The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
There are pros and cons to the proposed centralised system, but I'm not convinced that it is a good idea on a warship.
Pros:
  • Easy upgrades and is easily scalable. As processing power increases or increased power is desired, it is a matter of adding additional processing unit to the rack or replacing units with new technology. Likewise, the software being run is more easily upgraded to a new version. While it is easy to concentrate on the processing power of the blade servers, electrical and I/O connections are more difficult to upgrade later.
  • More reliable. If you have redundant processing units (or even whole racks), utilisation can be switched instantly in the event of failure. Hopefully users won't even notice an interruption.
  • Easier maintenance. At sea, a faulty unit could be disconnected and the workload redistributed and the unit replaced easily and quickly in port. The virtualized system is easily monitored for failures.
  • Clients (operator consoles) can be generic or flexible, meaning the functionality of the console can change according to operational, upgrade or maintenance requirements.
  • Data processing can produce lots of heat, and having all this heat produced at a single location makes it easier to manage.
Cons:
  • It will be surprisingly complex to develop and implement, and it will require careful supervision and management in service. Don't think that it will be a matter of flipping a switch on/off, because with data constantly in motion and loads changing from moment to moment, it is a dynamic system that will change.
  • Because it is shared system it will require careful communication and co-ordination across all users, departments and disciplines to avoid software or resource conflicts.
  • It is a single point of failure. The failure not only could be physical (power and data connections, combat damage, operator error) but virtual (bugs, software clashes, operator error, security breaches) as well. If the central server goes down, you'll be left with nothing. No sensors, no weapons, no data links and probably only local communications. All situational information gathered is no longer available and can no longer be displayed.
  • Do you also virtualize other control systems? What about engineering or environmental systems? Navigation? What happens if these go down as well?
  • It is a single point of failure. This is such a crucial point I think it deserves a second entry.

The fact that it isn't likely to fail totally because of system redundancies, doesn't mean it can't/won't. A search will show plenty of examples of bank systems breaking down.
I would also be careful of holding banks up as a good example. You'd be surprised at how hacked together their systems are, given the amount of legacy/ancient software and processes that have to be accommodated!
I'd be wary of tying in the failures of the banking *software* to the problems posed by a warship - that's not even oranges and apples, it's *eggs* and apples.

The thing that they're getting from the hardware is (from what I can see) is the very resilient and failure tolerant nature of the servers used in banking and share dealing. By virtualising large chunks of system features and running it off a blade chassis, you can very easily (and if you wish, automatically) load balance. Run it on VM ware and you can drag and drop a running application from one blade to another while it's still processing real time requests.

The servers themselves are self contained packaged units that can be configured to automatically build themselves as a particular type of server if inserted in a particular slot, meaning that even the delivery guy from FedEx could effectively replace and begin building a new server. That means if you get a hardware failure which would otherwise take hours to fix, the application that was running on it can fail over to a completely new node and the only hint the users get is when someone walks past them with an antistatic bag with a new blade in it.

I don't think it's adding so much in terms of complexity as adding in layers of resilience. Hang a lot of the critical systems off a controlled area network and you get a lot of resilience added in terms of "oh, cable run cut someplace, no trouble, there's still a network running, that packet I tagged for the missile system will get there anyway"

You also get some possibilities for virtual backup workstations - just sign in as an engineer ID and voila, you're running the engines, doesn't matter where in the ship you are.

Hell, you can cluster the servers across two widely separated data enclosures, missile comes through the window and clears out the CIC, the surviving node takes over, surviving crew shift ops to other spaces and the ship continues to operate, albeit at a lowered effectiveness.

What it's doing is offering higher uptimes, better and more graceful degradation, lower parts count, less expertise required for fixing stuff (I've swapped an entire motherboard on a racked server of a traditional configuration and it wasn't a lot of fun when folk were getting excitable, an entire blade could have been popped out in under a minute)

Yes stuff can go wrong but I think the gist of what they're talking about is a smart thing to do.
 
