Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[ASSAIL]

The minor war vessel fleet is back doing all the work, and getting screwed yet again, and sadly it could have been alot worse

Certainly agree with those sentiments but the chances of stumping up for 20x 2000tonne OCV's in the current climate were zero from either side of politics.

 

[justsomeaussie]

Certainly agree with those sentiments but the chances of stumping up for 20x 2000tonne OCV's in the current climate were zero from either side of politics.

I think we'll wait and see. this WP is pretty much the best it could be from this government and this government will not be staying on. David Johnston is a navy fan and will be the next minister for Defence.

Re the detainee problem doesn't the Cape have berths for 60 detainees? They'll end up being the mother ship holding all the refugees that the Armidalsa pick up.

 

[Todjaeger]

I think we'll wait and see. this WP is pretty much the best it could be from this government and this government will not be staying on. David Johnston is a navy fan and will be the next minister for Defence.

Re the detainee problem doesn't the Cape have berths for 60 detainees? They'll end up being the mother ship holding all the refugees that the Armidalsa pick up.

Even if the Cape-class does have room for 60 detainees, how many of the SIEV's had more than that aboard?

It appears that a number of the more (in)famous SIEV's, usually due to some sort of maritime accident or disaster had significantly more than 60 people aboard. Take SIEV 221 for instance, it was believed to have ~100 passengers prior to the accident.

For some of the larger SIEV's, then several Cape-class PB's might be required to safely offload the people seeking Ayslum in Australa. Or just design a larger vessel which allows for more space and flannel.

-Cheers

 

[gf0012-aust]

David Johnston is a navy fan and will be the next minister for Defence.

You'd have to question his judgement going on his statement about subs and planning....

 

[justsomeaussie]

Then couldn't your argument be used then again that the bigger ship might not have capacity. Where is the limit? Isn't the whole point of the Armidales and Cape is that they'll be working together. It's not a single ship solution.

 

[weegee]

All this talk about new patrol boats is moot anyway, When Abbott/Liberals get back in the asylum seekers and people smugglers will be so scared that no more boats will come! The ones that do will simply turned around so we may as well get a couple of ribs for patrol boats as no passengers will be picked up anyway haha

 

[icelord]

I think we'll wait and see. this WP is pretty much the best it could be from this government and this government will not be staying on. David Johnston is a navy fan and will be the next minister for Defence.

Re the detainee problem doesn't the Cape have berths for 60 detainees? They'll end up being the mother ship holding all the refugees that the Armidalsa pick up.

ACPB and customs only hold people for short periods onboard mainly at ashmore reef. The preference is for them to be on their own vessel but these are unreliable and prone to sink, so we hold them onboard until a major unit can take them for processing. This is normally Ocean Protector or Melville/Leeuwin, depending on who's in the area.
Both Bays and ACPB have a max number of people we can hold. When you say 60 berths, its perhaps means room for 60 to be accomadated, as neither boat gives berths for PII. We hold them on the upper decks, as they do not ever come internal of the vessel. OP provides more room then we could, but with a boat of 180 picked up at CI today, you can see how little another PB will help. The OCV was planned to have a flight deck, which automatically provides more room then we could ever give on a PB.

 

[rand0m]

IMHO the WP 2013 didn't appear to deviate from anything that we already knew or could foresee, more of a way of saying "we'll leave everything the way it is for the next Government to fix up"....

 

[Richo99]

Adroit as acpb replacement

I'll suggest it one more time & see if I get any bites.....adroit (gowind) as ACPB replacements - plenty of space on the helo deck for detainees.

And most importantly, supposed to be pretty cheap.

 

[icelord]

I'll suggest it one more time & see if I get any bites.....adroit (gowind) as ACPB replacements - plenty of space on the helo deck for detainees.

And most importantly, supposed to be pretty cheap.

Im a big fan of the Gowinds, especially after seeing them utilise the S-100 UAV. The language is ambiguous, as in there will be no Offshore Combat Vessel, does that mean an Offshore Patrol Vessel instead? or a Cape Class patrol boat from Austal with the same contractors as Armidales? i see the biggest reason to get rid of Armidales is to re write all the contracts with all stake holders, but somehow i see a Commodore signing off on a worse position for the navy, quitting and getting a new job with one of the companies...as what happened last time.

 

[hauritz]

I don't see how the building of new patrol boats will be any solution to the "valley of death" problem since the work will most likely go to Austal.

Maybe the two new supply ships would alleviate the problem although the minister's mention of leasing being a solution could see that ship building program pushed right back.

I would have thought one option that should have been considered is building a handful of OPVs to supplement the patrol boats. These ships would have provided work for the ship yards plus they are actually needed.

 

[Volkodav]

I don't see how the building of new patrol boats will be any solution to the "valley of death" problem since the work will most likely go to Austal.

Maybe the two new supply ships would alleviate the problem although the minister's mention of leasing being a solution could see that ship building program pushed right back.

