Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[John Newman]

An alternate proposal for the Cantabria class, is two ships in parallel builds. One hull in Spain, with superstructure blocks built in Australia, and a second complete ship including hull assembled at Williamstown. The block work can be divided out for the second ship, and the consolidation done at Williamstown. That will provide work for all. The yard can handle two Cantabria sized ships alongside for fit-out and systems integration.

The problem with following the same path as LHD, is there is just not enough fabrication work in the superstructure, nothing like an LHD. And the parallel build will ensure the ships are delivered within 12 months of each other. The ASC proposal of two complete ships built overseas + one locally, is possibly because the yard is at capacity to deliver the three AWDs and could only handle the third ship when the timing better matches the reduced workload once the first and second AWDs are done and the third well underway.

Whilst Williamstown can certainly build blocks and consolidate them onto an existing hull, as per the LHD project, but as I understand it, the graving dock at Williamstown is not big enough to build a ship the size of Cantabria, there are physical constraints to building ships of that size.

 

[Samoa]

Whilst Williamstown can certainly build blocks and consolidate them onto an existing hull, as per the LHD project, but as I understand it, the graving dock at Williamstown is not big enough to build a ship the size of Cantabria, there are physical constraints to building ships of that size.

That is true as it stands, but I am assured that the it is possible. My understanding is that BAE has already looked at the graving dock and have a proposal that will allow for an extension to accommodate the extra 30m or so required.

 

[Volkodav]

That is true as it stands, but I am assured that the it is possible. My understanding is that BAE has already looked at the graving dock and have a proposal that will allow for an extension to accommodate the extra 30m or so required.

Sort of depends what BAEs long term plans for Williamstown are. I am surprised they aren't pushing the Perth option or even Adelaide as there is plenty of space at both and I imagine there would be change to spare if they cleaned up an redeveloped Williamstown.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I have heard and read the 10 FFGs before but never any details, when was this planned, obviously pre ANZAC?

The plan to build large number of FFGs was the reasoning behind the Australian Frigate Project (circa 1982-84) which resulted in FFGs 05 and 06. The idea was to rejuvenate Williamstown under private ownership (which became Tenix) and build lots of frigates there. FFG was selected against the Dutch M Class (Karel Doorman from back when it was just a design). The Dibb Review came along and reduced the requirement for FFGs and replaced them with patrol frigates. Which resulted in the Anzac class.

 

[John Newman]

That is true as it stands, but I am assured that the it is possible. My understanding is that BAE has already looked at the graving dock and have a proposal that will allow for an extension to accommodate the extra 30m or so required.

But would it be worth the investment? How often would an extended graving dock be used to construct large ships again?

I tend to agree with Volkodav, why not expand the more modern yards with plenty of space to grow at both or either Henderson and Techport?

For example, Techport, yes the site is currently mostly occupied by ASC, but as the site is owed by the SA Government, there is nothing stoping BAE putting in a bid to build Cantabria type ships and then use the common user facility to assemble the ships there.

The issue of enough work to go around is no doubt complicated by the number of yards/block suppliers who are all trying to get their little bit of meat off the bone, is it also time to rationalise the number of yards so that the strongest survive rather than them all slowly starving bit by bit?

We've also seen news in the last few days about shipyards being closed down in the UK for lack of work, maybe we will see that happen here too.

The number of yards here in Australia is no doubt complicated further by each State Government wanting to have facilities in their own states too for all the political reasons associated with that, we've got BAE at Henderson in WA, BAE at Williamstown in Vic, Forgacs at Newcastle NSW and ASC at Techport in SA, yes of course there is also Austal at Henderson in WA too.

If you could take the politics out of it, and that would probably be almost impossible to do, who would be best to invest in for the future to survive and in which locations?

Austal will no doubt survive on it's commercial activities and their patrol boat products for the local and overseas markets. Forgacs as a business seems to have a reasonably diverse portfolio of work outside of shipbuilding and I assume could continue to survive doing that, but would still be used as a block fabricator for the ship assembly yards when that work was available.

So that leaves ASC at Techport, BAE at Henderson and also BAE at the space constrained Williamstown site.

