Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hmm. I think maybe a class of 7 with 6 OPVs plus the LWSV. This is a numbers game and you really need a minimum of 2 fully operational so that you can have potentially one to the south and one to the north on NZ at any given time. At the moment with Manawanui and the IPVs we have 6 + 1. Anything less and we will be unable to monitor the EEZ plus our Island obligations. We barely can do that now.
We can barely do it now because we cannot get the specialist to join up and stay. Let alone finding more of such a rare commodity. They will not appear out of thin air.

Even with inducements it is difficult to retain personnel. Rents in Auckland let alone buying a house is prohibitive thus modern lifestyle, other lucrative opportunities beckon. There are plently who think they can do the job but not many that the Navy want and know that they can do it, in the branches that are critical to fleet operations. We would never be able to crew 2 frigates, an amphibious support ship, a tanker, a Aegir 18R type vessel, a LWSV and six OPVs. Four OPVs will be doable, five a stretch. The Sixth would be $150m of taxpayers money tied alonside. We do not have the numbers and are likely not able to have the numbers. This is not the 1980s when there were only a narrow band of career / lifestyle choices. A viable professional Navy of 3000 is long gone. Not the population base and the job market for those who have the skills for the critical jobs is not there for the Navy. The two other service arms are also competing for them, as are the police and other uniformed services. Let alone the private sector.

The other point that needs to resonate is that the clients - other government departments - as the RNZN is a service provider when it comes to patrols - want to use other forms of technology of achieving their targets. For example maritime survelliance from a B350ER type MPS platform working with a larger OPV is more effective than a couple of smallsh roaming IPVs. The aircraft can expand 12 times the ships ISR coverage cheaply and more efficently. It is just like the analogy I use for BAMS. The Triton is the finder and the P-8 is the keeper. Translate that modus operandi down to bread and butter fisheries protection and customs boardiimgs. The ISR aviation asset hovers up the data, detects its target, contacts, monitors and vectors in the OPV asset to board, check and arrest.

With 5 vessels working with an airbourne ISR platform you will achieve a far more effective maritime picture. The numbers game of old is not adding uip the way it used to. Maritime ISR is developing new calculations. You would still get a constant two ships out from 4 or 5. They would be out there far longer than 5-7 days, and achieve more for their "clients". They would be working closely with the RNZAF. The techy whizz kid who thought maybe the Navy was not his thing may likely be at console of the rear cabin of a RNZAF B350 type ISR aircraft. The numbers game is the people and not the ships. You can build the ships but not the people who the Navy wants. Because of that limitation IPVs will go and we will have fewer but more capable ships.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
The other point that needs to resonate is that the clients - other government departments - as the RNZN is a service provider when it comes to patrols - want to use other forms of technology of achieving their targets. For example maritime survelliance from a B350ER type MPS platform working with a larger OPV is more effective than a couple of smallsh roaming IPVs. The aircraft can expand 12 times the ships ISR coverage cheaply and more efficently. It is just like the analogy I use for BAMS. The Triton is the finder and the P-8 is the keeper. Translate that modus operandi down to bread and butter fisheries protection and customs boardiimgs. The ISR aviation asset hovers up the data, detects its target, contacts, monitors and vectors in the OPV asset to board, check and arrest.

With 5 vessels working with an airbourne ISR platform you will achieve a far more effective maritime picture. The numbers game of old is not adding uip the way it used to. Maritime ISR is developing new calculations. You would still get a constant two ships out from 4 or 5. They would be out there far longer than 5-7 days, and achieve more for their "clients". They would be working closely with the RNZAF. The techy whizz kid who thought maybe the Navy was not his thing may likely be at console of the rear cabin of a RNZAF B350 type ISR aircraft. The numbers game is the people and not the ships. You can build the ships but not the people who the Navy wants. Because of that limitation IPVs will go and we will have fewer but more capable ships.
But on the other hand wouldn't an OPV cost a lot more to run, operate and maintain then a IPV for the type of stop start work they do such as running in and out of bays, checking boating/shipping, harbour work etc even with the RHIBs? This would surely put the spotlight on hours/days, kind of like the NH90 is to the UH1H of old. Something will inevitably have to give bar an increase in funding (ironically what they are trying to reign in) and taskings may need to be moved around to cover.

An ISR aircraft could just do the same with IPVs now and vector so no savings there plus the navy may want to stay out on longer patrols but would civis? (land lubbers and all). I'm talking only inshore work here as well (IPVs feed), offshore would not be an issue and benefit from aircraft ops as per.

Again I think this is yet another cost cutting excersize and is the lesser of two evils, not best soloution, and could well end up 'costing' us more in the long run in other ways. I just think short manning now is not a viable excuse to cut future options as once gone will be very expensive to bring back (ala ACF) if needed therefore a lot more thought needs to be put in and options fully explored before we commit.

As long as there is unemployment in NZ then there is no reason for govt not to future proof and start promoting and pushing people towards these (even related) spec trade paths to enlargen the employment pool in certain deficient areas. Make it attractive, use incentives and subsidies to lure prospective people to help not only defence but NZ as a whole.

