Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

seatmarbella · Jun 25, 2013

Australians complain about their politicians meddling too much in defense decision for acquisition programs. What sort of consequences in the australian defense expending is coming with a woman as Prime Minister, a woman that cries in the parlament doesn´t show any cold blood, nothing like the iron lady i suppose, it shows a strong emotive way of thinking or behaviour. In Spain we´ve gone further than that having a woman as Defense minister, thanks she didn´t have margin for manouvre, but a Prime MInister charge by a women is a very decisional charge with a lot of margin for manuovre.

If severe or cruel or difficult to assume, cuts are done to dependence pensions i have no doubts future Australian acquisition programas can be revised, more taking into account huge programs like the future subs programs with a lot money involved. Women are very nice and very attractive, but in politics they tend to be very emotive, going to defend continuosly woman rights expenditure and social expenditures.
In Spain lots of specific vocabulary for females was recognized by the female minister of equality, just a whole minister department for taking care of equity rights between men and women...:lol3

Bonza · Jun 25, 2013

Enough polluting the thread with your garbage. Enjoy your holiday and if you intend on coming back with the same BS, I promise you it will be a waste of time.

icelord · Jun 25, 2013

Jhom said:
I think I am a bit offended by your tone there... are you suggesting that Australia as a nation should take advantage of a country in deep economic trouble? Thats so kind of you I dont even know what to say...

Have we done anything wrong?

If you took offense i apologise, but considering we are already by paying for Cantabria to spend 9 month holiday here, im not far from spot on.

If we were in a shocking budget state, then im sure NZ requiring anything from a tug boat to a LHD for lease would be readily accepted. We have a decent amount of money to throw around, and others have need of money and need to offload vessels at short notice, its a buyers market out there for those who could lean back on resources during the GFC and not stocks. When we lost Manoora and Kanimbla we used HMNZS Canterbury for training platform for our own forces as they NZDF budget is in a poor state atm, so it helped us and them, and i got a free trip out of it

So possibly a larger fraction of the pie will have to be allocated to inderdicting small boats, and a relatively smaller portion to vessels suited to taking on nation states. Alternative is for the pie to be bigger of course.I am sure the admirals and big wigs in charge do not see stopping SIEVs as more important than high level warfighting however it seems more resources will need to be allocated.

We know where they are, what they are doing, but we cut budgets and cut back our ability to investigate, and no matter how much people spin it, pulling out 10 AFP agents from Indonesia when we need 10 more on top of the numbers there, shows we are all talk and little on action at this point. As for the war fighting part...yeah i wouldn't be so sure about that...there are many senior officers who have had no part in Op Resolute or any other part of Border security operations in their career, and draw conclusions from media more then experience, a sad state but true none the less. At least a majority of current Junior officers have to do ACPB time these days and learn very quickly to appreciate the job up here.

While we were able to shut it down for 2 years, much to commentators disbelief, the moment we showed weakness on our borders, boats came flooding over the horizon. Look at other countries Illegal Immigrants stats compared to ours from 2005-2008, they remained the same where as we declined to the point of having 3 boats over 12months...3! now we have 8 a week, massive difference and it comes back to softening up our rhetoric and showing weakness, and denialists will always argue otherwise, but 70-80% of the boats ive boarded this last 12 months have had very few people you would class as"poor" especially considering its up front payment, not pay it back like countries such as Mexico-US border. We are often seeing economic refugee make it this far, more then situation based. Most come from a vast difference of countries, including Romania recently, so the doors open and they are walking in.

ASSAIL · Jun 27, 2013

Watch this space

For all those interested in developments within the RAN, we will be back soon.
We have been far too bust lampooning the circus which passes for our national political scene and which has been hyperactive in recent days

ngatimozart · Jun 27, 2013

ASSAIL said:
For all those interested in developments within the RAN, we will be back soon.
We have been far too bust lampooning the circus which passes for our national political scene and which has been hyperactive in recent days

Entertaining it has been too, but they sure picked their timing. Just before State of Origin started. They could've done it a few hours earlier.

weegee · Jun 27, 2013

ngatimozart said:
Entertaining it has been too, but they sure picked their timing. Just before State of Origin started. They could've done it a few hours earlier.