As Volkodav suggested, the Williamstown site could be redeveloped, it would be worth a fortune as new residential or mixed commercial site, no doubt the Unions and the Vic State Government would scream rather loudly about the loss of jobs, but that could be counter balanced by the redevelopment of the site and the employment prospects in construction and ongoing new employment opportunities on that site.

That's not to say that BAE couldn't still be involved in block construction in Vic (as I'm sure the state government and unions would want it to do), be it on part of the existing site or a greenfield site specifically for block work located on Port Phillip Bay somewhere, but would it be worth it? Is that still spreading block work too thinly for the industry as a whole?

So that leaves Techport and Henderson as the nations Naval ship consolidation yards, both sites could also perform block work and if necessary block work would also go to Forgacs and BAE in Vic if it was decided that it was worth having a block construction facility in Melbourne.

Anyway, just my opinion, I just can't see that all can survive in the longer term, so maybe it's better to do some consolidation now for the future benefit and sustainment of Naval shipbuilding in this country as a whole.

 

[Volkodav]

The plan to build large number of FFGs was the reasoning behind the Australian Frigate Project (circa 1982-84) which resulted in FFGs 05 and 06. The idea was to rejuvenate Williamstown under private ownership (which became Tenix) and build lots of frigates there. FFG was selected against the Dutch M Class (Karel Doorman from back when it was just a design). The Dibb Review came along and reduced the requirement for FFGs and replaced them with patrol frigates. Which resulted in the Anzac class.

How ironic, the FFG 7 was originally designated a PF or Patrol Frigate. Boy does Dibb have a lot to answer for, 10 FFGs and a proper, timely destroyer replacement would have been much better for the RAN than the ANZACs. It would have been cheaper I imagine and would have left sufficient money to replace the Fremantles with corvettes.

With 10+ FFGs a better upgrade path could have been developed with VLS in place of the Mk13. I remember reading one option looked at was inserting a number of Mk 41 modules in one of the hangers.

Then again with a continuous build of FFGs followed (I imagine) by a DDG replacement it would only make sense to keep building a new DDG/FFG design to replace the earlier 70s built FFGs come the 2000s instead of upgrading them. Forget AEGIS / SPY and go CEAFAR.

Sorry dreaming again, this is Australia a vision and common-sense free zone!

 

[gf0012-aust]

Sort of depends what BAEs long term plans for Williamstown are. I am surprised they aren't pushing the Perth option or even Adelaide as there is plenty of space at both and I imagine there would be change to spare if they cleaned up an redeveloped Williamstown.

I don't think that there is any interest in revitalising Williamstown. There are no more Fed or State elections in progress and thus no incentive for political parties to use it as a vote catcher. There wasn't a lot of interest politically from both majors anyway

On top of which, the motivation to do something would need to be order driven - and thats looking thin as well

If the WA mafia in the Libs get their way then it will be a floating coke can solution for all the minor skimmers....

 

[Volkodav]

But would it be worth the investment? How often would an extended graving dock be used to construct large ships again?

I tend to agree with Volkodav, why not expand the more modern yards with plenty of space to grow at both or either Henderson and Techport?

For example, Techport, yes the site is currently mostly occupied by ASC, but as the site is owed by the SA Government, there is nothing stoping BAE putting in a bid to build Cantabria type ships and then use the common user facility to assemble the ships there.

The issue of enough work to go around is no doubt complicated by the number of yards/block suppliers who are all trying to get their little bit of meat off the bone, is it also time to rationalise the number of yards so that the strongest survive rather than them all slowly starving bit by bit?

We've also seen news in the last few days about shipyards being closed down in the UK for lack of work, maybe we will see that happen here too.

The number of yards here in Australia is no doubt complicated further by each State Government wanting to have facilities in their own states too for all the political reasons associated with that, we've got BAE at Henderson in WA, BAE at Williamstown in Vic, Forgacs at Newcastle NSW and ASC at Techport in SA, yes of course there is also Austal at Henderson in WA too.

If you could take the politics out of it, and that would probably be almost impossible to do, who would be best to invest in for the future to survive and in which locations?

Austal will no doubt survive on it's commercial activities and their patrol boat products for the local and overseas markets. Forgacs as a business seems to have a reasonably diverse portfolio of work outside of shipbuilding and I assume could continue to survive doing that, but would still be used as a block fabricator for the ship assembly yards when that work was available.

