Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Joe Black]

I spent a few years dealing with sig mgt/acoustic mapping on subs. The Oyashios/Soryus were regarded as being as close to as acoustically "perfect" within proscribed operating conditions - they were a golden mile ahead of anything out of europe.

if they can be built here then that's always the preferred option as its a national strategic interest and capability.

however, Defence can't continue to be held hostage to buying and building in Australia as the primary political selection driver - that's untenable

The capability of the Soryu's is being lost in this idiotic chatter bleating about "build in Aust etc..."

Its not difficult to work out the build and development model so that japan and oz wins

....

its why the general public considers ASC to be hopeless and the subs to be useless - both are so far from the truth that its not funny

Totally agree with your view, I am just adding to the fact that it is important that we can service, maintain and even upgrade the subs in-country. Even if Japan reminds friendly we cannot simply assume we will rely on them to service the boats throughout the 30 years of the lifespan.

I buy into ASC's argument that they have the know-how and skillset now to do that, and I think even to build some of the boats entirely from scratch. Thus, my suggestions that we get Japan to build some complete boats, build some in blocks and assemble them in ASC, and the rest build in ASC. Best of both world.

BTW, I read from the Australian that the problem with the AWD seems to be at the Project Management end. Perhaps ASC lacks the skillset to manage big complex projects that require coordinating different ship yards, design firms, suppliers to deal with production time problems. ASC might have the best practice in building ships when the design has all been sorted out, but, with the first-of a new class, they probably struggle to know how to arrest those issues quickly and contain the cost, and minimise schedule slippage.

Well, I guess I understand the DefMin's frustration at ASC, but I think the general public, the journalists and the politicians outside the defence ministry are unlikely to understand the problems.

 

[John Fedup]

Defense-update.com has reported that ThyseenKrupp is considering the sale of its naval business (including HDW). A possible buyer could be France's DCNS according to the report. Would this increase or decrease the Euro option if this were to happen?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Defense-update.com has reported that ThyseenKrupp is considering the sale of its naval business (including HDW). A possible buyer could be France's DCNS according to the report. Would this increase or decrease the Euro option if this were to happen?

decrease considerably IMO

 

[aussienscale]

decrease considerably IMO

It would blow it out of the water, it simply would not happen

 

[gf0012-aust]

It would blow it out of the water, it simply would not happen

I was trying to be polite

 

[the road runner]

decrease considerably IMO

Would this have to do with a plane that Australia use to fly .... and a war we fought in Vietnam with a supplier telling us we would not support this plane if we fought this war?

One thing that always gets lost when we select a platform..."Capability comes first!"
That should be the motto on the Defense Ministers door!

 

[t68]

I cames across a document today, not sure if it's ever been shown here regarding the LCH replacement

http://www.army.gov.au/~/media/Content/Our future/Publications/Papers/BoB_Part2/BoB_7.pdf


"Land Craft Heavy Replacement. There is a joint Royal Australian Navy and Army requirement for the current Landing Craft Heavy fleet to be replaced as these vessels are now inadequate and ineffective in performing their significant auxiliary role for an amphibious force in addition to their independent low-level sea lift / amphibious and littoral mobility operations. Whether this includes a similar replacement craft or a ship-pairing arrangement (such as mother-daughter ships) remains to be finalised, but Army and Navy are jointly writing a capability needs statement to outline the effect required."

Does this reflect that a small LPD could be inconsideration as well as a traditional landing craft?

Also we have a requirments for a beach recovery system which apparantly needs to be amphibious, is it suggesting that Army may in the future need a AAV-7 type vehicle plus the equipment to recory it. How does the USMC recover AAV-7 in the surf?

"Beach recovery system. In conducting operations in the littoral environment, the Australian Defence Force requires an amphibious recovery system, which can retrieve equipment such as damaged or broken down vehicles in the surf and beach zones. This capability includes a heavy vehicle or craft with specialised equipment."

 

[gf0012-aust]

Would this have to do with a plane that Australia use to fly .... and a war we fought in Vietnam with a supplier telling us we would not support this plane if we fought this war?

No, more about some suppliers not wanting to work with French companies due to IP issues and their own bad experiences in partnering with French owned companies in the past

Not just the US either.

 

[t68]

No, more about some suppliers not wanting to work with French companies due to IP issues and their own bad experiences in partnering with French owned companies in the past

Not just the US either.

Yet we let Thales buy ADI or no one else was interested?

 

[rand0m]

Does this reflect that a small LPD could be inconsideration as well as a traditional landing craft?

Makassar are quite cheapish, probably far too big for our requirements. The only other small LPD I can think of is the Endurance class.

Again crew numbers would be well above the current.

 

[MickB]

Makassar are quite cheapish, probably far too big for our requirements. The only other small LPD I can think of is the Endurance class.

Again crew numbers would be well above the current.

More likely an LST like the Damen LST 100 mentioned above.

But a Makasser deal similar to Indonesia's, 1 or 2 built in SK the rest built in Aust would help local shipbuilding.

 

[rjtjrt]

What happened to the transformers removed from HMAS Choules?
Were they trashed/destroyed, or kept as spares?