Agree with you on the numbers, we will not see a flotilla of OPVs but more what we currently have or a version of, the mooted 3rd OPV will come at the expense of the 2 IPVs not on top of, and possibly another later on (again for the remaining 2 IPVs). That could potentially mean a patrol force of 3 OPVs, 2 IPVs short/medium term and maybe 4 OPVs long if it works out. If they also base LWSV on the same class then could be build benefits, my votes still BAMs, may as well go balls out while we have the oppourtunity and seize the dream.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
We can barely do it now because we cannot get the specialist to join up and stay. Let alone finding more of such a rare commodity. They will not appear out of thin air.

Even with inducements it is difficult to retain personnel. Rents in Auckland let alone buying a house is prohibitive thus modern lifestyle, other lucrative opportunities beckon. There are plently who think they can do the job but not many that the Navy want and know that they can do it, in the branches that are critical to fleet operations. We would never be able to crew 2 frigates, an amphibious support ship, a tanker, a Aegir 18R type vessel, a LWSV and six OPVs. Four OPVs will be doable, five a stretch. The Sixth would be $150m of taxpayers money tied alonside. We do not have the numbers and are likely not able to have the numbers. This is not the 1980s when there were only a narrow band of career / lifestyle choices. A viable professional Navy of 3000 is long gone. Not the population base and the job market for those who have the skills for the critical jobs is not there for the Navy. The two other service arms are also competing for them, as are the police and other uniformed services. Let alone the private sector.
I don't fully agree. The retention issue revolves around morale or more precisely the lack of it within the services because of pay, conditions and insecurity for long term prospects. True there was a pay rise but it for those living on board it was clawed back in increase in RQC (Rations & Quarters Charge) and for those living ashore (off base), especially in Auckland & Christchurch, it went nowhere to meeting accommodation and living costs that had risen substantially since the previous pay increment. The NZG and NZDF have to realise and fully understand that in order to retain these people they are going to have to pay them accordingly and provide things such as accommodation i.e., married quarters, at reasonable rates for service personnel and their partners / families, and not at market rates but well below. They also have to realise and fully understand that in most service families, especially families of juniors rates and junior officers, both partners are having to work hence, if the second partner is non service they then need to be in a locale where they are able to obtain employment in their field. I fully understand the cost significance of this, but it does work out to be what is best for the service in the long term IF they take a long term view. A service is only as good as the people within it and if you do not support those people you lose out, always. I know this because I was in (twice) and it is what I hear today and keep hearing.
The other point that needs to resonate is that the clients - other government departments - as the RNZN is a service provider when it comes to patrols - want to use other forms of technology of achieving their targets. For example maritime survelliance from a B350ER type MPS platform working with a larger OPV is more effective than a couple of smallsh roaming IPVs. The aircraft can expand 12 times the ships ISR coverage cheaply and more efficently. It is just like the analogy I use for BAMS. The Triton is the finder and the P-8 is the keeper. Translate that modus operandi down to bread and butter fisheries protection and customs boardiimgs. The ISR aviation asset hovers up the data, detects its target, contacts, monitors and vectors in the OPV asset to board, check and arrest.

With 5 vessels working with an airbourne ISR platform you will achieve a far more effective maritime picture. The numbers game of old is not adding uip the way it used to. Maritime ISR is developing new calculations. You would still get a constant two ships out from 4 or 5. They would be out there far longer than 5-7 days, and achieve more for their "clients". They would be working closely with the RNZAF. The techy whizz kid who thought maybe the Navy was not his thing may likely be at console of the rear cabin of a RNZAF B350 type ISR aircraft. The numbers game is the people and not the ships. You can build the ships but not the people who the Navy wants. Because of that limitation IPVs will go and we will have fewer but more capable ships.
I totally agree about the airborne ISR especially for maritime use. It is actually a no brainer. However I am looking at vessel availability per se around maintenance, availabilities etc. So if we had six OPVs we actually only need full crews for four in that you can march a crew down the jetty from one OPV to the other and they can take over that ship - all they do is change cap tallies. The RNZN currently do that with the IPVs. That way you will always have two fully operational and two that can be surged if needed, who would otherwise be doing light maintenance and / or training etc. The fifth and sixth are in deep maintenance / refit. We didn't do that with the Seasprites and that is why we had the issues with them. Low numbers of aircraft hence not enough to cover taskings and undergo the standard maintenance training cycle as should've happened so maintenance issues exacerbated and costs skyrocketed. We were very lucky with the ex RAN ones. Imagine if we had to buy nine Wildcats or Romeos instead.
 

ngatimozart

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Verified Defense Pro
But on the other hand wouldn't an OPV cost a lot more to run, operate and maintain then a IPV for the type of stop start work they do such as running in and out of bays, checking boating/shipping, harbour work etc even with the RHIBs? This would surely put the spotlight on hours/days, kind of like the NH90 is to the UH1H of old. Something will inevitably have to give bar an increase in funding (ironically what they are trying to reign in) and taskings may need to be moved around to cover.

