Shotguns still in widespread military service ?

[Eeshaan]

Was wondering, are shotguns still in widespread service since the Vietnam era as frontline weapons in urban/jungle/close-combat environments ? Or are they now primarily civilian defence/law enforcement weapons ?

With heavy caliber rapid fire weapons like the AK-74SU & UMP-45 and Assault rifles like M4A1 & bullpup weapons getting more compact these days, is the shotgun no longer the weapon of choice for close quarters combat ?

 

[Vanguard]

Several forces have brought them for Afghanistan so I would say they still have a role to play, Shotguns themselves are improving through developments with Law Enforcement to make the lighter, recoil less etc. allowing them to keep up with the developments in PDWs and so forth.

 

[STURM]

Shotguns are still in widespread use by military units worldwide. The British in Afghanistan have received a new shotgun to equip the 'point man' in certain units. This practice was first adopted by the SAS in Malaya.

 

[Eeshaan]

Shotguns are still in widespread use by military units worldwide. The British in Afghanistan have received a new shotgun to equip the 'point man' in certain units. This practice was first adopted by the SAS in Malaya.

I think you're talking about just door-breaching, right ?

There are automatic and semiautomatic shotguns avaliable, but they are quite expensive and require a bit more maintenance.

But regarding close-combat, I dont think a shotgun can ever replace a weapon like MP5 ? Soldiers usually prefer to use fully automatic weapons in close spaces, especially lightweight & quick-firing ones like submachineguns etc., especially where there's a risk of collateral damage...,

 

[STURM]

I think you're talking about just door-breaching, right ?

The policy of issuing the 'point man' in jungle patrols with Browning shotguns was because it was found to be more effective in hitting a fast moving, fleeting target, such as those that would be encountered by the 'point man'. But yes, shotguns are also used by military and law enforcement units for door breaching. The British troops in Afghanistan have been issued with the Benneli M4, with an 8 round magazine.

 

[winnyfield]

The most prevalent users of shotguns are navies. Most sailors are trained to use shotguns as opposed to the niche roles (mostly door breaching) in land forces.

 

[Cadredave]

I think you're talking about just door-breaching, right ?

There are automatic and semiautomatic shotguns avaliable, but they are quite expensive and require a bit more maintenance.

But regarding close-combat, I dont think a shotgun can ever replace a weapon like MP5 ? Soldiers usually prefer to use fully automatic weapons in close spaces, especially lightweight & quick-firing ones like submachineguns etc., especially where there's a risk of collateral damage...,

In the NZ Army the only pers who use the MP5 are the Commandos & SAS in the black role (Counter Terrorist) when they breech they use well aimed shots with there MP5 full auto is never used and the MP5 has a clear advantage relegating the shot gun for breeching only.

In the green role the NZ Army is issued the Benneli M3 semi auto shot gun with buck & solid shot for lethal use in complex terrain like urban & jungle where it has a distinct advantage over a MP5 type weapon. For NOLEs type Operations we use bean bags and other non lethal rounds as part of civil disturbance under command of NZPOL or EUPOL which is our role in East Timor.

Shot guns have made a come back they have a niche role in todays complex fight they are another tool in our tool bag to pull out when we need it, they are issued 1 M3 per rifle section in the Infantry Battalions.

CD

 

[Eeshaan]

In the NZ Army the only pers who use the MP5 are the Commandos & SAS in the black role (Counter Terrorist) when they breech they use well aimed shots with there MP5 full auto is never used and the MP5 has a clear advantage relegating the shot gun for breeching only.

In the green role the NZ Army is issued the Benneli M3 semi auto shot gun with buck & solid shot for lethal use in complex terrain like urban & jungle where it has a distinct advantage over a MP5 type weapon. For NOLEs type Operations we use bean bags and other non lethal rounds as part of civil disturbance under command of NZPOL or EUPOL which is our role in East Timor.

Shot guns have made a come back they have a niche role in todays complex fight they are another tool in our tool bag to pull out when we need it, they are issued 1 M3 per rifle section in the Infantry Battalions.

CD

Thanks alot for the info, guys.

I was under the impression that 12-guage buckshot has lesser structure ( trees etc.) and hard cover penetration capability compared to heavy caliber rounds like the 7.62 NATO.

I had read in one of Robert Young Pelton's books a while ago that rebels in the Congo region prefer to use weapons like the AK47 for their tree & foilage piercing capability, but rebel factions in South America like FARC prefer to use shotguns for it's pellet spread in close spaces. Both environments are similar, though.

 

[PCShogun]

The most prevalent users of shotguns are navies. Most sailors are trained to use shotguns as opposed to the niche roles (mostly door breaching) in land forces.