 

[Volkodav]

Looking outside the square what would be interesting is a hybrid LPD / FFG, or new generation APD, able to ship a single USN type LSU (these have a similar lift to a RAN LCH), or a couple of LCM1Es. A 5" gun, VLS(with ESSM / RAM / Nulka), SAAB 9LV, CEAFAR, large hanger for MH-60R, Firescout, MHR-90 etc. flight deck large enough to spot a pair of Chinooks and space and weight for additional vls for SM-2, SM-6, Tomahawk, Strike missiles, rockets etc. 24-27kt, 9000Nm @18kt able to self escort and escort LHDs, land and support a hardened company group, including tanks, APC/AIFVs, or even a Sqn ( battalion lift) of AAVs, or several CB90 type assault boats.

Like I said, outside the square, but it would make for a very interesting and flexible force multiplier.

 

[StevoJH]

This is going to sound silly, but i'm going to ask anyway.

How much would something along the lines of Tobruk with modern equipment, engines etc cost?

Would need a hanger for its Helicopter Platform as well.

How small a crew could you get away with during normal operations?

 

[ngatimozart]

Looking outside the square what would be interesting is a hybrid LPD / FFG, or new generation APD, able to ship a single USN type LSU (these have a similar lift to a RAN LCH), or a couple of LCM1Es. A 5" gun, VLS(with ESSM / RAM / Nulka), SAAB 9LV, CEAFAR, large hanger for MH-60R, Firescout, MHR-90 etc. flight deck large enough to spot a pair of Chinooks and space and weight for additional vls for SM-2, SM-6, Tomahawk, Strike missiles, rockets etc. 24-27kt, 9000Nm @18kt able to self escort and escort LHDs, land and support a hardened company group, including tanks, APC/AIFVs, or even a Sqn ( battalion lift) of AAVs, or several CB90 type assault boats.

Like I said, outside the square, but it would make for a very interesting and flexible force multiplier.

So you might be looking at something like an Absalon with a well dock instead of the current ramp and vehicle bay they have at moment. The current Absalon doesn't have the space for the four MTU diesels of the Iver Huitfelds but if you go along with the concept and redesigned the aft section of the hull then that's somewhere to start. The current hangar on the Absalons is designed for two helos so if the concept vessel has a redesigned aft section am sure the flight deck could be lengthened to lillypad two chooks. Would make for a long flight deck though and possibly mean it over hanging the stern somewhat.

 

[Volkodav]

This is going to sound silly, but i'm going to ask anyway.

How much would something along the lines of Tobruk with modern equipment, engines etc cost?

Would need a hanger for its Helicopter Platform as well.

How small a crew could you get away with during normal operations?

That's roughly what the US Army's Besson class LSV is, or more the longer sub class with a bow cap. They are designed to lift a company (Squadron for the RAAC) of Abrams tanks and helicopter equipped versions have been supplied to the Philippines.

 

[Volkodav]

So you might be looking at something like an Absalon with a well dock instead of the current ramp and vehicle bay they have at moment. The current Absalon doesn't have the space for the four MTU diesels of the Iver Huitfelds but if you go along with the concept and redesigned the aft section of the hull then that's somewhere to start. The current hangar on the Absalons is designed for two helos so if the concept vessel has a redesigned aft section am sure the flight deck could be lengthened to lillypad two chooks. Would make for a long flight deck though and possibly mean it over hanging the stern somewhat.

That is sort of what I was thinking but also Singapore's Endurance class and the USNs San Antonio class, with a bit of Germanys F125 thrown in for good measure. A modern day colonial cruiser with the flexibility added by a preloaded LCU or even a small vehicle deck to add flexibility to the LCU.

 

[hauritz]

It does sound like they are shifting away from the original specification of like for like, replacement of the LCH ... or at the very least they are considering other possibilities. There is an obvious capability gap between the 16,000 ton Choules and the now retired 400 ton Balikpapan-class.

 

[t68]

This is going to sound silly, but i'm going to ask anyway.

How much would something along the lines of Tobruk with modern equipment, engines etc cost?

Would need a hanger for its Helicopter Platform as well.

How small a crew could you get away with during normal operations?

I was actually thinking of a mix of Tobruk and Russian Ivan Rogov-class landing ship, not sure if it defeats the purpose of having a well dock and the ability to beach itself to off load.

Volkodav idea sounds interesting along with ngatimozart sounds like the Absalon are getting a work over in ideas, how much has the government allocated to the LCH replacement project?

Multi-role Destroyer - Canadian Surface Combatant - Danish Absalon - Area Air Defence Destroyer - CASR Modest Proposal - Canadian American Strategic Review - Royal Canadian Navy - RCN Fleet - Destroyer Replacement - Absalon Class - Support Ship - Spe

 

[StevoJH]

I was actually thinking of a mix of Tobruk and Russian Ivan Rogov-class landing ship, not sure if it defeats the purpose of having a well dock and the ability to beach itself to off load.

Way too big, and too complicated. If you are considering something along the lines of the Ivan Rogov you may as well just order new build Bay Class LSD's.