But then we wouldn't have been able to watch those 2 security guards in the hallway for 3/4 of an hour while the count was being carried out! haha Origin can wait staring at a hallway can't.

t68 · Jun 27, 2013

ngatimozart said:
Entertaining it has been too, but they sure picked their timing. Just before State of Origin started. They could've done it a few hours earlier.

Wonder if the new/old PM ran for the tele to watch the game, that’s if he is a passionate Queenslander that is and the boys on the field could have shown them what to do in the ALP caucus when the biff started.

John Newman · Jun 28, 2013

Interesting bit of scaremongering by Rudd today, see below:

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

According to Rudd, if Abbott becomes PM, it will be the start of 'Konfrontasi' with Indonesia again.

He is trying to raise the spectre of a confrontation between our two countries, this is an interesting quote of what Rudd said:

Mr Rudd said Australia needed "cool hands on the tiller" when dealing with Indonesian relations.

"What I am talking about is diplomatic conflict. But I am always wary about where diplomatic conflicts go," he said, before referring to the 1962-66 Indonesia-Malaysia conflict.

"Konfrontasi with Indonesia evolved over a set of words, and turned into something else.''

Pressed on the claim, Mr Rudd suggested the opposition's boats policy could lead to a naval showdown.

"So what happens on day one when Field Marshal Tony puts out the order to the captain of the naval frigate X to turn back a bunch of boats?''

"And you have got a naval frigate from the Indonesian navy on the other side of the equation?''

If that was ever the case I would hope that the Indonesian frigate was actually there on their side of the line to stop the boats in the first place.

The 'new' Kevin appears to have forgotten that it was his policy that has put us in the messy position were are now in, I shake my head in despair!

Maybe some, or all, of the nearly One Billion dollars that we give annually to Indonesia in aid (despite the fact it now has the 16th largest economy in the world) could be put towards the new fleet of PB's that are needed.

And talking of the timing and budged for the replacement PB's, even with all the crap that is going on in Canberra, does anyone know when the new DCP is due to be released?

t68 · Jun 28, 2013

John Newman said:
Interesting bit of scaremongering by Rudd today, see below:

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

According to Rudd, if Abbott becomes PM, it will be the start of 'Konfrontasi' with Indonesia again.

He is trying to raise the spectre of a confrontation between our two countries, this is an interesting quote of what Rudd said:

Mr Rudd said Australia needed "cool hands on the tiller" when dealing with Indonesian relations.

"What I am talking about is diplomatic conflict. But I am always wary about where diplomatic conflicts go," he said, before referring to the 1962-66 Indonesia-Malaysia conflict.

"Konfrontasi with Indonesia evolved over a set of words, and turned into something else.''

Pressed on the claim, Mr Rudd suggested the opposition's boats policy could lead to a naval showdown.

"So what happens on day one when Field Marshal Tony puts out the order to the captain of the naval frigate X to turn back a bunch of boats?''

"And you have got a naval frigate from the Indonesian navy on the other side of the equation?''

If that was ever the case I would hope that the Indonesian frigate was actually there on their side of the line to stop the boats in the first place.

The 'new' Kevin appears to have forgotten that it was his policy that has put us in the messy position were are now in, I shake my head in despair!

Maybe some, or all, of the nearly One Billion dollars that we give annually to Indonesia in aid (despite the fact it now has the 16th largest economy in the world) could be put towards the new fleet of PB's that are needed.

And talking of the timing and budged for the replacement PB's, even with all the crap that is going on in Canberra, does anyone know when the new DCP is due to be released?

Having never been in the Navy or Merchant marine and have no idea on SOLAS obligations (but reading up on them), can the RAN board SEIV after they leave Indonesian waters to inspect for seaworthy and turn them back and would the Indonesian navy have an obligation of escorting them once they are in international waters?