Maintenance and upgrades gets even better if COTS hardware and hypervisor solutions are adopted, or at least used as a basis of mild development. Prepare for the project to be screwed up with a bespoke (AKA incompatible with everything else) solution.
The underlying hardware becomes largely irrelevant, changed and upgraded as technology advances or availability becomes an issue.
The system can easily be scaled to suit required processing needs, x units for patrol boats and 20x units for a destroyer, but the underlying system is the same for operational and training purposes. It should be more flexible, more customisable and cheaper.

My concerns were if the proposed system has a single node in a "secure server compartment". Under such a vulnerable arrangement a rack fire would take out sensors, weapons, communications, navigation, engineering and environmental systems. Now I would hope many of these systems would have some kind of minimal local alternative, and hopefully they wouldn't be so foolish as to have a single node.
Re-reading the article again has re-assured me that perhaps they didn't mean that, and that my initial interpretation was incorrect.

A cluster of several (3 or more) nodes dispersed through the ship would create a robust system that could gracefully degrade without losing full functionality.
But that is just for the physical risks, as the software itself now becomes a cross system issue. If it is secure and stable all the better, but...

Of course our positive reaction to what the system promises will come up against what a military/government can deliver, and there will be plenty of opportunities for the development to turn into a full blown fiasco.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
well, we'll see - most of the current stuff is running windows 2000 in a cut down and secured version - Windows for Warships as I understand it. There's scope to screw anything up anyway - I watched with some puzzlement as one firm installed two domain controllers into the same rack, sharing one disk array - it was like they'd had some genius revelation about installing as many single points of failure as they could...

We'll see - it's an interesting direction they're taking and I can see a lot of scope for some really useful steps regarding redundancy and reliability. Given there's not a lot of data being stored (comparatively) I'm guessing you could hang a lot of SSD's in the configuration, which is less power, less heat and less likely to fail.

If they pilot a lot of this through Type 23 (which seems sensible) then we might end up with a hardware neutral, scalable and redundant, fault tolerant system which will be tolerably mature by the time Type 26 comes into service and which could easily be ported out to whatever becomes MHPC and chucked back into Type 45.

Fingers crossed eh?
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
well, we'll see - most of the current stuff is running windows 2000 in a cut down and secured version - Windows for Warships as I understand it. There's scope to screw anything up anyway - I watched with some puzzlement as one firm installed two domain controllers into the same rack, sharing one disk array - it was like they'd had some genius revelation about installing as many single points of failure as they could...
Aha, something I can actually comment on from first hand experience!

When I went aboard Dragon in Cardiff in January, the route from the flight deck up towards the bow took us through the ops room.

Anywho, the Type 45's run Windows XP Professional. At least, that's what I saw when I was aboard.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
HMS Duncan slipped her moorings near Glasgow, for the 1st time today & set sail for shipyard proving trials.

HMS Duncan - D37 - Military Pictures - Air Force Army Navy Missiles Defense


SA
Good to see, let's get all these puppies into service!

This is something I got pointed out to me the other day, the UK - currently - has only 5 active SSNs, the 5 T-boats Talent, Tireless, Torbay, Trenchant + Triumph as Astute - although part of the fleet - isn't due to be operational until next year.

Surprising really, not helped by the fact that Ambush is going to be delayed in Barrow due to BAE not being up to scratch on their nuclear safety procedures.
 

USAF77

Banned Member
Wow! She is a Beauty.
HMS Duncan slipped her moorings near Glasgow, for the 1st time today & set sail for shipyard proving trials.

HMS Duncan - D37 - Military Pictures - Air Force Army Navy Missiles Defense
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Looking forward to Oct 3rd

UK issues urgent call for maritime UAS deal

The UK Ministry of Defence was due to receive responses by 28 August from contractors interested in bidding for a maritime unmanned air system deal worth £40 million ($63 million).

Dubbed "MarUAS", the project seeks a commercial off-the-shelf design capable of meeting an urgent operational requirement to deliver persistent intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) cover when deployed from a naval vessel.