An ISR aircraft could just do the same with IPVs now and vector so no savings there plus the navy may want to stay out on longer patrols but would civis? (land lubbers and all). I'm talking only inshore work here as well (IPVs feed), offshore would not be an issue and benefit from aircraft ops as per.

Again I think this is yet another cost cutting excersize and is the lesser of two evils, not best soloution, and could well end up 'costing' us more in the long run in other ways. I just think short manning now is not a viable excuse to cut future options as once gone will be very expensive to bring back (ala ACF) if needed therefore a lot more thought needs to be put in and options fully explored before we commit.
That ACF axing still rankles :wah:hitwall:mad3:hitwall
As long as there is unemployment in NZ then there is no reason for govt not to future proof and start promoting and pushing people towards these (even related) spec trade paths to enlargen the employment pool in certain deficient areas. Make it attractive, use incentives and subsidies to lure prospective people to help not only defence but NZ as a whole.

Agree with you on the numbers, we will not see a flotilla of OPVs but more what we currently have or a version of, the mooted 3rd OPV will come at the expense of the 2 IPVs not on top of, and possibly another later on (again for the remaining 2 IPVs). That could potentially mean a patrol force of 3 OPVs, 2 IPVs short/medium term and maybe 4 OPVs long if it works out. If they also base LWSV on the same class then could be build benefits, my votes still BAMs, may as well go balls out while we have the oppourtunity and seize the dream.
Well as Mr C suggested in an earlier post either a modified (Ice 1C) BAMs or BMT Venator. The only concern I would have is how much free-board would be left after the ice modifications were made so maybe the main deck would have to be higher to allow for this. However both look good. If we are going with the LWSC being the same class hull then probably the Venator may be a better fit because of it being 500 tonne larger and more room to work with.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Well as Mr C suggested in an earlier post either a modified (Ice 1C) BAMs or BMT Venator. The only concern I would have is how much free-board would be left after the ice modifications were made so maybe the main deck would have to be higher to allow for this. However both look good. If we are going with the LWSC being the same class hull then probably the Venator may be a better fit because of it being 500 tonne larger and more room to work with.
To clarify - those type of vessels not them specifically per se. I could have easily added a Damen 2400 to that short list or a scaled smaller Absalon derivative. Specifications drawn up to meet our conops and build a class of 5 starting with the LWSV and flowing through to replace the IPVs then current OPVs.

Morale, pay, housing and all that are an issue but if we still look 5-10 years out and solved such issues for retention, the big issue will also be the reluctance of the Millennials and the next generation coming through next decade to chose the service life. Sociographics are in play with respect to the Navy and the other services and have to be accounted for in any such policy analysis.

RegR I understand what you are saying about close inshore / harbour work, Those roles can be undertaken by far smaller vessels such as the small QWest vessels used by a number of government departments with a maritime role and cost a tenth of the price of an IPV. Trial one with a VR divisions to do those inshore / harbours roles andsee if it works. Wouldnt hurt would it.

Cheers MrC
 

htbrst

Active Member

kiwi in exile

Active Member
Obviously there is an election on at the moment, so here are some pretty wishy washy articles on some 'controversial' defence matters - drones and foreign subs in NZ waters

Subs 'sneaking in' - National - NZ Herald News

Drones set to guard coast - Defence - NZ Herald News

And its not just the new "stealthy" submarines that need to be looked out for...: "a navy source said a foreign naval ship recently entered New Zealand waters disguised as a trawler."
I think, given his credentials any opinions offered or statements made by paul Buchanan has to be taken seriously. And anything that suggests that we need more maritime patrol/ASW capability can only be a good thing right.

Plus wasn't there a recent announcement that the orions ASW sensors were to be upgraded. Maybe those in the know are allready aware of the above claims and are taking them seriosly enough to do something about it.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I think, given his credentials any opinions offered or statements made by paul Buchanan has to be taken seriously. And anything that suggests that we need more maritime patrol/ASW capability can only be a good thing right.

Plus wasn't there a recent announcement that the orions ASW sensors were to be upgraded. Maybe those in the know are allready aware of the above claims and are taking them seriosly enough to do something about it.
The sensors announcement was made a while back. The Ministers statement in the drone story that "it was wrong to suggest the navy was under-invested and understaffed" is incorrect considering that from 1990 to 1994 the NZ defence budget was "slashed by 23 percent ... As a result of the fiscal constraints, RNZN capabilities substantially deteriorated during the early and mid-1990s and the lack of acquisitions led to it operating an increasingly obsolescent fleet." * NZDF has never recovered that lost funding because no government since then has restored that funding loss. To put into todays context it roughly works out to approximately NZ$1 billion of funding per year, plus the extra kit that NZDF has lost in the intervening 24 years. Therefore the Minister is totally incorrect in his statement. Secondly Goff was the second worse defence minister we ever had.

