F-X deal is back on. Brazil back in action

[B3LA]

Fx-3 ?

It seems not much happens in Brazil right now, but that might well be accordingly to plan.
Lula committed himself heavily for the French alternative, even though few other interest
groups in Brazil saw the beauty of his vision. He would have met fierce opposition if he
went ahead, so he is better off if he just lets it fizzle out. That way no one can say that he
backed down on his promise to Sarkozy.

However, with Lula gone, it will be a completely open game once again.
Further, if they choose to start up FX-3, new suitors may apply.

Elections in October.


France frets over fighter sale to Brazil | Reuters

 

[fretburner]

And with the RAAF being impressed by the Blk2 Super Hornet, Boeing might win this contest with Lula gone

 

[swerve]

Highly unlikely. The Super Hornet was ranked last of the three contenders on industrial & political criteria. Industry wants Gripen NG, but would settle for Rafale. Super Hornet can't meet Brazil's technology transfer & offset criteria.

These criteria did not apply to the RAAF F-18F selection.

 

[Aussie Digger]

These criteria did not apply to the RAAF F-18F selection.

Indeed. RAAF wanted a fighter as soon as possible to replace the F-111, ie: it had to be in a full rate production line.

This fighter had to offer 5th generation capabilities (AESA radar, LO measures, advanced targetting capabilities and weapons) and had to be operable with a US military service without modification and provide a high level of capability across most fighter taskings.

The fighter had to fit in and be interoperable with our existing force, yet still offer a significant capability improvement over our HUG Bugs.

Furthermore, the selected manufacturer and "parent" military service had to offer a substantial training and support package and a viable, funded upgrade plan.

In reality, there was only one current choice that could meet all these requirements for RAAF.

 

[Vivendi]

The Defense Ministry will in the coming days, an explanatory memorandum to President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva in which both indicate a clear favorite in the purchase of fighter jets to fleet renewal of the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) as minimum requirements for the contract to billionaire is completed.

One of these requirements binding on the signing of the contract's initial purchase of 36 jets to the order of 12 simultaneous cargo KC-390, Embraer, the winner of the competition. "We want the signature at the same time," said Minister Nelson Jobim to Valor.

The minister said he has written 76 pages of explanatory memorandum on the acquisition, which has an estimated cost of about $ 6 billion. The text will be released soon after handed over to President Lula and then discussed by the Council of National Defense. And later again for the FAB and the Ministry of Finance, to the stage of contract negotiation.

Are in dispute the French fighter Rafale from Dassault, the Swedish Gripen NG, Saab, and the F-18, manufactured by American Boeing. The preference of the French jet seems clear in Brasilia. Jobim said that the only important for Brazil, "if the French jet" is that the freighter Embraer may enter the European market and compete in the replacement of the fleet of C-130 Hercules, the American Lockheed.
According to Jobim, exists in a world fleet 300-400 freighters Hercules, who will need to be replaced. Then comes the chance for the KC-190, Embraer, who will be flying from 2014. The Brazilian government is also aware of the probable order of the Rafale by UAE. If the acquisition is confirmed, Brazil could bargain for a package set that lowers the price of each jet.

Jobim denied that France has made a final bid to secure the sale of Rafale during the meeting of President Nicolas Sarkozy with President Lula in Madrid last week, contradicting information published by the French press. The minister thinks it can complete the negotiation of the purchase contract before the transfer of power in January, signaling that can calm the unrest among the French, who have lost packages in some countries when the new governor took office. A spokesman said that Sarkozy left the meeting with Lula with the feeling that it will soon be confirmed the preference for the Rafale.

Jobim vincula compra de caças a venda simultânea de cargueiros - Defesa Brasil

IF the above report is true then this seems quite settled. Sarko has already said he would be happy to buy 12 KC-390 if Lula buys Rafale.

Sweden could in theory buy the KC-390 as well, however probably not 12 of them.

 

[Sea Toby]

I agree, it appears Brazil will buy Rafales, just to get the first European order of KC-390s. Once that floodgate is open, the chances for more orders from other nations improves considerably... Embraer is correct about future orders for C-130 Hercules replacements too...

If Embraer can build a same size and lift jet transport which costs less to operate and buy, sales will surely be forthcoming...

Other aircraft manufacturers have noticed this opportunity as well. Those that can deliver the best aircraft and sell them abroad will lead the pack...

From the drawings I have seen, it appears Embraer will have a winner with the KC-390.

 

[Brazil]

My first post!

Lula da Silva prefer the Rafale. its not a new for us. Rafale is a clear favorite.

Rafale will win... it is the true...



[ ]'s

 

[B3LA]

Gentlemen, start your engines !

Looks like its going to be a "FX-2A" at least, if not an "FX-3".

Lula had painted himself into a corner, but obviously couldn't get
the Rafale for the price he was willing to pay. Strategic trade or not.