To be provided as a contractor-owned, contractor-operated system, the UAS should have a loiter time of 8h while operating 111km (60nm) from its launch platform, the UK's Defence Equipment and Support (DE&S) organisation says.
Sadly, this would appear to make navalised FireShadow less likely to happen. Considering the ISR component of FireShadow would be done by this UAS the only trick it has up it's sleeve is the attack component. Something which could easily (given the Oto 127/64 performance) be argued as something which isn't needed.

Not that - according to MBDA figures - it would actually fit the criteria. With a loiter time of ~6 hours and a range of ~100km, it doesn't match the requirements.

Bit sad really, thought that a 'SeaShadow' would be a handy trick up the RN sleeve, especially with a VL capability.

Full requirements are going to be released October 3rd, so it'll be pretty clear if SeaShadow could or couldn't be an actual contender, but I have my doubts.

There was talk about a rotary system a few months ago, anyone know what happened to that?
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I don't think there's an overlap with SkyShadow vs ScanEagle (which seems to be the system that's almost certain to be selected)

ScanEagle is very easy to deploy and while the integration of the masts for the control of the thing has to be managed carefully, it's a neat system.

I'm wondering why this is UOR and wonder if it's in fact aimed at a maybe two or three systems to round out the capabilities for some ships not currently equipped with helos ? It'd fit nicely onto a River for instance ? ScanEagle was tested on a Type 23 recently and tests went well - however, in that installation, launch and recovery was from the helicopter pad and you can't launch or recover a helicopter while you're rigged to laucnh and recover ScanEagle - reports were pretty positive however, nice cheap system, way less costly to get into the air than a Wildcat for routine recon.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
I don't think there's an overlap with SkyShadow vs ScanEagle (which seems to be the system that's almost certain to be selected)

ScanEagle is very easy to deploy and while the integration of the masts for the control of the thing has to be managed carefully, it's a neat system.

I'm wondering why this is UOR and wonder if it's in fact aimed at a maybe two or three systems to round out the capabilities for some ships not currently equipped with helos ? It'd fit nicely onto a River for instance ? ScanEagle was tested on a Type 23 recently and tests went well - however, in that installation, launch and recovery was from the helicopter pad and you can't launch or recover a helicopter while you're rigged to laucnh and recover ScanEagle - reports were pretty positive however, nice cheap system, way less costly to get into the air than a Wildcat for routine recon.
I only thought there was some sort of overlap because whilst SeaShadow is loitering it could do some basic recce duties before doing some mud moving. Obv it's not going to be as comprehensive as what ScanEagle could do, but still it does provide it in a limited capacity.

I don't see launching being a problem, it could - potentially - be launched from one of the superstructure mission bays couldn't it? They are fairly spaceous + designed to carry that sort of kit so it'd just be the recovery to tie up the flight deck.

Doubt it'll fit on ships that don't have aviation facilities (or at least, a flight deck), but of course that depends on ease of recovery, which - for ScanEagle - i'm not actually sure what that is.

Found the rotary UAS article from FlightGlobal

UK to trial rotary-wing UAS for navy applications

The UK Ministry of Defence plans to complete a capability concept demonstrator (CCD) programme by March 2015 to investigate the utility of equipping the Royal Navy with a rotary-wing unmanned air system (RWUAS) post-2020

Outlining its interest, in a 24 July contract notification, the MoD says: "Head of Capability Above Water has a requirement to understand whether a multi-role RWUAS can provide utility in the mine countermeasures, hydrography and meteorology, offensive surface warfare and general situational awareness capability areas." Its planned demonstration "will inform future maritime UAS requirements, potentially leading to an acquisition programme in the second decade", it adds.
So it appears that - potentially - it could be ScanEagle for the Type 26 and possibly a rotary UAS for OPVs, MHPC + other patrol vessels.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Got another set of answers from an MOD FOI request, however this time it is a paper copy so I can't attach it, unless anyone would be particularly interested in me scanning it in?

But there's little to no point, nothing much really new here. It's just the usual default answers about anything particular.

