The $1bn includes frames, sustainment and base upgrades
ie the $300m beyond frame price is inclusive of sustainment and facilities upgrades
ie the $300m beyond frame price is inclusive of sustainment and facilities upgrades
Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates
John Newman
The Bunker Group
Hi t68,
To be honest I don't know if I'm right or wrong either, but according to everything that has been said or written up to this stage, it does appear that things are progressing to plan, and I honestly didn't think that we would see an announcement for the total 'possible' extra four at this stage (again based on all that has been said and written), anyway, just have to wait and see what's in the new DWP!!
As far as 'odd' numbers in squadron sizes, well if you have a look across the board with various other RAAF squadrons, 12 does not appear to be a 'standard':
* E-7A - one squadron of 6
* AP-3C's - two squadrons of 10 originally (before the recent scrapping of 3 airframes plus the loss of one many years ago)
* P-8A - one squadron of 8 (possibly will increase to 12 if the option of four extra is exercised).
* Classic Hornet - As I understand it the 'nominal' squadron size is 15 and that the replacement F-35A's will be the same 'nominal' 15 airframes.
* KC-30A - one squadron of 5, and so on with other ADF aircraft squadrons.
As far as the C-27J fleet is concerned, it will be interesting to see if the RAAF does look into purchasing some of the proposed palletised 'gunship' systems that are being developed for the C-27J. If they do purchase that RO/RO gunship system, I wonder if it would also come with a few extra airframes too or if they would just utilise the existing 10 airframes?
And also talking of the KC-30A, with a fleet of five (the three options to take the fleet to eight expired a long time ago), they are going to get very very busy by the mid 2020's with the majority of the RAAF's air refuelling capable aircraft being 'boom only' aircraft.
It might sound funny to some here, but if I had the choice of increasing the C-17A fleet from 8 to 10 or see those very scarce defence 'dollars' go elsewhere, I'd like to see the KC-30A fleet reach at least eight airframes, possibly ten!!
Anyway, I'm not in charge of the choices and that's probably not likely to happen!!!
Last edited:
John Newman
The Bunker Group
It's interesting to see the variations (in dollar values), of expenditure quoted (especially for the same aircraft!).
A few days ago (around March 30th) Canada received its 5th C-17A (the first of the 10 white tails), the 'cost price' quoted on the Canadian 'Defence Watch' blog website was $415m.
Now of course that would be in C$'s, and as I understand it the exchange rate difference between the C$ and the A$ is almost the same (the C$ is worth a few more cents than the A$), so pretty comparable.
Our PM has said that off the $1B being spent (and I'm sure he would be talking Aussie dollars too), $700m is for the two airframes, certainly 'appears' to be cheaper than the Canadian purchase, but of course it all depends what is or is not included.
Then if we have a look back at the DSCA notification from November last year for the possible sale of 'up to four' C-17A's for the RAAF, the following paragraph is interesting reading:
"The Government of Australia has requested a possible sale of up to 4 C-17A Globemaster III aircraft, 19 F117-PW-100 Pratt & Whitney engines, 4 AN/AAQ-24V Large Aircraft Infrared Countermeasures (LAIRCM) Systems, 4 Small Laser Transmitter Assemblies, 4 System Processors, 4 AN/AAR-54 Missile Warning Sensors, 1 AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser, 1 AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning System, 5 Trimble Force 524 Receivers, 2 GAS-1 Antenna Units, 2 Controlled Reception Pattern Antennas, 1 AN-USC-43V Advanced Narrowband Voice Terminal, 16 Honeywell H-764 ACE Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems, spare and repair parts, supply and test equipment, personnel training and training equipment, publications and technical documentation, United States Government and contractor engineering, logistics, and technical support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost for up to four C-17As, support and services is $1.609 billion."
That's a 'total' package cost of US$1.609 billion, or if divided by four, then it's a fraction over US$400m each airframe (including each airframes 'share' of the 'extras' too). I just converted US$1.6B to A$ and it works out at $2.08b Aussie Dollars, or a bit over $500m per airframe (including it's share of the extras)!!
If you look at it the other way the approximate A$700m we are paying for the 2 C-17A's announced today that works out to US$540.59 for them, or roughly US$270m each.
I would 'suspect' that the price we are paying for these two airframes, compared to the 'up to four' airframes in the November DSCA announcement doesn't 'include' all the extras, possibly by the time of the new DWP and if we do acquire the extra two (9 and 10) then the price we pay for those two extra may end up higher as it will include 'more' of the extra's mentioned in the DSCA notification.
