The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[RobWilliams]

Somehow I can't see the UK operating the C295, particularly when you think the capital cost of P8s over say 30 years is likely to be quite modest.

I hope not, but there's 2 critical reasons why it could be a serious option in the eyes of the MOD. It's cheaper to buy and cheaper to maintain.

Interesting if we did acquire P8s and fitted them for Storm Shadow, probably a very cost effective way of delivering them at long ranges, almost a return to the FOAS concept.

Definitely, IIRC French ATL-2's threw a couple of LGBs at Islamists in Mali. I'm quite fond of the idea myself, makes it a bit more multirole than just ships and submarines but it costs. If we did buy the AAS 'canoe', add a couple more airframes to the pool to take over Sentinel then it could be a much more potent asset IMO.

Certainly would like to see a return of the air launched AShM again too . . . .

 

[FluffyThoughts]

The SC-130J makes a lot of sense logistically. The question is: Can we leverage Sentinel and MRA4 to by a more effective system for the Royal Navy?

The premise is thus:

Spain has been bailed-out by Germany; Germany is cutting it's cloth to fund the GIPSI nations. As a result - hat-tip TD - there is a surplus of over-engineered turbo-props.

Now we all know that SEEDCORN is meant to maintain capabilities. We alse know that the UK economy is perkie compared to Europe. Given the interest in CROWSNEST - and our innate ability to bodge-and-badge - is it beyond our wit to build a modular [Sea-Spray 7500 based] system from our - say, forty-odd - A400Ms?

Bringing maintenance and training to England for external customers would be a great multiplier that will off-set the costs of another - failed - Europroject. Building a common fleet based upon the EuroTurkey will probably save us training and supply-chain costs in the long-run: What is not to like...?

:coffee

 

[1805]

I don't know if anyone else has noticed, there has been a fair bit of PR for the RN this week with the BBC. On Wednesday night there was quite a big piece on the One Show about the control tower being installed on QE and then this morning BBC Breakfast was at Barrow, having a look round HMS Artful.

BBC One - Breakfast, 20/09/2013, Down by the dockside: Take a look around the Navy's latest submarine

Both popular media pieces and great exposure for the RN. I can't wait for the coverage of QE launching...trials...commissioning it might go on for years.

 

[FluffyThoughts]

The Tide class MARS AOR

Sorry to ask but I have tried the BMT site and Wiki but I cannot - or will not - accept that they have the information I require: So here is my question:

The Tide-class is a 37k-tonne vessel (full-load?). The Aegir-19R is ~19k-tonnes and handles a single Merlin-sized aircraft. Will the Tide-class have the same restriction?

If the class follows the "Fort" design than should they not be able to support three? Assuming that they can support three - and considering one (Tide-V?) will always be along-side a QE CVF - could not Merlin maintenance be better handled upon these vessels?

Apart from emergencies it would make sense to do maintenance upon stores-ships (where spares and TEUs are available). This will allow the carriers to concentrate their onboard support for the Dave-Bs that are the core of "Carrier-Strike". Why lug an (or three) engine over to a neighbouring ship is they are onboard-stores of a floating helicopter storage vessel?

This opens other possibilities; such as whether MARS-SS can be a derivation of the Tide-class. Add in our helicopter/hospital-ship requirements could we not buy a number of SKorean built vessels to support and maintain our fleet (aove-and-beyond the Tide-class) based upon a generic design?

For Fleet-vessel protaganists: Most of our escorts seem only to fit one Merlin. Again there may be opportunities to rationalise helicopter maintenance-support....

 

[kev 99]

The Tide class aren't replacements for the Forts so we shouldn't expect them to have the same hanger capacity, most of the ships that the Tide class are replacing (Rovers and Leafs) don't have hangers so space for the single Merlin that they will get is an increase in capacity. Concept art (which annoyingly I can't find now) for the Solid Stores ships that will replace the Forts have showing a 3 Merlin hanger and a pair of Chinooks on the flight deck.

 

[overlander]

Hammond: 'Second UK carrier worth using'

Defence Secretary Philip Hammond is going to recommend both Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers be brought into service.

Existing plans will see HMS Queen Elizabeth enter service on completion, with HMS Prince of Wales kept in mothballs pending the 2015 Strategic Defence and Security Review.

Mr Hammond told a Tory party fringe meeting the 70 million pound annual running costs of the second carrier would have to be found from cuts.

He said: "It's got to be a decision for the SDSR... my recommendation would be we should try to support the use of the second carrier.

"I think having put the money we have into building the carriers, for the sake of about £70 million per year being able to operate the second carrier looks like a snip.

"But it does mean we have to stop doing something else. If we spend an extra £70 million a year to be able to operate two carriers, which gives us a guaranteed one permanently available to go to sea, if we do that we will have to stop doing something else.

"All these things are about choices and priorities, what are we going to give up in order to do something that needs to be done."