Asked about CEC, got the usual "not in the core budget" line + the following

We review the capabilities of all our vessels periodically and while we do not currently have any projects within our approved and funded programme, we are investigating oppertunities to improve the weapon systems carried by the Type 45 Destroyers
Hopefully small and incremental improvements, relatively risk free.

Then I asked about the NSM, just off the cuff, and here's the reply

The Joint Strike Missile is a Norwegian missile system and it is unclear yet whether it will be fitted to any JSF; currently the UK does not plan to procure this system
meaning that the UK won't have an airbourne ASW munition launched from the F-35B. Whilst we will have the Sea Skua from the Wildcats etc, won't have the same effect.

Personally, I reckon the UK will be missing a trick without it. Something with more punch and reach than a Sea Skua but not a massive heavy hitter like a Spearfish.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
Well, as far as I know work is still progressing on SPEAR 3 for fast jets, isn't it? I believe the requirements were for a 120-kilometre range missile with a 100-kilogram warhead, which would make it significantly larger than the planned FASGW-H, which is replacing the Sea Skua and should provide much longer range than Skua while retaining the same warhead and overall size.

The SPEAR 3 requirements certainly don't look as though they're going to match the capabilities of larger anti-ship missiles like NSM but it does seem as though it will fit that "middle ground" niche. In addition to that, a weapon such as JSOW-ER could potentially provide a significant anti-ship capability at (I think) a cheaper cost to something like NSM, and integration with the F-35 shouldn't be an issue as the US and some other partner nations like Australia will be fielding the weapon on their platforms too. Should the RN be interested in JSOW I think they'd have minimal trouble getting it into service with the F-35 fleet.

Between these weapons and enhanced Brimstone (which I believe is SPEAR 2?), I think the RN should be able to put forward a pretty formidable selection of air-launched anti-surface weapons if they need to. Unless SPEAR 3 has been cancelled or put on the back burner, or I've gotten the details of it wrong, happy to stand corrected if that's the case.
 

kev 99

Member
Well, as far as I know work is still progressing on SPEAR 3 for fast jets, isn't it? I believe the requirements were for a 120-kilometre range missile with a 100-kilogram warhead, which would make it significantly larger than the planned FASGW-H, which is replacing the Sea Skua and should provide much longer range than Skua while retaining the same warhead and overall size.

The SPEAR 3 requirements certainly don't look as though they're going to match the capabilities of larger anti-ship missiles like NSM but it does seem as though it will fit that "middle ground" niche. In addition to that, a weapon such as JSOW-ER could potentially provide a significant anti-ship capability at (I think) a cheaper cost to something like NSM, and integration with the F-35 shouldn't be an issue as the US and some other partner nations like Australia will be fielding the weapon on their platforms too. Should the RN be interested in JSOW I think they'd have minimal trouble getting it into service with the F-35 fleet.

Between these weapons and enhanced Brimstone (which I believe is SPEAR 2?), I think the RN should be able to put forward a pretty formidable selection of air-launched anti-surface weapons if they need to. Unless SPEAR 3 has been cancelled or put on the back burner, or I've gotten the details of it wrong, happy to stand corrected if that's the case.
Brimstone is SPEAR capability 2.

I've seen SPEAR capability 3 press that definitely identifies it as having an anti shipping role.

Can't see a snowball's chance in hell of the MOD buying JSOW though.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Well, as far as I know work is still progressing on SPEAR 3 for fast jets, isn't it? I believe the requirements were for a 120-kilometre range missile with a 100-kilogram warhead, which would make it significantly larger than the planned FASGW-H, which is replacing the Sea Skua and should provide much longer range than Skua while retaining the same warhead and overall size.

The SPEAR 3 requirements certainly don't look as though they're going to match the capabilities of larger anti-ship missiles like NSM but it does seem as though it will fit that "middle ground" niche. In addition to that, a weapon such as JSOW-ER could potentially provide a significant anti-ship capability at (I think) a cheaper cost to something like NSM, and integration with the F-35 shouldn't be an issue as the US and some other partner nations like Australia will be fielding the weapon on their platforms too. Should the RN be interested in JSOW I think they'd have minimal trouble getting it into service with the F-35 fleet.