Let's see how Rousseff will play her cards.



Exclusive: Rousseff starting over in Brazil jets tender | Top News | Reuters

 

[RobWilliams]

Thread revival.

Interestingly, the issue with Boeing about ToT is something they've been addressing recently by going all out and pretty much guaranteed full ToT which will turn things about face. After all, wasn't the biggest drawback of the F/A-18 the uncertainty of it's tech transfer?

In a clear sign of Washington's desire to win the lucrative contract, Panetta said: “This offer, which has the strong support of the US Congress, contains an unprecedented advanced technology sharing that is reserved for only our closest allies and partners.”

Brazil to get tech transfer if it buys US jets: Panetta | Aviation & Air Force News at DefenceTalk

Then throwing in Saabs latest antics by buying a 15% stake of Akaer aerospace which already has close ties with Saab in regards to the Gripen

Akaer is an engineering company that specializes in the development of aero-structures and management of turnkey aerospace and defense projects. In 2009, Saab contracted it to design components for its Gripen fighter, a lightweight, single-engine fighter jet flown by six countries. Akaer's work on the Gripen focused on the aircraft's rear fuselage, mid- fuselage and wing, including main landing gear doors.

Engineers from Akaer were sent to Sweden for on-the-job training. In 2010, Akaer facilities in Brazil were prepared and certified for work related to the Gripen.

Sweden

Seems like the Gripen isn't as much of an outsider as some might think due to the already existing industry experience, the choice made will be an interesting one.

Personally, I see them going for the Rafale.

 

[Haavarla]

What else is Boeing and Panetta going to say?
US never exported anyting like this Tender deal to Brazil before, they lost out to MMRCA, fine they leared their lesson.
All i really see is big words here,
"In a clear sign of Washington's desire to win the lucrative contract, Panetta said: “This offer, which has the strong support of the US Congress, contains an unprecedented advanced technology sharing that is reserved for only our closest allies and partners.”

Why do i have this feeling this isn't going to help much in this Tender..?
Some of this i blame US foreign neglected policy twards the whole South-America region, Brazil included.
US have a lot to catch up here.

The SH with its system are great. But the SH with its sensor package is too little and too late.
You can use makeup and dress up a pig.. its still a pig.

I agree, i think eighter Gripen or Rafale, if not Rafale become too expensive for Brazil..

 

[fretburner]

I guess this competition is the Super Hornet's last hurrah?

I'm not so sure why the USN don't want these proposed Super Hornet updates when they know the F-35C is delayed. Maybe they find it rather unnecessary?

For Brazil though, with all these upgrades available to them -- the Super Hornet might just pull off a surprise: Link 1 Link 2

Proven AESA radar, DEWS and Sensor Fusion, 11 x 19in Display, Scan Eagle carry, wide assortment of weapons, and probably a whole lot cheaper than the Rafale.

 

[Haavarla]

I sorry, its kind of difficult to follow this F-X Tender.
Will Brazil offer a new Tender or does the last Short Listed(Gripen, Rafale & SH) still stand?

It seems the units figures they had calculated from the very first Tender, has shrunk somewhat. But its understandeble consider the price and inflation increase..

 

[RobWilliams]

Personally, I'm leaning more to the Gripen than the Rafale or SH, ending up as Gripen > Rafale > SH

The Gripen because Saab have already made a fairly hefty investment in Brazils aerospace industry, infact Akaer is already contracted to make components of the Gripen for Saab.

Saab and Akaer have been partner since 2007. In October 2009 an agreement was signed between Akaer and Saab regarding Akaer participation in the Gripen NG development program. The purpose of the agreement was to lay the foundations for good co-operation between the two companies and to support Saab's development and production for the rear fuselage, mid fuselage and wing including main landing gear doors for Gripen NG. Immediately after the agreement signature, a team of Brazilian engineers from Akaer were stationed inSweden to acquaint themselves with the NG project to participate in the development and to learn about Saab's requirements and methods in the form of technology transfer through "on the job training".

Saab expands co-operation with Akaer in Brazil

Indiginous build is a big thing for Brazil and i'm not sure that either the US/France has the industry links that Saab has in regards to fighter development so if Brazil did want more than the 36 in the tender, the potential for builds in Brazil is much higher than the other 2. Not to mention that it does favour the smaller carrier compared to the other 2.

EDIT: Forgot to include the link, the decision is postponed until 2013 anyway, which isn't surprising.

http://www.defencetalk.com/brazil-to-delay-jet-decision-until-2013-no-favorite-44846/

The early favorite was the Rafale, but Brasilia finds it too expensive and has been pressing for a better price. Paris has offered full technology transfers in its bid to win the contract.

Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet is cheaper, but Brazilian officials are wary of Washington’s possible use of technology restrictions.