Hammond: 'Second UK carrier worth using' | British Forces News

This is logical, we will see if these polticians hungry of defence cuts make something to compensate a little the massive defence cuts they have done in the last years, it would be necessary at least.

 

[overlander]

Beautiful computer made image of a queen elizabeth class carrier together with a daring class destroyer, click on the link.

[ame="http://www.flickr.com/photos/qeclasscarriers/9929674624/lightbox/"]New CGI of operational aircraft carriers | Flickr - Photo Sharing![/ame]

 

[overlander]

The flight deck of the first of the Navy's new aircraft carriers is now finished, with the last 2 sections added to HMS Queen Elizabeth.


The sponsons, each weighing just under 500 tonnes, roughly the same as a Sandown Class minehunter, have been carefully inched into place in Rosyth in Scotland.

The mighty Goliath crane lifted the sponsons – the sections protruding from the hull which give an aircraft carrier its unique shape – to join the remainder of the ship in her dry dock.

By the standards of the Queen Elizabeth, the segments are relatively small; the larger sections weighed in at more than 10,000 tonnes (heavier than a Type 45 destroyer).

Now physically complete the flight deck is the size of 60 tennis courts or just a bit smaller than 3 football pitches.

To accommodate the F-35 Lightning II jets, which will land and take off from the ship, a ski ramp will be installed next month – mirroring the feature which propelled the Harrier skywards on the Invincible Class of carriers.

The Queen Elizabeth Class project is probably at the peak of effort, with around 10,000 people involved in building the 2 leviathans, or providing equipment and systems to be installed on them.

While almost all the media attention is focused on the future flagship, there’s also an all-out effort across the land to build her younger sister, the Prince of Wales, which is around 2 years behind Queen Elizabeth.

Sections of 3-quarters of the Prince of Wales’s hull are under construction in Portsmouth, Govan, Merseyside and Tyneside.

The 65,000-tonne Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers will be based in Portsmouth and will be the centrepiece of the UK’s military capability.

HMS Queen Elizabeth is due to begin sea trials in 2017 and flight trials from her deck using Lightning II fast jets in 2018.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hms-queen-elizabeth-flight-deck-completed

Very good news maybe the carrier will be finished before than schedule.

 

[kev 99]

Looks like Sea Ceptor just one it's first export contract:

The New Zealand MoD has confirmed its preferred tenderers for the Royal New Zealand Navy’s (RNZN) ANZAC Frigate Systems Upgrade project to include MBDA as the provider of Sea Ceptor for the Local Area Air Defence (LAAD) system; subject to the New Zealand (NZ) Government’s final approval to proceed. Sea Ceptor will equip frigates HMNZ Te Kaha and Te Mana with the latest generation naval air defence system capable of protecting not only the host ship but also combined joint allied forces in the vicinity.

MBDA

:jump2

 

[Volkodav]

Looks like Sea Ceptor just one it's first export contract:

The New Zealand MoD has confirmed its preferred tenderers for the Royal New Zealand Navy’s (RNZN) ANZAC Frigate Systems Upgrade project to include MBDA as the provider of Sea Ceptor for the Local Area Air Defence (LAAD) system; subject to the New Zealand (NZ) Government’s final approval to proceed. Sea Ceptor will equip frigates HMNZ Te Kaha and Te Mana with the latest generation naval air defence system capable of protecting not only the host ship but also combined joint allied forces in the vicinity.

MBDA

:jump2

That's quite odd, I would have thought ESSM would be the obvious choice for a ship with an 8 cell Mk41 and NATO Sea Sparrow as baseline, especially as their sisters across the Tasman have ESSM. Nothing against Sea Ceptor, it is a great system, just saying it seems to be an odd choice.

 

[1805]

That's quite odd, I would have thought ESSM would be the obvious choice for a ship with an 8 cell Mk41 and NATO Sea Sparrow as baseline, especially as their sisters across the Tasman have ESSM. Nothing against Sea Ceptor, it is a great system, just saying it seems to be an odd choice.

It could be a really significant move for Sea Ceptor. It has the potential to open up NATO Sea Sparrow users plus obviously the Sea Wolf users. The active seeker, light ship impact and I suspect competitive cost, hopefully makes it a fairly compelling proposition.

The planned cross decking in the RN, also shows the way for others and help mitigate the investment in refits for existing ships.

 

[Volkodav]

It could be a really significant move for Sea Ceptor. It has the potential to open up NATO Sea Sparrow users plus obviously the Sea Wolf users. The active seeker, light ship impact and I suspect competitive cost, hopefully makes it a fairly compelling proposition.

The planned cross decking in the RN, also shows the way for others and help mitigate the investment in refits for existing ships.

I still don't get it, the advantage of Sea Ceptor is it is a soft launch missile with limited ship impact and outstanding anti-missile capability. The RNZN ANZACs already have Phalanx and Mk41 it just seems odd that they are going for a missile that doesn't extend engagement range or complement existing systems, or improve commonality with key regional allies to the degree that ESSM would.