It certainly makes it hard to work out a 'base' airframe cost that's for sure!!
meatshield
Active Member
What a great day!! Wake up from a night shift sleep to the news that the RAAF are getting 2 new C17's! And then to cap it off one flies over the house!! (rockhampton)..... Great day
GF would be able to explain it better than I can, but basically it comes down to how each individual Government counts their costs in the books, the Australian way of calculating and pricing procurements for all of Defence includes a lot of different things for through life cost etc, so generally our Government quoted price on like for like acquisitions tends to be higher than say the US/UK etc, Canada would do it a different way as well
Thats why you cant compare apples with apples on cost, it all comes down to how it is all accounted in the books
Cheers
Thats why you cant compare apples with apples on cost, it all comes down to how it is all accounted in the books
Cheers
John Newman
The Bunker Group
I agree 100% and do fully understand that, but it was just interesting to see the large variations in cost for the 'same' aircraft purchase by Canada (one airframe) and Australia (two airframes).
But what I thought was most interesting was that the DSCA notification's 'package' price for the four C-17A's was close to $2.1B Australian, again not just the four airframes, but all the associated goodies too, and yet with the announcement today the Government actually 'stated' that the airframe component of the $1B package was $700m (which is US$540m for the two airframes).
Normally I'd expect to see a 'higher' cost quoted at our end because of all the 'extra's' involved, but in fact it 'appears' that what the Government is quoting as the cost of the two airframes actually looks 'cheaper' that what the DSCA notification suggests.
So yes, agree, apples and apples it aint!!
the extra frames doesn't mean that the sustainment and base costs are going to be proportional - some of those costs will have already been picked up as sunk costs in the initial buys
eg once you have establishment fees etc then things like lengthening and weight factoring of the tarmacs is already done - so that cost falls out of future purchases
etc etc etc
I'd say it probably is still on the table, the USAF have quiet a few more than they actually need, I'm pretty sure if Australia or anyone else wanted some additional aircraft they would be relatively easy to come by.
According to the US press, Boeing has five C-17s remaining unsold.
Australia to order 2 Long Beach-assembled Boeing C-17s
Surely today's announcement must be for frames 9 and 10 as the announcement for frames 7 and 8 was made several months ago; otherwise today's announcement is just a reannouncment of an earlier announcement.
The government probably knows by now what is basically in the upcoming DWP and want to included the funding in next month's Budget.
The government probably knows by now what is basically in the upcoming DWP and want to included the funding in next month's Budget.
Saw the photo op on TV and the uniform with the PM explicitly said these new aircraft are 7 and 8 as they are struggling to meet demand with the current 6.
So there are 5 whitetails left and Australia want another 2. That leaves 3 for NZ if they move quickly.
Thanks. So it's just Abbott trying to get some good publicity from a popular decision already made.
Trackmaster
Member
Oberon. Defence matters, not unedifying political sniping. You'll get your chance at the ballot box.
It was the announcement for the purchase. Government considers many capability proposals, but decisions to acquire major capability are always a photo opportunity for Governments of any colour / stripe.
No need to get on a soapbox about the very thing ALL governments do...
John Newman
The Bunker Group
I'd be happy to see the PM and Def Min having a 'photo op' at an RAAF, Navy or Army base every day of the week making important defence announcements, fine by me!
Let's just judge this PM and Government by their actions and decisions regarding defence, lets just wait and see what the new Defence White Paper and Defence Capability Plan delivers up, let's all hope that the plan to get defence spending up to 2% of GDP is achievable and it can deliver all of the capabilities outlined in the new DWP.
Frankly I don't think anyone here cares what you do or don't think of the PM and the Government, let's just all care that they do the right thing for Defence.
Anyway, as I said, I'll be happy to see the PM and Def Min having their next 'photo op' any day of the week announcing another important and positive defence acquisition than not at all!
John Newman
The Bunker Group
Getting confused? Probably time to take a Bex and have a good lie down! (mate, only joking, really ok??)
Have a look at the link below:
Defence Minister flags additional KC-30s, C-17s | Australian Aviation
As you can see back in August the former Def Min was 'talking up' the possibility of additional KC-30A's and C-17A's as part of the upcoming DWP.
At this stage I haven't heard any further word on the additional KC-30A's, that's probably something that will (or won't) appear in the new DWP or be announced until the new DWP is published.
As far as the C-17A's are concerned, as we all know, we just had the 'official' announcement of airframes 7 and 8 (and probably more due to the fact that the remaining 'white tails' are being snapped up and if they hadn't of acted when they did they 'potentially' could have missed out).
Obviously that still leaves the possibility of airframes 9 and 10, again, we probably won't hear if that is happening (or not) till the DWP is published.
Hope that this 'unconfused' things for you!
Cheers,
t68
Well-Known Member
Yeah the old bex and coke trick for an artificial high,
On the MRTT front their has been a lot of commentary in the media for a while now, remember Johnston alluding to the additional C17 and MRTT and the PM softening up the media for an additional MRTT to do the VIP work, guess I lost track on all the announcements and thought there was a actual order for both C17 & MRTT in the pipe line already.
I was not being political. The Press seems to have published this story as if it was something new when it was announced months ago. Certainly had me thinking it was for two new airframes ie 9 and 10.