Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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the road runner

Active Member
Soryu has a 9 mtr beam so 10mtrs of hull equates to about 140 m3 of hull volume, a significant figure in submarine terms. (An average gravel truck is 6 mtrs)
Agreed. That 10 meter section must weigh 300+ ton once the AIP unit/steel structure ect is taken into account.I wonder how many batteries or extra fuel could be jammed into 140 m3. This must be the balancing act that decides if we go AIP.

For the Japanese, i assume they have less distance to travel to get to their area of operations.Loitering on an AIP once in their AO would be more important.

Australia has a longer transit time to get to their AO so i assume fuel would be more important for an Australian sub?

60% of the time ,if not more, would be our subs transiting to and from base.
All speculation on my behalf here.
 

Joe Black

Active Member
Australia has a longer transit time to get to their AO so i assume fuel would be more important for an Australian sub?

60% of the time ,if not more, would be our subs transiting to and from base.
All speculation on my behalf here.
Rear Admiral Rowan Moffitt said in his interview that endurance is more about the people less about the fuel.

See the interview here:
youtube.com/watch?v=6IZ8GroORfI
 

the road runner

Active Member
Rear Admiral Rowan Moffitt said in his interview that endurance is more about the people less about the fuel.

See the interview here:
youtube.com/watch?v=6IZ8GroORfI
Just trying to understand if the AIP is as much value to the RAN compared to other Navy's. Would that area the AIP takes up be better used to have fuel,battery's,better living area for the crew,more food storage,weapons such as TLAM ,special forces,ect.??

I do recall gf talking about an AIP being not as useful for the RAN
Just curious if this is still true

Cheers.
 
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hairyman

Active Member
The government may just be making noise re purchasing off the shelf Japanese subs. I personally would like to see our new subs built here, in groups of three, with each three being an improvement on the last, 9 Subs would be the minimum I would imagine. This government would never order 12, simply because that is the number Kevin Rudd wanted.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Just trying to understand if the AIP is as much value to the RAN compared to other Navy's. Would that area the AIP takes up be better used to have fuel,battery's,better living area for the crew,more food storage,weapons such as TLAM ,special forces,ect.

I do recall gf talking about an AIP being not as useful for the RAN
Just curious if this is still true

Cheers.
Unless there has been some significant improvements in AIP systems, then I do not think AIP would be a net benefit for the RAN. Part of the issue has to do with the energy density of AIP fuels vs. marine/naval diesel, and the other is the rate of energy generation from AIP systems vs. diesel-electric systems.

As Euro subs have demonstrated an AIP equipped sub can make a three week transit IIRC from a port in the Atlantic/North Sea to the Med, completely submerged, albeit the transit was slow. One of the other significant issues for RAN subs, is that the combat systems, sensors, etc in use as well as the machinery require significant amounts of power. AFAIK the power requirements far exceed what current AIP systems can generate, which means drawing on the batteries (like regular diesel-electrics do) until needing to surface/snort to recharge the batteries. As I understand it, with the current gen-set a Collins-class SSG can quickly recharge the batteries with a comparatively small indiscretion rate.

The government may just be making noise re purchasing off the shelf Japanese subs. I personally would like to see our new subs built here, in groups of three, with each three being an improvement on the last, 9 Subs would be the minimum I would imagine. This government would never order 12, simply because that is the number Kevin Rudd wanted.
I think groups of four would be better, not three. Most pieces of military kit follow the rule of three, one in refit, one in training/workup for an op, and the third available or deployed on operations. Subs tend to follow a rule of four, so I think having the builds done in groups of four makes more sense.

-Cheers
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Tricky part is that a submarine needs to remain relatively steady in the water during the firing phase and gives away its position when the missile penetrates the surface of the water, the implication being a ship or aircraft or whatever sees/detects the launch then they may persecute the target of opportunity so high speed would - in that instance - be a useful trait for the escape.

But that's a very iffy scenario

Firstly if there are surface/sub surface or aerial contacts so close to the launch vehicle then why would they launch in the first place? Or commanders put the submarine in a position where there is the risk of it being attacked upon launching?

Secondly in the more likely scenario of a non-peer conflict this becomes significantly less of a risk as the OPFOR don't have the assets to be able to patrol at the required distances or at least not on an enduring basis for any significant time in a conflict involving the US and coalition air forces.

Thirdly cruise missile strikes these days are done under very select circumstances involving several stages of planning, it's not a case of launching one on the fly, meaning the submarine would be able to conduct several hours of patrols in their zone to determine if the area is clear. This is partly due to the construction of TLAM IIRC as it currently can't prosecute moving targets or update in flight (although i'm not so sure on the last point come to think of it), two characteristics which are necessary for eliminating targets of opportunity in most cases.

AFAIK that's accurate, although i'd appreciate being pointed in the right direction if not.
TacTom Block IV can engage moving targets and can be re-targeted inflight.

Multimission Maritime Tactical Tomahawk - YouTube
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
On the former point I know it was a characteristic that was being studied for TLAM for a while but didn't know how far along the chain it was so didn't really bring it up, Raytheon published on Marth 5th this year that their first test of hitting a moving target was successfully conducted on Feb 20th. As to the latter, that's new info for me.
 