* Jackson, Aaron P: 2010, Keystone Doctrine Development in Five Commonwealth Navies: A Comparative Perspective, Papers in Australian Maritime Affairs, No. 33. Royal Australian Navy, Canberra, p56. TO put the quote in context, the full quote is:
Between 1990 and 1994, when New Zealand’s strategic policy had recently generated a need for the RNZN to shift its training focus away from its military role and towards a more balanced mix of the roles identified by Ken Booth, the New Zealand defence budget was slashed by 23 per cent.9 Between 1991 and 1996, the only new acquisition authorised was a much-needed sealift ship, HMNZS Charles Upham. Even this purchase was not without controversy, and the ship was described by one commentator as ‘a passable imitation between a lemon and a white elephant [sic]’.10 As a result of the fiscal constraints, RNZN capabilities substantially deteriorated during the early and mid-1990s and the lack of acquisitions led to it operating an increasingly obsolescent fleet.
This work is worth a really good read because it looks at how the five Commonwealth Navies (standfast RN) came about acquiring their doctrines. It also gives a good definition of what a naval doctrine is. It is a pdf file of 92 pages and the link takes you straight to the download.
 
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kiwi in exile

Active Member
Australia is planning on purchasing Japanese Soryu AIP subs, rather than building local indegenous Collins replacements. There is a lot of political back and forth about the impact on the local shipbuilding industry. As a response the govt is talking of bringing forward work on the ANZAC replacements and basing the hulls on the AWD hull design creating 6250 tonne "super frigates." This is per reports in The Age this morining. Would link but its paywalled. This may have impacts on possible paths for NZs ANZAC replacements. Interesting to see if this goes ahead.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Australia is planning on purchasing Japanese Soryu AIP subs, rather than building local indegenous Collins replacements. There is a lot of political back and forth about the impact on the local shipbuilding industry. As a response the govt is talking of bringing forward work on the ANZAC replacements and basing the hulls on the AWD hull design creating 6250 tonne "super frigates." This is per reports in The Age this morining. Would link but its paywalled. This may have impacts on possible paths for NZs ANZAC replacements. Interesting to see if this goes ahead.
The MOTS Soryu purchase is not a given and media writing what they think is happening. It could be far from the truth, it could be within cooee of it, although I have my doubts about the latter.

With regard to the F105 hull for the ANZAC replacement that is very much on the cards and would be a very logical and wise move for the RAN and the Australian shipbuilding industry. It's relatively low risk and most of the pieces and components are in place. If NZ is interested in this project would be dependent upon cost first of all. There would be advantages of course, but knowing our pollies and the level of their collective intellect, they'd stuff it up any way. It would make a really good specialised as well as GP frigate with room for mission bays and a two helo hangar. IMHO it could potentially offer more than the T26 and I quite like the way the T26 is shaping up.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Obviously there is an election on at the moment, so here are some pretty wishy washy articles on some 'controversial' defence matters - drones and foreign subs in NZ waters

Subs 'sneaking in' - National - NZ Herald News

And its not just the new "stealthy" submarines that need to be looked out for...: "a navy source said a foreign naval ship recently entered New Zealand waters disguised as a trawler."
Been thinking about this and the more I think about it the more I believe that it is Russian SSNs revisiting our waters again and probably frequently. Soviet subs were frequent visitors here in the 1980s so since the Russians announced last year that they from 2014 they will be extending their SSBN patrols to southern waters then it would make sense that they a falling back on old habits again. Also it is believed that the Tasman sea was the route for Soviet subs transiting from the Pacific into the Indian Ocean and vice versa because the South East Asian route wasn't a militarily or politically acceptable risk. I think that also subs from the Atlantic might have used this route. With regard to the FFV operated by a navy I suspect that may've been Russian as well gathering intelligence. Just my thoughts.
 
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MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I am sad to report that former Chief of Naval Staff (94-97) RADM Jack Welch crossed the bar earlier today. Jack Welch was a firm and tireless advocate for a Frigate centred Navy. He was an outspoken critic of prior governments not buying the 4 Anzacs ordered. RIP
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I am sad to report that former Chief of Naval Staff (94-97) RADM Jack Welch crossed the bar earlier today. Jack Welch was a firm and tireless advocate for a Frigate centred Navy. He was an outspoken critic of prior governments not buying the 4 Anzacs ordered. RIP
RIP Sir. Very much liked by the sailors.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Feel free to slap me down if I have the wrong end of the stick but to me the issues for the RNZN (apart from political incompetence and lack of funding) is a shortage of skilled personnel, retention of the skilled personnel they do have and the operating costs of the current fleet. The upfront cost of platforms and capabilities is actually a much smaller (apart from the political angle) part of the problem than these other factors.

Now, as I see it, an OPV is a much more capable platform than an IPV while not being much more expensive to own and operate. Its crew is about the same size (IPV 36, OPV 35 + 10 aviation), its fuel usage would not be much more for the distances covered and its maintenance costs would not be much higher. Accordingly for slightly greater operating costs the OPVs are far more capable and therefore better value for money, as they are larger, more comfortable and more interesting to serve on they likely would also lead to better morale in their crews and better retention. There greater size also facilitates embarking more trainees, which would improve the skilling issue and also provide extra hands for taskings, reducing the workload and monotony for the trained technical sailors also improving morale and retention. Also when tasked on missions that do not require an aviation element the OPV actually has a smaller crew that the IPV, actually making it cheaper still.