So that leaves ASC at Techport, BAE at Henderson and also BAE at the space constrained Williamstown site.

As Volkodav suggested, the Williamstown site could be redeveloped, it would be worth a fortune as new residential or mixed commercial site, no doubt the Unions and the Vic State Government would scream rather loudly about the loss of jobs, but that could be counter balanced by the redevelopment of the site and the employment prospects in construction and ongoing new employment opportunities on that site.

That's not to say that BAE couldn't still be involved in block construction in Vic (as I'm sure the state government and unions would want it to do), be it on part of the existing site or a greenfield site specifically for block work located on Port Phillip Bay somewhere, but would it be worth it? Is that still spreading block work too thinly for the industry as a whole?

So that leaves Techport and Henderson as the nations Naval ship consolidation yards, both sites could also perform block work and if necessary block work would also go to Forgacs and BAE in Vic if it was decided that it was worth having a block construction facility in Melbourne.

Anyway, just my opinion, I just can't see that all can survive in the longer term, so maybe it's better to do some consolidation now for the future benefit and sustainment of Naval shipbuilding in this country as a whole.

Lets look at it this way, let Williamstown specialise in keel blocks for ships of all size, consolidation of small to medium naval vessels and outfit of all but the most technologically advance platforms. Forgacs could build hull blocks for everything , consolidate very large vessels and outfit simpler vessels. ASC would build high precision super structure blocks for everything, consolidate and outfit high end surface combatants.

Stop sending work overseas for imagined savings, stop wasting billions upgrading instead of replacing platforms and stop this stupid, repetitive boom and bust situation for local ship building. Produce a plan indicating numbers and estimated tonnage and stick to it, let industry, RAN and government plan for the long term.

 

[Volkodav]

I don't think that there is any interest in revitalising Williamstown. There are no more Fed or State elections in progress and thus no incentive for political parties to use it as a vote catcher. There wasn't a lot of interest politically from both majors anyway

On top of which, the motivation to do something would need to be order driven - and thats looking thin as well

If the WA mafia in the Libs get their way then it will be a floating coke can solution for all the minor skimmers....

God help us1

We would almost be better off with Beazleys Coast Guard proposal, at least then all the Bays, Armidales, Capes and off shore support vessels would be coming out of a different bucket of money and the RAN could concentrate on real naval vessels. Personally I would be much happier if the RAN had replacements for the LCHs, as well as some ocean going mine hunters, littoral combat vessels etc.

 

[John Newman]

Stop sending work overseas for imagined savings, stop wasting billions upgrading instead of replacing platforms and stop this stupid, repetitive boom and bust situation for local ship building. Produce a plan indicating numbers and estimated tonnage and stick to it, let industry, RAN and government plan for the long term.

I sometimes wonder how things would be if Defence could be separated and insulated from the usual 3 year election cycle BS and become truly bipartisan with a '10 year' plan clearly laid out for funding, a clear plan laid out for equipment and agreed to by all political parties, yes it's a dream that I know won't come true.

Or have a benevolent Dictator in charge perhaps? A mate of mine said to me many years ago, to get anything done in this country we need is a benevolent Dictator, put them in for 10 years with a clear plan to work to and stick to it!

Of course by the end of the 10 years and before the benevolent Dictator becomes too comfortable, take him out the back, dispose of him and put a fresh one in with the next 10 year plan!


Anyway, I agree 100% that a plan should be made for the long term and that Government should stick to it, unfortunately the reality is that politics, politicians and differing views of the political parties is always going to get in the way, as it always has!

 

[t68]

The US has a 30 year plan for shipbuilding why can’t the RAN have a similar 30 year plan with the major surface warfare ships of 10 ASW & 6 AWD and pushing out a new ship every 2/3 years, expand Techport to be the sole builder of the 1st tier fleet. Williamstown and Henderson doing repairs and refits Austral building customs vessels and Forgacs building support ships such as LCH, Bays & AOR etc.

Just got to have someone with a bit of vision in power and make it LAW for the RAN to be of a certain size easier said than done though.