Doesn't seem to be any particular problems with the Gripen in comparison, but even then I still see them going for the Gripen/Rafale over the SH.

Not forgetting that unlike the US, Dassault and Saab don't have anything different to their aircraft in the pipeline to eventually replace them so Brazil may interpret that to mean that they'll focus more on updating their examples compared to the SH.

 

[fretburner]

Not forgetting that unlike the US, Dassault and Saab don't have anything different to their aircraft in the pipeline to eventually replace them so Brazil may interpret that to mean that they'll focus more on updating their examples compared to the SH.

I believe that by the time a Block 4/5 Super Hornet is in service, Dassault and Saab would have already been developing a successor to the Rafale and Gripen. Also, I think the US have had a more successful model of doing upgrades to their aircrafts than the French and Swedes. The Block 60 F-16 is still pretty lethal today. Not sure if the latest upgrade of the Mirage is as lethal.

 

[macman]

I believe that by the time a Block 4/5 Super Hornet is in service, Dassault and Saab would have already been developing a successor to the Rafale and Gripen. Also, I think the US have had a more successful model of doing upgrades to their aircrafts than the French and Swedes. The Block 60 F-16 is still pretty lethal today. Not sure if the latest upgrade of the Mirage is as lethal.

Saab have already offered a couple of different upgrade paths for the Gripen in tenders - a larger, more powerful version for the Indian tender, & a stealth version involving joint-development offsets for the Korean tender.

Good choice for Brazil if they take it - the base Gripen's ability to operate from roads or almost any kind of rough landing area, plus it's low operating costs without sacrificing capability make it an excellent, multirole addition to almost any airforce, & a great design to build upon.

 

[the concerned]

With Sweden deciding to go it alone with development costs and the Swiss now sticking with their decision i'd say the gripen must be the front runner.I also think ex Uae mirages might come in somewhere say in exchange for some brazilian products like mpa's or transports.

 

[swerve]

If Brazil wants ex-UAE (or ex-Qatar) Mirages it'd be a small number (e.g. the dozen or so Qatar has) as a stopgap. Buying the entire UAE fleet of 60 or so would be instead of buying Rafale/Gripen/F-18E in the near future, not in addition to.

 

[the concerned]

Isn't Brazil ultimatly requiring 120 aircraft, so could a joint deal with the Uae and France for rafales /mirages be a possibility.

 

[swerve]

Doesn't compute. Brazil ultimately wants up to 120 aircraft to replace its entire jet combat fleet - but that's tied in to industrial requirements. If Brazil just wanted an off-the shelf replacement for its worn-out Mirage 2000s & modernised F-5Es, the UAE Mirage 2000-9 fleet would do - but it doesn't. It wants to boost its aircraft industry. Where is the local work share in buying 60 second hand aircraft? Where is the technology transfer?

There is no possibility of a Brazilian purchase of both the UAE M2K-9s & Rafales. It would cost too much.The budget is being squeezed. It's either/or. Buying all those M2K-9s would kill the FX-2 project, because it would take the entire initial FX-2 budget, & push the need for a new type far into the future.

All the money & effort invested by industry would be wasted. Capabilities worked on for FX-2 would be lost. A completely new evaluation would have to begin, years in the future.

Remember: NO EXTRA MONEY. And that applies to the operating as well as the capital budget.

FYI, barter trade makes sense only when you're short of foreign exchange but are flush with local currency for buying from domestic suppliers. This is not the situation in Brazil. The budget is under pressure, not the balance of payments.

 

[Dodger67]

Personally, I'm leaning more to the Gripen than the Rafale or SH, ending up as Gripen > Rafale > SH

The Gripen because Saab have already made a fairly hefty investment in Brazils aerospace industry, infact Akaer is already contracted to make components of the Gripen for Saab.



Saab expands co-operation with Akaer in Brazil

Indiginous build is a big thing for Brazil and i'm not sure that either the US/France has the industry links that Saab has in regards to fighter development so if Brazil did want more than the 36 in the tender, the potential for builds in Brazil is much higher than the other 2. Not to mention that it does favour the smaller carrier compared to the other 2.

EDIT: Forgot to include the link, the decision is postponed until 2013 anyway, which isn't surprising.

Brazil to delay jet decision until 2013, no favorite | Aviation & Air Force News at DefenceTalk



Doesn't seem to be any particular problems with the Gripen in comparison, but even then I still see them going for the Gripen/Rafale over the SH.

Not forgetting that unlike the US, Dassault and Saab don't have anything different to their aircraft in the pipeline to eventually replace them so Brazil may interpret that to mean that they'll focus more on updating their examples compared to the SH.

Add to that a linkage with South Africa and the Gripen looks even more attractive. SAAB is fairly heavily invested in SA. Major Gripen components are already manufactured in SA. SA and Brazil have missile co-production deals in place and SA also manufactures other weapons suitable for Gripen.