The only down side is greater upfront acquisition costs but they should not be that different in the situation of comparing an OPV to and IPV as steel is cheap and air is free, but also an OPV would be expected to be more durable and have a longer life than an IPV so therefore again better value for money. Also a larger class of OPVs, with no IPVs would enable maintenance to be better optimised while still meeting all scheduled taskings. Logistics and training would be simplified and an order for 4, 5 or 6 pretty much identical OPVs (plus the potentially similar littoral vessel) would also decrease unit cost and may even make local construction a possibility (if combined with a frigate build).

The next issue is the frigates, NZ has only two but really needs three or more simply for sustainment reasons. An increased OPV fleet would take some of the load off through being able to conduct some tasks that would otherwise require a frigate how ever an OPV is not a frigate and there are tasks that an OPV should not be used for unless its systems are beefed up to the point it costs almost as much as a frigate but is still less capable and survivable.

Lets assume NZ decides to baseline the next generation frigate on the capabilities of the upgraded ANZAC. Such a ship, using the latest technologies, would have a crew less than half the size of the ANZACs, even a third or quarter, if modern corvette designs are considered. Also, as many auxiliary systems as possible could be shared with the OPVs, in fact even elements of the combat system could be shared. These factors will dramatically reduce the cost of ownership verses an ANZAC. Again, steel is cheap and air is free so a larger hull could be specified, with plenty of growth reserve but also with the reduction in crew size and operating costs verses an ANZAC more hulls could be afforded and if these ships are ordered in a batch from an established yard costs could be reduced enough to justify additional units.

Now here comes the stretch, some would say the pure fantasy, depending how many frigates, OPVs and Littoral Operations Support Ships are required, within a ceiling of total available crew and overall fleet operating costs, a local build of these ships could be justified, affordable and sustainable. Starting with the currently projected third OPV and a potentially common hulled littoral support ship as new design could be selected for local build.

Completed at two year intervals, from 2020, five new OPVs, with modular systems, are built with one outfitted for the littoral support role to replace the IPVs, Resolution and Manawanui. for a total of six OPVs and one support vessel. In 2030 the first of five new frigates is delivered from the same yard as the OPVs, commissioning at two year intervals through to 2038 and then the first two of seven new OPVs to replace the by then ancient Protector Class OPVs from 2040, then the newer OPVs and littoral ship following, again at two year intervals. Thus a continuous build of seven OPVs and five frigates is established with a new ship commissioning every two years and an old ship being replaced after twenty four years service.

Fantasy land I know but with the right amount of political will it could be done.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Now here comes the stretch, some would say the pure fantasy, depending how many frigates, OPVs and Littoral Operations Support Ships are required, within a ceiling of total available crew and overall fleet operating costs, a local build of these ships could be justified, affordable and sustainable. Starting with the currently projected third OPV and a potentially common hulled littoral support ship as new design could be selected for local build.

Completed at two year intervals, from 2020, five new OPVs, with modular systems, are built with one outfitted for the littoral support role to replace the IPVs, Resolution and Manawanui. for a total of six OPVs and one support vessel. In 2030 the first of five new frigates is delivered from the same yard as the OPVs, commissioning at two year intervals through to 2038 and then the first two of seven new OPVs to replace the by then ancient Protector Class OPVs from 2040, then the newer OPVs and littoral ship following, again at two year intervals. Thus a continuous build of seven OPVs and five frigates is established with a new ship commissioning every two years and an old ship being replaced after twenty four years service.

Fantasy land I know but with the right amount of political will it could be done.
Sounds like a good plan to me I like you’re thinking, but a little ambitious maybe (mine too). Does NZ have the capacity to build a type 26 even if they had continuous build principles?
Agree with the OPV sentiment as New Zealand's international obligations lead to a requirement for patrols in the Southern Ocean and South Pacific region that’s a lot to cover. As for the best case would be 4x high-end frigates and 3x multi-role frigates (Absalon-class) for a total of seven this gives the ability for NZ to contribute to coalition events working with the RAN and the US Seventh fleet and still have the capacity to concurrently deal with events close to home if needed , future needs of the support force are either an enlarged RSS Endurance or Endurance 160, and the OPV force needs to be able to sustain a helicopter in its hanger for NH-90

This is the fundamental requirements of the Navy
• Naval Combat Force (Type 26, Absalon)
• Naval Support Force (Canterbury, Absalon ,Berlin/ Cantabriax2 )
• Naval Patrol Force ( Damen 2600)
• Mine Countermeasures and Diving Support Force (Absalon, Damen 2600)
• Hydrographic Service (Damen 2600)