 

[StobieWan]

What tends to happen in the UK (for instance) is that if it's a big multiyear program, the incumbent government talks to opposition privately and gets a consensus before talking the idea up.

It certainly happened on the Polaris replacement where the Tory government knew full well there was no point in proceeding if the next government would chop the lot, and that sort of realism has helped broadly with getting things like the Trident replacement (where the last defence minister under labour pre-ordered long lead time items like the particular steel required and also work on the PWR3 reactor, well ahead of even a review of the replacement discussion)

The carriers and F35 are similar items - both sides recognise and understand that they are needed and there's less chance of the chop and change effect that might be seen otherwise.

There's still strange stuff going on now and then and I guess some of this has been mitigated by long periods of goverment - 17 years of Tory and then 14 or so years of labour - and we may well get a second Tory term at this rate so that'd be ten years of government (I'm discounting the lib-dem part of the coalition as they've been mewling pipsqueaks throughout !)

For that sort of situation to arise however, you need politics to be very much less polarised than I get the impression they are in Australia.

I'm not (obviously!) trying to push any perception of superiority here - we have a colossal series of purchasing cockups in the past and we are definitely on a "C-, must try harder" status at present.

 

[rand0m]

Gee ... those LHD's would surely be handy up in Philippines right now, I'm surprised Choules isn't making an emergency dash?

 

[John Newman]

Gee ... those LHD's would surely be handy up in Philippines right now, I'm surprised Choules isn't making an emergency dash?

I just saw some vision on TV of the destruction, looks pretty bad to say the least.

Will Choules go? Maybe in the longer term, depends on the request we get from their Government.

But if we are going to provide early assistance, I'd assume that we would probably see C-17's or C-130's involved taking essential supplies such as medicines, shelter, water, food, etc.

Certainly been a lot of Typhoons in that part of the world recently, my Daughter and her partner arrived home a week ago from a month in Vietnam. At one stage they had to be evacuated from the town they were in after a Typhoon struck, the water rose 2 metres in 24 hours, she told me that at that point in time, it had been the 12th Typhoon to hit this year and their 3rd serious flooding too.

 

[rand0m]

I just saw some vision on TV of the destruction, looks pretty bad to say the least.

Will Choules go? Maybe in the longer term, depends on the request we get from their Government.

But if we are going to provide early assistance, I'd assume that we would probably see C-17's or C-130's involved taking essential supplies such as medicines, shelter, water, food, etc.

Certainly been a lot of Typhoons in that part of the world recently, my Daughter and her partner arrived home a week ago from a month in Vietnam. At one stage they had to be evacuated from the town they were in after a Typhoon struck, the water rose 2 metres in 24 hours, she told me that at that point in time, it had been the 12th Typhoon to hit this year and their 3rd serious flooding too.

I was supposed to be in Boracay right now but couldn't go because of work, it was smack bang in the middle of the Typhoon too! dodged a bit of a bullet there =\

 

[ASSAIL]

I just saw some vision on TV of the destruction, looks pretty bad to say the least.

Will Choules go? Maybe in the longer term, depends on the request we get from their Government.

Poor buggers in Choules have been away for ages.
About time we got some value from Ocean Shield if you ask me. Isn't this the excuse the ex defmin used to buy it?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Poor buggers in Choules have been away for ages.
About time we got some value from Ocean Shield if you ask me. Isn't this the excuse the ex defmin used to buy it?

nah, politically incorrect to call it a prison ship so unfit for task .....

 

[Volkodav]

nah, politically incorrect to call it a prison ship so unfit for task .....

Well prison hulks are a part of Australian colonial heritage, may be we should bring them ashore and use them as slave labour if we really wanted to stick to the way we used to do things.

 

[King Wally]

Poor buggers in Choules have been away for ages.
About time we got some value from Ocean Shield if you ask me. Isn't this the excuse the ex defmin used to buy it?

Ocean Shield cant embark with a helo can it? Who designs/buys a humanitarian mother ship without a hanger? Oh well, maybe that's just me. Seams like a lot of wasted potential.

 

[ASSAIL]

nah, politically incorrect to call it a prison ship so unfit for task .....

??? I was all for sending it to the Philippines or are you "tired and emotional" D: