журнал Ð*оÑтовÑкого Орла - ÐовоÑти ВМФ от Главкома

The project 20386 corvette was also presented. Note that it has a space for a module to be installed, carrying whatever desired, in addition to the basic weapon layout (similar to the 20380s). I suggest clicking the link, some of the slides are in english.

Добро пожаловать в журнал Ð*оÑтовÑкого Орла - Корвет 20386. Оружие и модульноÑÑ‚ÑŒ.
nortwolf_sam - Модель корвета пр. 20386 на МВМС-2015

Container based versions of Uran and Kalibr cruise missiles.

Добро пожаловать в журнал Ð*оÑтовÑкого Орла - Контейнерные ракетные комплекÑÑ‹ "Уран" и "Калибр"

The oldest 1144 Kirov is getting scrapped. This time for sure. The fate of Lazarev remains unknown, and Nahkimov is actually being modernized.

bmpd - Про утилизацию Ñ‚Ñжелого атомного ракетного крейÑера "Киров"

Zelenodol'sk Shipyard presented their "patrol corvette". The project is in principle cancelled, but this may change.

nortwolf_sam - ЗеленодольÑкий корвет ОВÐ*
nortwolf_sam - Модель корвета ОВÐ* от ЗеленодольÑкого ПКБ â„– 2

Pantsyr-M has entered serial production, it looks like it may have a different number of missiles, or even different cannons. Details are hazy.

Â«ÐšÐ¾Ð¼Ð¿Ð»ÐµÐºÑ Â«ÐŸÐ°Ð½Ñ†Ð¸Ñ€ÑŒ-М» запущен в Ñерийное производÑтво» в блоге «ÐÑ€Ð¼Ð¸Ñ Ð¸ Флот» - Сделано у наÑ
bmpd - Ðовый облик корабельного ЗÐ*ПК "Панцирь-Ðœ"

Meanwhile, some Ka-29s, in flying condition. Keep in mind that while they are planned as the main transport helo for the AVMF, only a handful are operational today. Apparently a few have been overhauled recently.

http://eagle-rost.livejournal.com/445486.html
http://eagle-rost.livejournal.com/492383.html

I've also finally got clarification on Russian LHD projects. The Priboy from Nevskoe is a Rotterdam-style LHD, while the model I posted earlier is the Lavina from Krylov. The Priboy is supposed to carry 6-8 helos, while the Lavina a full 24. Incredibly, the Lavina will have a nose-ramp, like current Russian BDKs, in addition to the 6 (six!) landing boats inside of it.

http://prokhor-tebin.livejournal.com/886648.html
http://panzerbar.livejournal.com/2660232.html
http://www.military-informant.com/f...otali-vtoroj-korabl-na-zamenu-mistralyam.html
 
Last edited:

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Yes, that's the first hull. And according to your link, 3 more are under construction.
Thank you Feanor!
Only 3 11356 frigates will be built. The rest will be replaced by a new small missile ship, the project 22800.
Number 4 and 5 are already under construction, isnt it?
Will they be just cancelled, on hold or sold to an export costumer?

And why is Project 11356 canceled in favour of 22800? Because the 18 New Project 22800 Corvettes will Supplement the Buyan-M Corvettes.
 
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