From others on this forum it appears the greatest problem for the NZDF is not one of having the available people but being able to attract and retain the right people having the right conditions of service over the long term is what is needed to retain a dedicated workforce . Take the Navy pers I am lead to believe that Navy personal have to pay market rents to live near Devonport Naval Base, I would imagine that they would get some type of allowance. Compare what is expected of defence personal and compare that to civilians for the same work hours some are expected here in Australia they pay rates would kill the defence budget alone if they had to pay penalties rates and such Defence doesn’t pay those, sure you get subsidies’ meals and health care but these would still not be the equivalent to market rates, it conditions of service which have to be addressed not only in NZ but here in Aus as well.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Feel free to slap me down if I have the wrong end of the stick but to me the issues for the RNZN (apart from political incompetence and lack of funding) is a shortage of skilled personnel, retention of the skilled personnel they do have and the operating costs of the current fleet. The upfront cost of platforms and capabilities is actually a much smaller (apart from the political angle) part of the problem than these other factors.

Now, as I see it, an OPV is a much more capable platform than an IPV while not being much more expensive to own and operate. Its crew is about the same size (IPV 36, OPV 35 + 10 aviation), its fuel usage would not be much more for the distances covered and its maintenance costs would not be much higher. Accordingly for slightly greater operating costs the OPVs are far more capable and therefore better value for money, as they are larger, more comfortable and more interesting to serve on they likely would also lead to better morale in their crews and better retention. There greater size also facilitates embarking more trainees, which would improve the skilling issue and also provide extra hands for taskings, reducing the workload and monotony for the trained technical sailors also improving morale and retention. Also when tasked on missions that do not require an aviation element the OPV actually has a smaller crew that the IPV, actually making it cheaper still.

The only down side is greater upfront acquisition costs but they should not be that different in the situation of comparing an OPV to and IPV as steel is cheap and air is free, but also an OPV would be expected to be more durable and have a longer life than an IPV so therefore again better value for money. Also a larger class of OPVs, with no IPVs would enable maintenance to be better optimised while still meeting all scheduled taskings. Logistics and training would be simplified and an order for 4, 5 or 6 pretty much identical OPVs (plus the potentially similar littoral vessel) would also decrease unit cost and may even make local construction a possibility (if combined with a frigate build).

The next issue is the frigates, NZ has only two but really needs three or more simply for sustainment reasons. An increased OPV fleet would take some of the load off through being able to conduct some tasks that would otherwise require a frigate how ever an OPV is not a frigate and there are tasks that an OPV should not be used for unless its systems are beefed up to the point it costs almost as much as a frigate but is still less capable and survivable.
.
Whilst I agree an OPV is far more capable than a IPV and maybe in our current climate (financial, manning issues) possibly a better path to take (for now) I think they have specific roles to cover for a reason but as per we try to make them do a lot more on a shoestring budget. If we kept thinking like this we would eventually get back up to an all frigate fleet ie OPV can do more than IPV but then again corvette can do more than OPV oh hang on frigate can do more than corvette, probably work out cheaper.....

The reason we got the OPVs was to fill a deficiency in EEZ/regional maritime patrol without wastage or overkill in capability and to free up the frigates more for their core role and assumedly the reason we got IPVs was to free up OPVs for their core role and take care of the local stuff, a tiered system for patrol requirements, similar to what RNZAF maritime patrol is wanting (and needing).

Now while it would be great to have an all OPV or even all frigate fleet for this role(s) it DOES come at a price be it manpower, operating cost or initial purchase price, it's just plain logistics. Not sure where you got your specs from but an IPV has a base complement of 20 vs 35 for OPV so not quite as close as you make out and saying OPVs operating costs are not much more then an IPV is abit like saying the MRVs operating costs are not much more then OPV. Bigger generally costs more to run, crew and maintain and that goes for anything.

The differing classes had/have their differing roles/tasks and niche areas and the question is can all roles/tasks be cost effectively amalgamated into the higher class for 'savings'? Seems like an easy answer on paper but I still have some reservations.

Again lets be realistic with the 'fleet' size and composition, even the big navies (Aus, UK, US etc) are downsizing and consolidating platforms therefore why would we be any different (if not worse even). Maybe 1 extra OPV possibly 1 frigate but pretty much doubling our current fleet is a bit of a stretch, if the main problem is manning more ships is not exactly a problem solver (or even viable) just yet as they will just park alongside the others at Devonport.
 

ngatimozart

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We used to have a shipbuilding industry at Whangarei. They built the Moa Class IPCs there, plus Manawanui and the two Inshore Survey Craft all based on the Moa Class IPC hull back in the 1980s. Like everything else it went offshore because of costs and unsustainability. We have a world class yacht and super yacht building industry here. Like V says steel is cheap and air is free and there is that steel mill at Glenbrook. If the infrastructure could be set up it would be cheaper to build here than in Aus. Hmm, might flick this on to a couple of people I know.
 