Between these weapons and enhanced Brimstone (which I believe is SPEAR 2?), I think the RN should be able to put forward a pretty formidable selection of air-launched anti-surface weapons if they need to. Unless SPEAR 3 has been cancelled or put on the back burner, or I've gotten the details of it wrong, happy to stand corrected if that's the case.
Ah, well the reason I didn't mention SPEAR 3 was because I forgot about SPEAR 3 :p:

According to MBDA [1], the total weight of the missile is ~100kg, haven't managed to find anything from them about range but the figure i'm seeing thrown around is ~100km.

I've not been able to find much info in regards to the size of the warhead, a fleeting reference on Wiki under "Brimstone" does seem to corroborate your figures, 100kg warhead w/~120km range [2]

But under further inspection, the links provided as sources don't specifically mention them. The FlightGlobal link [3] just says it's in the "100kg weapon catagory" rather than specifically saying it's the warhead size. I suspect it's the total weight as this would back up the figure from MBDA. Then the AviationWeek link [4] for me doesn't actually work, it just says "No articles to display" so can't confirm/deny the 120km figure.

Of course, most of the info about it is fairly general anyway. But still, IIRC MBDA are planning for 4 SPEAR 3 + 1 Meteor per weapons bay. Then considering munitions like StormShadow, the F-35B on a QE class should be able to present a formidable array of air-to-surface weapons.

[1] MBDA - e-catalogue
[2] Brimstone (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[3] BAE to test MBDA's new Brimstone variant with Tornado GR4
[4] http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/SPEAR061109.xml
 

Blackshoe

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Asked about CEC, got the usual "not in the core budget" line
Having operated CEC, and from some of the discussions on this board, if the MoD is delaying acquiring it because they have Link-16, then all the capabilities of CEC and what it brings to the fight are not being adequately explained (or are being adequately explained but are being ignored).

Sadly, though, most people seem to think CEC is nothing but another Link (I see that a lot in the USN, as well).
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
It turns up periodically, with the question "well, we have Link 11 or 22, what's the biggy?" and I suspect you're right - they may just not understand what a game changer it is.

Of all the systems they could fit to the 45's and 26's that could save lives, this is about the biggest in my opinion.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
Then I asked about the NSM, just off the cuff, and here's the reply:

The Joint Strike Missile is a Norwegian missile system and it is unclear yet whether it will be fitted to any JSF; currently the UK does not plan to procure this system
Sorry for the OT but according to the Norwegian government the JSM will be fitted to the Norwegian JSF; thus the statement above is wrong (unless it was given before June 15).

Norway and the USA agree to collaborate on integration of Joint Strike Missile (JSM) on F-35 - Kongsberg Gruppen
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Having operated CEC, and from some of the discussions on this board, if the MoD is delaying acquiring it because they have Link-16, then all the capabilities of CEC and what it brings to the fight are not being adequately explained (or are being adequately explained but are being ignored).

Sadly, though, most people seem to think CEC is nothing but another Link (I see that a lot in the USN, as well).
I assume that CEC can talk to the T45 CMS in the same way as between Aegis ships? If it can, there can be no rationale for delaying the purchase.
The MoD surely understands that the days of the RN acting alone are over and that the T45 force enabler (CEC) is needed NOW.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I assume that CEC can talk to the T45 CMS in the same way as between Aegis ships? If it can, there can be no rationale for delaying the purchase.
The MoD surely understands that the days of the RN acting alone are over and that the T45 force enabler (CEC) is needed NOW.
Fitting CEC to the T45 is no cheap matter. The Brits would have to pay for development of CEC software specific for the T45 radars since these are not USN standard. Since CEC doesn’t share track information it shares all radar dwells it needs software that weights each radar type for accuracy when it uses these dwells to determine tracks.
 
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