IMO | International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS), 1974

John Newman · Jun 28, 2013

t68 said:
Having never been in the Navy or Merchant marine and have no idea on SOLAS obligations (but reading up on them), can the RAN board SEIV after they leave Indonesian waters to inspect for seaworthy and turn them back and would the Indonesian navy have an obligation of escorting them once they are in international waters?

IMO | International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS), 1974

Like you, never having been in the Navy or Merchant Marine, I wouldn't know the rules that govern what the Indonesian Navy should or shouldn't do in the situation you mentioned.

But rather than getting to that point, what should the Indonesian Navy, Police or other government body be doing about the flood of overcrowded leaky that are leaving their ports?

I'm sure if a flood of overcrowded leaky boats were sailing regularly from Australian ports something would be done about it at the 'source' to prevent such a situation.

And that's the problem, it appears that it is our problem and not their problem, I'm all for respecting and having good relations with all of our neighbours, but the problem appears that the respect doesn't go the other way.

ASSAIL · Jun 28, 2013

In an interview with the ABC today, Alexander Downer stated that; "When we turned boats back, we took them to the edge of territorial waters, gave them enough food and fuel to return, I personally phoned the Foreign Minister to tell them what we had done and gave the position of the boat and his only request was that we keep the fact quiet so as not to cause trouble in Indonesia" I've paraphrased slightly but you get the picture.
Not too difficult and it worked.

John Newman · Jun 28, 2013

ASSAIL said:
In an interview with the ABC today, Alexander Downer stated that; "When we turned boats back, we took them to the edge of territorial waters, gave them enough food and fuel to return, I personally phoned the Foreign Minister to tell them what we had done and gave the position of the boat and his only request was that we keep the fact quiet so as not to cause trouble in Indonesia" I've paraphrased slightly but you get the picture.
Not too difficult and it worked.

And that's exactly the way it should be and probably will happen again, if in the future boats are turned back.

But I still maintain, and ask the question, why are they allowed to leave, in the volume that they are, without any restrictions on those boats departures from the Indonesian end? Why??

Could you imagine if it was the other way, if a flood of overcrowded leaky boats left our shores for Indonesia on a daily basis without us lifting a finger to stop them, seriously, could you imagine the outcry from Indonesia?

Just way too many double standards in this whole sorry mess for my liking.

Please don't get me wrong, I have nothing against 'genuine' refugees, in fact my Czech partner is a refugee from Communist Eastern Europe, her and her family had their businesses and property taken, her Grandfather was regularly under house arrest, etc, she had guns pointed at her threatening to shoot her and her friends by Russian soldiers when they were young too, they escaped across the border to Austria, but the difference is, they arrived here via the 'front' door, not the back door, in fact she is far more vocal about this issue than I am.

I also have close friends from Rwanda who survived the carnage in that country, but again they arrived via the front door, I could give other examples of other people I know too.

All I want to see is that we have control of our borders and have a say in who arrives and how they arrive too.

Volkodav · Jun 28, 2013

The only issue is they are already sabotaging their boats forcing a rescue. They will just head towards Australian waters and do something terminal to their already dodgy boat the second they see an Australian PB pop over the horizon, forcing the crew to take them on board or watch them die.

A better option is to negotiate with Indonesia to stop them putting to sea in the first place. It would likely be cheaper to detain them in Indonesia, at Australia's expense, than to detain and process them locally. Get Indonesia to make it an offence to attempt to enter Australia illegally and give them the resources and incentives to arrest and detain would be illegals.

alexsa · Jun 29, 2013

t68 said:
Having never been in the Navy or Merchant marine and have no idea on SOLAS obligations (but reading up on them), can the RAN board SEIV after they leave Indonesian waters to inspect for seaworthy and turn them back and would the Indonesian navy have an obligation of escorting them once they are in international waters?