 

[1805]

I still don't get it, the advantage of Sea Ceptor is it is a soft launch missile with limited ship impact and outstanding anti-missile capability. The RNZN ANZACs already have Phalanx and Mk41 it just seems odd that they are going for a missile that doesn't extend engagement range or complement existing systems, or improve commonality with key regional allies to the degree that ESSM would.

I wonder if range is such an issue, over seeker performance/agility, in reality the most likely risk is a cheeky anti ship missile fired from a hostile shore or hiding FAC. Plus haven't the ANZACs had issues with top weight and upgrades. Phalanx is quite heavy and high up? I am sure price has come into it as well.

 

[StobieWan]

Interesting decision - I know the Anzacs are right up against it for weight margins so it's possible that by taking this route, they're clawing some margins back. Sea Ceptor is a lot lighter than ESSM, so you could get more missiles per pound,there's no requirement for an illuminator, Sea Ceptor already fits Mk41.

Either the decision is unique to the Kiwi's requirements or, just possibly, this might be the start of a series of sales for similar upgrades. ESSM has more reach and punch for sure but Sea Ceptor has some interesting wrinkles.

 

[Volkodav]

Interesting decision - I know the Anzacs are right up against it for weight margins so it's possible that by taking this route, they're clawing some margins back. Sea Ceptor is a lot lighter than ESSM, so you could get more missiles per pound,there's no requirement for an illuminator, Sea Ceptor already fits Mk41.

Either the decision is unique to the Kiwi's requirements or, just possibly, this might be the start of a series of sales for similar upgrades. ESSM has more reach and punch for sure but Sea Ceptor has some interesting wrinkles.

An interesting possibility is once NZ certifies Sea Ceptor with ANZAC there is nothing stopping Australia adopting it for theirs as well. This wouldn't be a replacement for the ESSM but an extra layer perhaps using the space provided for the second 8 cell Mk 41 that there is no longer the stability margin to install, either using the UK developed CAAM cells or LMs ExLS which could also be used for Nulka in place of the current launcher arrangements.

Thinking on it if NZ opts for the ExLS for the Sea Ceptor then that will give them a Nulka launcher as well.

 

[StobieWan]

I'd be surprised if Oz went that direction as well since they've already got ESSM in service whereas I don't think NZ does? It's an interesting decision I admit - with Sea Ceptor, you're adding a chunk of saturation proofing as you can lob off as many missiles as you have data channels for but you're losing the fidelity of track you get from pointing a dedicated TI at the target.

In terms of ease and whizz for doing the conversion, Sea Ceptor's a no brainer - no launch efflux, light weight cannisters, very little footprint on the vessel and all you need is power to the launcher and that data cable.

There's got to be a bunch of ships out there needing mid lifes to keep them competitive.

I still want to see Sea Ceptor on CVF. Like, now...

Well, not *now* but y'know...

 

[rnrp]

Had an interesting Time onboard Qe yesterday.
Have to say that the hanger is astoundingly big.
Actually takes your breath away at the size, safe to say that the RN hasn't had a hanger this big, shame there's going to be sod all in it!
Point I never knew though the ship has three boat bays in her port sponsons which are huge, open hatches to drop boats vertically to the sea below so must be going to be on grabbers as no sign of installation of them yet but lots of deck winches etc.

 

[StobieWan]

I'm jealous - I'd love to see inside the thing. As to hangar contents, well, F35 will be in production for years to come, early days yet.

 

[RobWilliams]

AFAIK the RN doesn't like storing aircraft up on the deck USN style if they can help it, i.e peacetime. So if anything it'll probably be the flight deck which'll look like a ghost town than the hangar which'll look positively frantic in comparison.

The RFTG looks to be having a pretty worthwhile deployment this year with Cougar 13, exercising with Albania, Saudi Arabia and now preparing for exercises with the armed forces of the UAE. Smart deployment, helping to cement our commitment to this strategically crucial region for the UK.

Response Force Task Group train for next phase of Cougar 13| Royal Navy

Ship list for Joint Warrior 2013 has been released, 5 frigates (Somerset, Monmouth, Portland, Northumberland and Sutherland) and 3 MCMV (Cattistock, Brocklesby & Bangor) on the UK's part. Naturally the RFTG is unavailable. Naval units from France, Denmark and Norway will take part with the Danish taking the lead on HDMS Absalon.

Royal Navy ready for Joint Warrior | Royal Navy

 

[harryriedl]

AFAIK the RN doesn't like storing aircraft up on the deck USN style if they can help it, i.e peacetime. So if anything it'll probably be the flight deck which'll look like a ghost town than the hangar which'll look positively frantic in comparison.

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The USN is adopting a similar posture what with the massively reduced decks compared with the past with most of the aircraft hangared rather than on deck what with at least 50% cut compared with the Cold War days. With give or take 48 FA plus the extras.