ngatimozart

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My own view is that NZDF funding should be back at 2%GDP like it was until the 1991 budget and it was affordable then and it is affordable now.
Feel free to slap me down if I have the wrong end of the stick but to me the issues for the RNZN (apart from political incompetence and lack of funding) is a shortage of skilled personnel, retention of the skilled personnel they do have and the operating costs of the current fleet. The upfront cost of platforms and capabilities is actually a much smaller (apart from the political angle) part of the problem than these other factors.
IMV the personnel shortage has been created by the political shenanigans of civilianisation, the politicisation of defence by Labour and the starvation of funding since 1991 by both National and Labour. In particular it has hit the RNZN hard because the young technicians become qualified in a trade and then get lured out by better pay and conditions in the civilian sector. The RNZAF has a similar problem too but it doesn't have the same impact upon the RNZAF as a whole. Then to top things off they take away the advantage of service housing in Auckland by charging service personnel market rates for service married quarters and it's like living in Sydney, bloody expensive.
Now, as I see it, an OPV is a much more capable platform than an IPV while not being much more expensive to own and operate. Its crew is about the same size (IPV 36, OPV 35 + 10 aviation), its fuel usage would not be much more for the distances covered and its maintenance costs would not be much higher. Accordingly for slightly greater operating costs the OPVs are far more capable and therefore better value for money, as they are larger, more comfortable and more interesting to serve on they likely would also lead to better morale in their crews and better retention. There greater size also facilitates embarking more trainees, which would improve the skilling issue and also provide extra hands for taskings, reducing the workload and monotony for the trained technical sailors also improving morale and retention. Also when tasked on missions that do not require an aviation element the OPV actually has a smaller crew that the IPV, actually making it cheaper still.
The OPV core crew is 35 and the IPV is 20 RNZN - Meet The Fleet. The RNZN hierarchy need to build a bridge about their attitude towards the RNZNVR and get over it. Such snobbery is unbecoming in a service which has to utilise every resource and is actually detrimental to the Navy. CN Jack Steer needs to lead by example and jump on it. My position here is biased because I was a Reservist and proud of it. We wore that uniform with the same pride as the Regulars and we worked bloody hard for it too. I'd like to see the IPVs go the Reserve Divisions as training ships. They take a crew of 20 which is only 2 more than the old Moa Class IPCs and I know that the Wellington, Christchurch and Dunedin Divisions could crew their ships reasonably well and often. The RNZNVR having those ships would get the Reserves back into more regular and frequent sea time and keep them current so that they can be greater assets to the sea going side of the RNZN.
The only down side is greater upfront acquisition costs but they should not be that different in the situation of comparing an OPV to and IPV as steel is cheap and air is free, but also an OPV would be expected to be more durable and have a longer life than an IPV so therefore again better value for money. Also a larger class of OPVs, with no IPVs would enable maintenance to be better optimised while still meeting all scheduled taskings. Logistics and training would be simplified and an order for 4, 5 or 6 pretty much identical OPVs (plus the potentially similar littoral vessel) would also decrease unit cost and may even make local construction a possibility (if combined with a frigate build).
IMHO simple, 6 OPVs around the 2,500 tonne mark with an Ice Class 1C strengthening, flight deck and hangar plus a couple of 25mm guns and the usual .50 cal, air and surface surveillance radars, basic sonar for ASW, something like StanFlex where can fit a couple of torpedo tubes, Sea Ceptor, 40mm or 76mm main gun, mission fitouts, CIWS etc., as required.
The next issue is the frigates, NZ has only two but really needs three or more simply for sustainment reasons. An increased OPV fleet would take some of the load off through being able to conduct some tasks that would otherwise require a frigate how ever an OPV is not a frigate and there are tasks that an OPV should not be used for unless its systems are beefed up to the point it costs almost as much as a frigate but is still less capable and survivable.
That is true and I've only added something like Sea Ceptor more for Helos that might cause problems or a sub that decides to fling off a SLSM. Definitely wouldn't send OPVs into hi tech frigate fight.
Lets assume NZ decides to baseline the next generation frigate on the capabilities of the upgraded ANZAC. Such a ship, using the latest technologies, would have a crew less than half the size of the ANZACs, even a third or quarter, if modern corvette designs are considered. Also, as many auxiliary systems as possible could be shared with the OPVs, in fact even elements of the combat system could be shared. These factors will dramatically reduce the cost of ownership verses an ANZAC. Again, steel is cheap and air is free so a larger hull could be specified, with plenty of growth reserve but also with the reduction in crew size and operating costs verses an ANZAC more hulls could be afforded and if these ships are ordered in a batch from an established yard costs could be reduced enough to justify additional units.
No, corvettes are not an option. If you going down that road might as well jut put some armour plating on an some extra OPVs mentioned above. No NZ is in the position where it, like it or not, has to have three or more GP frigates capable of doing ASW, ASuW and AAW even if it's only effective LAAD. However the ASW and ASuW have to be top notch and AAW preferably top notch.
Now here comes the stretch, some would say the pure fantasy, depending how many frigates, OPVs and Littoral Operations Support Ships are required, within a ceiling of total available crew and overall fleet operating costs, a local build of these ships could be justified, affordable and sustainable. Starting with the currently projected third OPV and a potentially common hulled littoral support ship as new design could be selected for local build.
By local build do you mean built in NZ?
Completed at two year intervals, from 2020, five new OPVs, with modular systems, are built with one outfitted for the littoral support role to replace the IPVs, Resolution and Manawanui. for a total of six OPVs and one support vessel. In 2030 the first of five new frigates is delivered from the same yard as the OPVs, commissioning at two year intervals through to 2038 and then the first two of seven new OPVs to replace the by then ancient Protector Class OPVs from 2040, then the newer OPVs and littoral ship following, again at two year intervals. Thus a continuous build of seven OPVs and five frigates is established with a new ship commissioning every two years and an old ship being replaced after twenty four years service.