IMO | International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS), 1974

It is in the last part of Chapter V of SOLAS and basically states that all ships are obligated to assist a ship in Distress.

This got royally screwed up when the Oceanic Viking (working for Customs) picked up survivors of a sinking vessel within the Indonesian Rescue area. The indonesians directed the ship to one of their ports (as they should) but the Sri Lankans refused to get off. So Kevin folded and promised them a special deal! Brilliant. The Sri Lankan government suggested the Oceanic Viking sail there and unload them (in hindsight that would have worked a treat as an example).

Needless to say the principal was not missed by the people smugglers.

StevoJH · Jun 29, 2013

Any legal reason why they could not have been evicted from Ocean Viking using force?

t68 · Jun 29, 2013

alexsa said:
It is in the last part of Chapter V of SOLAS and basically states that all ships are obligated to assist a ship in Distress.

This got royally screwed up when the Oceanic Viking (working for Customs) picked up survivors of a sinking vessel within the Indonesian Rescue area. The indonesians directed the ship to one of their ports (as they should) but the Sri Lankans refused to get off. So Kevin folded and promised them a special deal! Brilliant. The Sri Lankan government suggested the Oceanic Viking sail there and unload them (in hindsight that would have worked a treat as an example).

Needless to say the principal was not missed by the people smugglers.

But that’s only if they are in distress, can they legally board a vessel and declare it unsafe for transit and force it back to port and could we with our current resources even police it?

The thing is we are shafted either way we go about it, why would Indonesia stop the boats unless we pay, nothing in it for them and if they do they become Indonesia’s responsibility and cost money. I do wonder what the implications would be if we played hard ball and stopped all aid to Indonesia for their part in all this they are certainly not silly.

It’s a mess and the PM came out and said it he still believes he was right, but he now knows which way the wind is blowing in caucus just go to be a bit more smarter the way he goes about it and there lies the problem nothing changed in my book.

Volkodav · Jun 29, 2013

t68 said:
But that’s only if they are in distress, can they legally board a vessel and declare it unsafe for transit and force it back to port and could we with our current resources even police it?

The thing is we are shafted either way we go about it, why would Indonesia stop the boats unless we pay, nothing in it for them and if they do they become Indonesia’s responsibility and cost money. I do wonder what the implications would be if we played hard ball and stopped all aid to Indonesia for their part in all this they are certainly not silly.

It’s a mess and the PM came out and said it he still believes he was right, but he now knows which way the wind is blowing in caucus just go to be a bit more smarter the way he goes about it and there lies the problem nothing changed in my book.

Spot on, but if we offer to fund any actions they may decide to take to preserve life, prevent crime and protect the integrity of their own borders it would to every ones advantage. Gut feeling, it would be cheaper to subsidise or compensate Indonesia to stop the boats leaving their water than it would be for us to turn them back or maintain the status quo. The other factor is if they don't leave Indonesian waters they are less likely to get into trouble and therefore place lives at risk.

ADMk2 · Jul 1, 2013

Anyone notice this news, a few days back?

Raytheon Unveils Excalibur with Dual-Mode Guidance | Army & Land Forces News at DefenceTalk

Excalibur 1B is available in a 127mm variant, which would appear to perfectly suit RAN's requirement for an extended range guided munition for it's AWD and perhaps ANZAC / Future Frigates gunnery requirements...

Hs there been any notable interest from RAN in this?

rand0m · Jul 2, 2013

ASSAIL · Jul 2, 2013

Interesting that both the Defmin Smith and Foreign Affairs Min Carr are visiting ROK for 3 days next week and then on to Japan.
For those of us who believe in conspiracy theories, does this mean the there will be discussions re the Aegir BMT replacements for Success and Sirius?
John has commented on the RNZN thread re Norway's decision and I wonder if this may be used to fill the "valley of death" in shipbuilding with a meaty announcement pre election. $215m seems too good to be true.
Still. I would bet my left n..t that Cantabria class would be the go

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