Australian Army Discussions and Updates

FoxtrotRomeo999

Active Member
Does that mean that those ACR's will be responsible for tank warfare, armored recon and armored infantry transport? (At a later point with Land 400 vehicles?)

What about the PMV Bushmaster's? Where will they belong to? To Infantry units or some other outfit?
1. Each ACR will have three squadrons- 14xAbrams, 26xASLAVs and 86xM113 AS4.

2. PMVs go to CSS and the reserves.

A tad light on armour (I would add a tank regiment-two squadrons and a squadron of IFVs) and as yet no SPGs but good use of available resources.

Have a great day, Frank
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Hello gents,
I got some questions regarding the future ACR's.
According to this:
Australia Revamps Reserve Brigades under Plan BeerSheba | Defense Update:
each ACR should compromise of 1 Tank Squadron and 3 Armored Cav Squadrons.
I was always under the impression that Armored Cav means ASLAV?
But posts from a few days ago suggest that those ACR's will also incooperate M113's.

Does that mean that those ACR's will be responsible for tank warfare, armored recon and armored infantry transport? (At a later point with Land 400 vehicles?)

What about the PMV Bushmaster's? Where will they belong to? To Infantry units or some other outfit?
The ACR ORBAT you listed, with three cav squadrons, is a few years outdated. The original intent was to have generic cav squadrons that could do both recon and lift, but that was never going to work and was scrapped. The new ACR is as Foxtrot said, with a tank squadron, ASLAV squadron and APC squadron (with M113s). It's worth noting however, that like everything in Plan Beersheeba, the current ORBAT is only an interim ORBAT. Everything will continue to be tweaked and modified as time goes on. For instance, the army has submitted to the Whitepaper that enough Land400 recon vehicles are bought to equip two recon squadrons per ACR. The tank capability might be augmented as well.
 

Richo99

Active Member
1. Each ACR will have three squadrons- 14xAbrams, 26xASLAVs and 86xM113 AS4.

2. PMVs go to CSS and the reserves.

A tad light on armour (I would add a tank regiment-two squadrons and a squadron of IFVs) and as yet no SPGs but good use of available resources.

Have a great day, Frank
Hi Frank,

Why only 26 ASLAVs per ACR? I realise some of the 257 we have must be pretty shagged after SW Asia ops, but it does seem to be pretty light on.

Also, will any M113s be allocated to support units eg the CERs, or will they be entirely concentrated in the ACRs?

Richo99
 

FoxtrotRomeo999

Active Member
Why only 26 ASLAVs per ACR? I realise some of the 257 we have must be pretty shagged after SW Asia ops, but it does seem to be pretty light on.?
A Recce Squadron is 26 ASLAVs. (maybe another troop to bring up to 30) Another 6 for command and 3x in CSS. So in the ACR, 35-39 ASLAVs. Assume some more in other CSS units and maybe CER but wouldn't be over 50 in a Brigade, sob assume the Regulars have close to 200 (including training vehicles). I seem to recall one or more Reserve units are also getting/have ASLAVs.

I have seen articles about extending Recce to the M113 units. The M113 used to be too slow (I was told in the 1980s that enemy MBTs were faster than our Recce units).

Also, will any M113s be allocated to support units eg the CERs, or will they be entirely concentrated in the ACRs?
There are at least another ten M113s scattered through the ACR, plus one of the CER squadrons is supposed to be mechanised (not sure numbers but I assume the M113 would be used).
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Hi Frank,

Why only 26 ASLAVs per ACR? I realise some of the 257 we have must be pretty shagged after SW Asia ops, but it does seem to be pretty light on.

Also, will any M113s be allocated to support units eg the CERs, or will they be entirely concentrated in the ACRs?

Richo99
It's actually about 45 ASLAVs per ACR, once you take into account the ASLAVs in RHQ and Support Squadron. The ASLAV Squadron itself will have about 30. There will also be a light squadron in 2 Cav/2 RAR to support the amphibious capability. The total number of ASLAVs in service is less than the number in the inventory simply because that is all that can afford to be manned under Plan BEERSHEEBA. Since the ASLAV will be in service past its planned life of type, this is a good thing as the track kms can be spread over the whole fleet of vehicles.

All the M113s will be concentrated in the ACR. However, the ACR will have the capability to mechanise parts of the CER and JFTs from the arty regiment, in addition to an infantry battalion. It's for this reason that an ACR has more than 120 M113s in total.

The whole ACR will have about 170 armoured vehicles, which is a huge burden on the RAEME support, and a massive corporate governance burden on the poor OCs and CO.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
86 M113? Thats 2 Bn's in one lift. Are sure about those numbers?
IIRC the USMC fields 42 AAV's per company.
You can lift a USMC platoon in two AAVs. You need six M113s to lift an Australian platoon. That's your biggest difference right there.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
You can lift a USMC platoon in two AAVs. You need six M113s to lift an Australian platoon. That's your biggest difference right there.
Does that mean the APC section size is being increased to six or are multiple sections assigned? I suppose that also means if a vehicle with a smaller capacity than the M-113 is selected to replace it either section size or number of sections will have to increase.