I would have thought one option that should have been considered is building a handful of OPVs to supplement the patrol boats. These ships would have provided work for the ship yards plus they are actually needed.

Well common sense is sadly lacking in our political classes at the moment. The OCV as well as the LCH replacements are two projects that are easily justified for operational and industrial reasons yet both are delayed or missing from the white paper. The problem is Johnston while appearing more interested, perhaps even passionate about defence as Smith is also pretty clueless so we are screwed either way.

 

[icelord]

I don't see how the building of new patrol boats will be any solution to the "valley of death" problem since the work will most likely go to Austal.

Maybe the two new supply ships would alleviate the problem although the minister's mention of leasing being a solution could see that ship building program pushed right back.

I would have thought one option that should have been considered is building a handful of OPVs to supplement the patrol boats. These ships would have provided work for the ship yards plus they are actually needed.

The timelines dont match up. The OPVs would be needed in the next 2 years, while the gap in building at ASC is around 2018-2020. The supply ships are the same, success replacement needed now, sirius could hold off a little bit longer. The talk of replacing sirius is to cover how badly success really is and not point out much of a waste of money she has been for last 3 years

 

[justsomeaussie]

I'll suggest it one more time & see if I get any bites.....adroit (gowind) as ACPB replacements - plenty of space on the helo deck for detainees.

And most importantly, supposed to be pretty cheap.

Gowinds are 400 million a pop. For that price you could buy 80% of an ANZAC or a LCS. Think cheaper.

 

[Volkodav]

Gowinds are 400 million a pop. For that price you could buy 80% of an ANZAC or a LCS. Think cheaper.

A replacement pb is a waste of resources, it will suffer same issues as the ACPBs and preceding Fremantles. It will be too small, lack the required seaworthiness and durability and it will wear out before its time as all small craft forced to operate as larger vessels do.

Basically it is a false economy, ordering more of something we already know is not suitable for the job at hand.

 

[justsomeaussie]

Here is the valley of death for anyone interested.

Shipbuilding and maritime projects | The Strategist

 

[Richo99]

Gowinds are 400 million a pop. For that price you could buy 80% of an ANZAC or a LCS. Think cheaper.

There are a number of very different designs within the Gowind range with the Adroit at the bottom end - I think you may be quoting the price for one of the higher end models. There is no way an Adroit costs 80% of an Anzac.

 

[ASSAIL]

Im a big fan of the Gowinds, especially after seeing them utilise the S-100 UAV. The language is ambiguous, as in there will be no Offshore Combat Vessel, does that mean an Offshore Patrol Vessel instead? or a Cape Class patrol boat from Austal with the same contractors as Armidales? i see the biggest reason to get rid of Armidales is to re write all the contracts with all stake holders, but somehow i see a Commodore signing off on a worse position for the navy, quitting and getting a new job with one of the companies...as what happened last time.

You would think that navy would be gun shy about contracts with DMS/Austal, at least that's what those at the coal face would think.
I have a sneaky suspicion that govt thinks this arrangement is a solution they don't have to think about, manage or inspect and therefor they like it, besides the Capes will be based at DNB under the current/same arrangements.

The warfighting role of the OCV/Sea base protection role seems to have been wiped from the WP and we simply revert to a border protection platform and under this circumstance, more of the same is inevitable.

Given both of the above and the Libs proclivity for border protection, I reckon the Austal turnover has improvement in sight over the next few years at least.

 

[icelord]

There are a number of very different designs within the Gowind range with the Adroit at the bottom end - I think you may be quoting the price for one of the higher end models. There is no way an Adroit costs 80% of an Anzac.

Agree, the Adroit is the lower scale of the Gowind family, perhaps the price tag is for the 2000t multi-mission corvette not the 1000t soverign enforecment model(adroit) currently on loan to the french navy for trials.
The adroit is more to the OPV level, as well as spanish BAM. The dutch Holland class would be more OCV which is a shame, as its a pretty sweet boat...sigh, next time.

 

[justsomeaussie]

There are a number of very different designs within the Gowind range with the Adroit at the bottom end - I think you may be quoting the price for one of the higher end models. There is no way an Adroit costs 80% of an Anzac.

1. Indonesia's PKR 10514 Sigma-class by Damen Schelde Shipbuilding of the Netherlands and PT PAL of Indonesia: US$220 million for 1 unit (signed June 2012);
2. South Korea's FFX-1 Incheon-class by Hyundai Heavy Industries (HHI): US$232 million for the 1st unit, although HHI contract for the hull only was W140 billion (US$106.5 million) (signed December 2008);
3. Thailand's new frigate program based on Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (DSME) DW-3000H: B13 billion (US$442 million) for 1 unit;
4. Malaysia's SGPV LCS Gowind-class by DCNS of France and Boustead Heavy Industries of Malaysia: MYR1.5 billion (US$467 million) each (signed December 2011);