StoresBasher

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
All appear to be pre-docking. All the removable deck rails are in place and the superstructure staining is still there. Flight deck looks unfinished.
Yes they look very much like the pre-docking pics.
I was ready with camera in hand to take shots of her leaving the CCDD, but even before I could get one shot off, my phone rang and the boss wanted me up at FHQ pronto.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Nice to see a ship build in the RAN get so much positive press. Value, impressive, hugeness. Looks great in the harbor.

on the subs, with improvements in battery technology it is possible to create space for AIP, but does AIP buy you something that more batteries can't give you. Depends on how much you want to spend and CONOPS. What sort of AIP? Will the AIP work with the CONOPs. Sterling cycle engines in tropical waters? How long do you want to store the liquid oxygen for?..
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
CONOPS is what killed the IKL tender for Collins in the first place. The Germans were so convinced that they had the best design that the RAN would just tow the line and operate the boats how the German Navy does. The Swedes on the other hand listened and designed a boat that fit the RAN requirements /CONOPS. So long as the government listens to the operators the same will happen again, the RAN will select the design option that best fits their needs.
 

the road runner

Active Member
Was just reading an article regarding the future sub.If the report is to be believed Australia will build a new design sub. The Germans and Sweden are both at war with one another to win the design of the new sub.

The article states that Sweden still own's the IP of Collins,and this could be an issue designing an evolved Collins.Sounds like we are headed for another steel spies and spin saga for our future sub. I look forward to reading the book once its published.

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Was just reading an article regarding the future sub.If the report is to be believed Australia will build a new design sub. The Germans and Sweden are both at war with one another to win the design of the new sub.

The article states that Sweden still own's the IP of Collins,and this could be an issue designing an evolved Collins.Sounds like we are headed for another steel spies and spin saga for our future sub. I look forward to reading the book once its published.

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian
Jeez I thought all that crap was put to bed ages ago the way I understood from GF & the Sweedes would not even be thought about for our next gen boats.

I think it's time to set up an Australian defence party and become a thorn in the majors backside regarding defence issues.
 

the road runner

Active Member
Jeez I thought all that crap was put to bed ages ago the way I understood from GF & the Sweedes would not even be thought about for our next gen boats.
I recall that to. I just thought i would post the article to see what others thought of it.
I do take anything published in the paper with a grain of salt.

Edit. I just have to wonder why the press bags Australia as not being able to produce a sub.We built 6 ocean going subs. I thought Australian companies and trades did a good job on the construction of Collins as per the Coles report.
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Was just reading an article regarding the future sub.If the report is to be believed Australia will build a new design sub. The Germans and Sweden are both at war with one another to win the design of the new sub.

The article states that Sweden still own's the IP of Collins,and this could be an issue designing an evolved Collins.Sounds like we are headed for another steel spies and spin saga for our future sub. I look forward to reading the book once its published.

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

The weekend australian article by cameron just made me wince even more....

oh for decent journos in defence matters.....
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Jeez I thought all that crap was put to bed ages ago the way I understood from GF & the Sweedes would not even be thought about for our next gen boats.

I think it's time to set up an Australian defence party and become a thorn in the majors backside regarding defence issues.
nope, I personally have a view but in broad brush strokes the swedes had a better culture and the germans (IMO) a better solution

you need both
 

Joe Black

Active Member
Swedish firm Saab bids to design new Royal Australian Navy submarines

Swedish firm Saab bids to design new Royal Australian Navy submarines

SWEDISH defence giant Saab is making a bold, secret play for a slice of Australia’s $30 billion future submarine project.

As Federal Government placed all options for the navy’s future submarine back on the table this week, News Corp Australia can reveal that Saab and the Swedish Government have been engaged in secret talks with the Defence Department about the design of the new boats.

A Swedish delegation travelled to Canberra in March for first round talks.

Sweden has along history in submarines but it moved away from the business about 15 years ago when its shipbuilder Kockums — the company that designed the Collins Class submarine — was sold to German company Thyssen Krupp MS (TKMS).

The Swedish Government last month cancelled a deal with Kockums to buy its future submarine and since then it has contracted Saab to examine options for the nation’s sub-surface fleet.

One option is buying the submarine builder back from TKMS and possibly expanding operations in Australia.

Saab has hired almost 100 submarine experts from Kockums during the past month and its spokesman Anders Carp hinted that the hi-tech defence company could make a bid for Adelaide based submarine maker ASC if an when it came up for sale.

“We are impressed with the company,” Mr Carp said.

When asked if Saab might buy the company and build the Swedish submarines in Adelaide he did not rule it out and he added that 80 per cent of the company’s popular Gripen fighter jet was built elsewhere.

He said discussions between Saab and Australia had involved the design of the vessel and not the combat management systems. Australia favours an American combat system.

Saab already has crucial safety systems installed in the Collins Class fleet.

Mr Carp said the option for an evolved Collins Class vessel would be the most cost effective solution for Australia.

Saab executives met with government staffers on the sidelines of this week’s ASPI submarine conference in Canberra.

Defence Minister David Johnston told the conference that all options were on the table as the government developed its first Defence White Paper for release early next year.

He said the favoured option was to build the boats in Adelaide but “not at any cost”.

Options also include a possible partnership with the world’s biggest and most capable diesel-electric submarines the 4200-tonne Japanese Soryu Class boat.

Discussions with the Japanese are well advanced, but Senator Johnston refused to elaborate saying they were “commercial-in-confidence”.

There is strong interest in the Swedish designed Stirling engine and its air independent propulsion system that allows the vessel to remain submerged for long periods of time.

The biggest drawback with a diesel-electric boat compared with a nuclear vessel is the need to “snorkel” for air to feed the diesels that recharge the batteries.

The advantage of conventional powered vessels is their silence and that they can operate in shallower waters than nuclear submarines.

Ian McPhedran travelled to Sweden as a guest of Saab

news.com.au/national/swedish-firm-saab-bids-to-design-new-royal-australian-navy-submarines/story-fncynjr2-1226881354893
 
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