As I recall an APC section was commanded by a corporal but one of our cadre sergeants told us that they used to be commanded by sergeants. If the section size is to be increased it would probably make sense to go back to having sergeants.

It's all pretty exciting and I can't wait to see how it all pans out.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Does that mean the APC section size is being increased to six or are multiple sections assigned? I suppose that also means if a vehicle with a smaller capacity than the M-113 is selected to replace it either section size or number of sections will have to increase.

As I recall an APC section was commanded by a corporal but one of our cadre sergeants told us that they used to be commanded by sergeants. If the section size is to be increased it would probably make sense to go back to having sergeants.

It's all pretty exciting and I can't wait to see how it all pans out.
An APC section is six vehicles. One for each of the rifle sections, two for the manoeuvre support section, and one for PHQ. The troop will be 20 vehicles total, with three sections and a two vehicle THQ.

The sections will be commanded by corporals. Ideally they would be commanded by sergeants, but there just aren't enough sergeants to go around. Corporals have been commanding seven vehicles sections in B Sqn 3/4 Cav for the last 6-7 years, including on ops, with no real dramas.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
An APC section is six vehicles. One for each of the rifle sections, two for the manoeuvre support section, and one for PHQ. The troop will be 20 vehicles total, with three sections and a two vehicle THQ.

The sections will be commanded by corporals. Ideally they would be commanded by sergeants, but there just aren't enough sergeants to go around. Corporals have been commanding seven vehicles sections in B Sqn 3/4 Cav for the last 6-7 years, including on ops, with no real dramas.
Thanks for that. I was thinking it was still four vehicles per section. The average RAAC corporal would have several years experience behind them so would be up to the job so that makes sense. Long term though it would be good to have sergeants again, if only to improve career opportunities.

I must admit there does seem to be an imbalance between the manning of APCs verses CAVand tanks with three and six vehicle troops commanded by lieutenants but twenty vehicles (and crews) in an APC troop. I suspect there is more involved in rec and tanks but is it so much different to explain the difference?
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks for that. I was thinking it was still four vehicles per section. The average RAAC corporal would have several years experience behind them so would be up to the job so that makes sense. Long term though it would be good to have sergeants again, if only to improve career opportunities.

I must admit there does seem to be an imbalance between the manning of APCs verses CAVand tanks with three and six vehicle troops commanded by lieutenants but twenty vehicles (and crews) in an APC troop. I suspect there is more involved in rec and tanks but is it so much different to explain the difference?
You couldn't have sergeants as section commanders - it would distort the career progression corps wide too much.

As you said, manoeuvring an APC troop is generally a lot easier than manoeuvring a tank or ASLAV troop. There are other complications involved, such as controlling the mounted manoeuvre for a combat team, and working for an infantry OC, but the actual manoeuvre in the field is easier by comparison. Even so, the ideal troop leader for an APC troop is a junior captain. Troop leaders in B Sqn 3/4 Cav have been either last year lieutenants or first year captains (and that is for a troop of 24 vehicles).

However, with three full APC squadrons in the ACR, you couldn't afford to have captain troop leaders as there just wouldn't be enough captains to go around (and what would the lieutenants do?) The plan is that new officers will cut their teeth in either the tanks or ASLAV squadron, and then move on to the APC squadron as senior lieutenants, when they already have some experience.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
You couldn't have sergeants as section commanders - it would distort the career progression corps wide too much.

As you said, manoeuvring an APC troop is generally a lot easier than manoeuvring a tank or ASLAV troop. There are other complications involved, such as controlling the mounted manoeuvre for a combat team, and working for an infantry OC, but the actual manoeuvre in the field is easier by comparison. Even so, the ideal troop leader for an APC troop is a junior captain. Troop leaders in B Sqn 3/4 Cav have been either last year lieutenants or first year captains (and that is for a troop of 24 vehicles).

However, with three full APC squadrons in the ACR, you couldn't afford to have captain troop leaders as there just wouldn't be enough captains to go around (and what would the lieutenants do?) The plan is that new officers will cut their teeth in either the tanks or ASLAV squadron, and then move on to the APC squadron as senior lieutenants, when they already have some experience.
Exciting times, especially if we end up with IFVs. Makes me wish I was in my mid teens again, trying to work out my future career, I must admit I envy you.
 

koala

Member
The blades will have a warning order for a possible deployment. Its to premature in time to fully understand the battle space around the incident...ISR not fully developed.
bet a couple of the specials are there to support the NSW police, probably waiting for the dark to assault with night vision
 

Navor86

Member
An APC section is six vehicles. One for each of the rifle sections, two for the manoeuvre support section, and one for PHQ. The troop will be 20 vehicles total, with three sections and a two vehicle THQ.
How many soldiers are in a manoeuvre support section?
 
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