Yep, nothing like a short barreled shotgun to get the bad guys off your submarines deck. Plus, the shot will not penetrate the hull.

 

[the road runner]

I was under the impression that 12-guage buckshot has lesser structure ( trees etc.) and hard cover penetration capability compared to heavy caliber rounds like the 7.62 NATO.

I would assume 12G ammo include,00SG (9 pellets),SSG(18 pellets) hunting rounds would be used as well as military ammo(frag 12 grenade round)ect.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c&feature=related"]AA-12. World's deadliest shotgun! - YouTube[/nomedia]

Those Frag 12 grenade rounds(armoured piercing) look like they could go thru a tree with ease.

Dose anyone know if the military use "Solid shot" 12 G rounds out of a rifled barrel?

 

[joshbalding91]

Also in the use of shot guns in the future is also using shotgun attachments underbarrel assault rifles

 

[Eeshaan]

I would assume 12G ammo include,00SG (9 pellets),SSG(18 pellets) hunting rounds would be used as well as military ammo(frag 12 grenade round)ect.

AA-12. World's deadliest shotgun! - YouTube

Those Frag 12 grenade rounds(armoured piercing) look like they could go thru a tree with ease.

Dose anyone know if the military use "Solid shot" 12 G rounds out of a rifled barrel?

The AA-12 is an extremely advanced weapon that has not seen any major order by any military to date. It weighs 7+ kilos while loaded and is not exactly cheap.

IMHO if it does see combat, it will be in the hands of elite special operations units, like the SEALS, SAS etc. I don't think it will be issued to frontline forces anytime soon.

The Benelli M4 on the other hand seems more of a workhorse weapon, good for any unit, perfectly suited for any combat role in any environment, wether law enforcement or military.

 

[Cadredave]

Yep, nothing like a short barreled shotgun to get the bad guys off your submarines deck. Plus, the shot will not penetrate the hull.

Good point forgot about our Navy boarding parties who use the short barrel version on ship decks. RNZAF use it as well for close protection of the aircraft during SASO type operations.

 

[My2Cents]

Those Frag 12 grenade rounds(armoured piercing) look like they could go thru a tree with ease.

The Frag-12 AP round is a shaped charge. It can probably poke a hole the size of a pencil through a tree up to 3” to 4” thick. It is a surface detonation, so it won’t damage the tree much more than that.

Dose anyone know if the military use "Solid shot" 12 G rounds out of a rifled barrel?

The police use them to take out engines at road blocks. Military probably does the same if they don't have a .50 cal available.

 

[PO2GRV]

as an interesting (to me anyway) aside, this reminds me of a debate I had with a friend of mine who was proposing that the next generation tanks wouldn't have a cannon, but just banks of cheap missiles. I had a time trying to explain to him that the main gun on a tank was alot like a shotgun in that they can fire different loads and armaments to suit the situation

shotguns will certainly have a place on the battle field for some time to come if only for versatility alone

 

[STURM]

During the Cold War, did the Soviet army or any other Warsaw Pact army use shotguns? I can't recall seeing any photos of shot guns in use by Warsaw Pact armies.

 

[RobWilliams]

There's a short little clip from BritishForcesNews from coming up to 2 years ago that features the Benelli M4, at least, i'm fairly sure which it is.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkL_MZLaqSs"]Paras' New Guns 07.06.10 - YouTube[/nomedia]

It never refers to it as the Benelli M4, just 'combat shotgun'.

Starts from 1:03

 

[STURM]

Will be interesting to see if British troops conducting jungle warfare training in Brunei will be issued with the Benelli M4. I'm not sure if Australian or New Zealand troops followed the British practice of arming the 'point man' in jungle patrols with a shotgun, but the Malaysians did.

 

[Eeshaan]

During the Cold War, did the Soviet army or any other Warsaw Pact army use shotguns? I can't recall seeing any photos of shot guns in use by Warsaw Pact armies.

Wasn't the SAIGA-12 the shotgun of choice for the Russian Special Forces during the cold war ?

I don't know if it's seen serious action anywhere, though.

Eh weird, I see no mention at all of shotguns in the Indian Army's arsenal.

 

[the road runner]

The police use them to take out engines at road blocks. Military probably does the same if they don't have a .50 cal available.

Do you know what the actual "Shotgun" name is for the rifled barrel shottys?
Would like to read up about a rifled shotguns as my understanding is rather limited on them.

Regards.

Edit: Combat shotgun ,wow on that video that RobWilliams posted it says it can fire solid shot out to 1300 Meters(questioning that distance)? I am assuming it fires buck shot in smooth bore barrel ,while the solids are fired thru a rifled barrel?Or is it one barrel can take solids n buckshot?