Fantasy land I know but with the right amount of political will it could be done.
Maybe not quite fantasy land V. Actually it is quite a logical program and with the right amount of automation would be doable for a small navy. If you add to that build program an LPD and maybe a DDH :) then it would be a very busy yard. I am quite fond of your DDH concept for the RAN and think maybe in the future one could find a home on this side of the ditch especially if a govt found the will to purchase say a dozen Tiger ARHs to support it's expeditionary JATF.

However all this is theoretical but like I said it is a good plan and program V. I know just where I would put such a yard and that would go towards solving a high unemployment problem in a region away from a main centre but still be close enough to barge steel from the Glenbrook steel mill just south of Auckland. On the sensor side I'd like to see Ceafar etc., as the radars but CEC at moment don't know. I am aware of the tactical advantage of it but think the possibility exists that there may be a simpler and cheaper way achieving the same outcome and linking with current CEC. Something maybe us ANZACs could work on as a project.

You've most definitely given us a lot to think about and cogitate over V.
 

Lucasnz

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My own view is that NZDF funding should be back at 2%GDP like it was until the 1991 budget and it was affordable then and it is affordable now.
Couldn't agree more, but finding the money, given its all been redirected elsewhere is another matter. Either way that stupid Capital Charge would have to go in order to ensure the spending was equal in today's terms.


IMHO simple, 6 OPVs around the 2,500 tonne mark with an Ice Class 1C strengthening, flight deck and hangar plus a couple of 25mm guns and the usual .50 cal, air and surface surveillance radars, basic sonar for ASW, something like StanFlex where can fit a couple of torpedo tubes, Sea Ceptor, 40mm or 76mm main gun, mission fitouts, CIWS etc., as required.

That is true and I've only added something like Sea Ceptor more for Helos that might cause problems or a sub that decides to fling off a SLSM. Definitely wouldn't send OPVs into hi tech frigate fight.

No, corvettes are not an option. If you going down that road might as well jut put some armour plating on an some extra OPVs mentioned above. No NZ is in the position where it, like it or not, has to have three or more GP frigates capable of doing ASW, ASuW and AAW even if it's only effective LAAD. However the ASW and ASuW have to be top notch and AAW preferably top notch.
I agree corvettes are out but a Patrol Frigate (i.e Thetis) might not be a bad idea as it mirrors many of the requirements you mentioned without the development cost. I already expressed the view that the OPV's should pick out the Littoral Warfare Role and that is where I see the need for a smaller class of vessel. Given the standoff approach to MCM that the RNZN is developing the IPV could carry out some of that tasking, in the medium term.

However from the perspective of NZ minimalist approach to defence the question on the shape of the RNZN needs to be considered in terms of the overall strategy of a JATF by 2035 and the outputs the government currently requires. That would suggest a 3 by 3 structure (3 Frigates, 3 OPV and 3 IPV - the VR should get the 4th IPV.) might be the way the NZDF should go. I think a 4th OPV could be justified if the vessels were modular but beyond that I can't see much the NZDF could justify without a change in the regional strategic outlook.
 

ngatimozart

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However from the perspective of NZ minimalist approach to defence the question on the shape of the RNZN needs to be considered in terms of the overall strategy of a JATF by 2035 and the outputs the government currently requires. That would suggest a 3 by 3 structure (3 Frigates, 3 OPV and 3 IPV - the VR should get the 4th IPV.) might be the way the NZDF should go. I think a 4th OPV could be justified if the vessels were modular but beyond that I can't see much the NZDF could justify without a change in the regional strategic outlook.
I follow what happens around the world and I think the minimalist outlook is very detrimental, maybe even deleterious, to NZ Inc. This minimalist outlook is a Bolger / Richardson concept so that needs to be ditched otherwise some pollies are going to get a rather nasty wake up call sooner rather than later and that will be to bloody late for NZ Inc. The days of mobilising at the last minute, no 8 wire she'll be right attitude and Kiwi guts and glory are long gone. It takes far to long now to build ships, acquire weapons, train sailors, train air crew etc. You cannot do it in 6 months like they did in 1939 - 1945. There's a fight a coming and we'll be dragged into whether we like it or not just because of where our SLOCs are and where we are. Our spatial i.e., geographic, isolation is no longer a boon to us defence wise; in fact it is a hindrance because it has caused a false myopic view amongst the political, academic and bureaucratic elite as well as most of the great hairy unwashed.
 
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