The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[ASSAIL]

#1. 6 years between dockings = TRUE.

I was referring to "docking" in a generic sense, ie out of water. The rest of your post simply clarifies the reasons why warships cannot last long periods without "docking"
These posts started with a comment that HMS Clyde would remain in the Falklands 8 years or so without returning to the UK and I asked where she would have her "docking"

 

[StobieWan]

Nah it shouldn't be bigger, in reality it's going to be a less capable C1 platform (GP is designated as C2)

I'm going to go ahead and copy'n'paste how swerve set it out in another forum as (to me) it sums up the 3 variants of the T26 very well



So in reality the C2 (GP) variant will most likely have less kit + systems aboard so would realistically not need a similar (or greater) size hull. On the contrary some people are of the opinion that a C1 size hull for a C2 is overkill given what it has to do.

There's some debate as to should the C1 + C2 both use a T45 hull OR use the T23 hull as the hull of a T23 is brilliant for ASW (IIRC current T23 hulls are lasting 2x as long as the planners originally thought due to the climates they operate in - the T23 was designed for trawling around the North Atlantic 24/7 not warm Arabic seas, someone please correct me if i'm wrong) and then if the C2 used that hull it would be easier logistically.

C1/C2 is long gone - and C3 got rolled into the Hydrographic Mine Patrol Craft instead.

C1 was originally meant to be what we're getting for Type 26, C2 would have been the same hull with a less capable weapons and sensors fit.

As is, C1/C2 has been replaced with Type 26 and C3 is the HMPC concept which we're not seeing til 2020 onwards.

Type 26 won't be using a Type 45 hull or IFEP (integrated full electric propulsion) as it's too noisy for ASW work or was at last count.

Ian

 

[Volkodav]

Type 26 won't be using a Type 45 hull or IFEP (integrated full electric propulsion) as it's too noisy for ASW work or was at last count.

Ian

Interesting I would have thought it would be quieter than a gearbox and shaft set up. Any idea where the noise is coming from?

 

[RobWilliams]

C1/C2 is long gone - and C3 got rolled into the Hydrographic Mine Patrol Craft instead.

C1 was originally meant to be what we're getting for Type 26, C2 would have been the same hull with a less capable weapons and sensors fit.

As is, C1/C2 has been replaced with Type 26 and C3 is the HMPC concept which we're not seeing til 2020 onwards.

Type 26 won't be using a Type 45 hull or IFEP (integrated full electric propulsion) as it's too noisy for ASW work or was at last count.

Ian

Right when I thought I was understanding this project

But surely the principle is the same? As we're having ASW and GP frigates?

AFAIK the main issue about the T45 hull is that its the wrong shape due to the necessities of its design.

 

[StobieWan]

Interesting I would have thought it would be quieter than a gearbox and shaft set up. Any idea where the noise is coming from?

I don't know - I honestly blinked when I saw that in a recording of the briefing on 26 as, like yourself, I thought IFEP would be the mutts nutts for ASW. The briefing was on the BAE DSEI 2011 website but the link doesn't work any more. It was a speaker delivering a presentation on the current thinking on Type 26 and he said that *at that time* it looked like CODLOG (Combined Diesel or Gas - and yes, it was spelled out as CODLOG, not CODOG, which confused the crap out of me)

Things may have changed - be a shame to miss on IFEP as the 45's are allegedly very fuel efficient.

 

[StobieWan]

Tripped over this set of images, including some snaps from the DSIE 2011 model:

Type 26 Frigate - Global Combat Ship datasheet pictures photos video specifications

interestingly, there's a new reference to a set of CAMM Silos forward of a set of main missile silos - it's possible they're planning on scavenging the silos fitted to Type 23 for CAMM and bringing those forward, then buying Sylver A70's or similar for the remainder of the roles - that'd be quite interesting if so.

Oddly, looking at the wall chart, they're listing four high speed diesel generators with combined diesel, *electric* or gas - really depends on where that chart is from.

Worth a look if you're interested - the article on the webby is dated september 2011.

If all that stuff gets fitted, Type 26 will be a modern and fairly impressive frigate.

(if...)

Ian

 

[Waylander]

Scalp EG & Storm Shadow are the same missile except for the interface with the aircraft - but Scalp Naval is a very different missile. It has a different airframe, wrapped around some of the same innards.

Pictures:
Storm Shadow

Scalp EG
Can't see any difference, eh?

Now look at Scalp Naval.

Yeah, so there shouldn't be any problem just to change the weapon ship interface and call it Sea Shadow. In the end you get a sea based cruise missile out of your own development without having to source lots of additional Tomahawks from the US.

SCALP Naval is also sub-launch capable so might even be a proper substitute investment for filling up the Tomahwak reserves after they got a bit depleted since 2003.

 

[1805]

I don't know - I honestly blinked when I saw that in a recording of the briefing on 26 as, like yourself, I thought IFEP would be the mutts nutts for ASW. The briefing was on the BAE DSEI 2011 website but the link doesn't work any more. It was a speaker delivering a presentation on the current thinking on Type 26 and he said that *at that time* it looked like CODLOG (Combined Diesel or Gas - and yes, it was spelled out as CODLOG, not CODOG, which confused the crap out of me)

Things may have changed - be a shame to miss on IFEP as the 45's are allegedly very fuel efficient.

I understood the fuel efficiency mainly comes from the RR WR-21 which incorporate compressor intercooling and exhaust heat recuperation. This was planned for the DD 1000 destroyers, but from Wiki it looks like they will have a MT30 outfit.

 

[Volkodav]

I don't know - I honestly blinked when I saw that in a recording of the briefing on 26 as, like yourself, I thought IFEP would be the mutts nutts for ASW. The briefing was on the BAE DSEI 2011 website but the link doesn't work any more. It was a speaker delivering a presentation on the current thinking on Type 26 and he said that *at that time* it looked like CODLOG (Combined Diesel or Gas - and yes, it was spelled out as CODLOG, not CODOG, which confused the crap out of me)

Things may have changed - be a shame to miss on IFEP as the 45's are allegedly very fuel efficient.

Very surprising as I've only heard positives where the Type 45 platform is concerned, still would have loved to have seen the Type 45 as the basis of the RANs AWD, fitted with AEGIS of course.

 

[RobWilliams]

Tripped over this set of images, including some snaps from the DSIE 2011 model:

Type 26 Frigate - Global Combat Ship datasheet pictures photos video specifications

interestingly, there's a new reference to a set of CAMM Silos forward of a set of main missile silos - it's possible they're planning on scavenging the silos fitted to Type 23 for CAMM and bringing those forward, then buying Sylver A70's or similar for the remainder of the roles - that'd be quite interesting if so.

So there's hope for A70 launchers yet! I mean after all what else would go in there? Not any Asters or CAMM so it looks like A70s are going to be fitted to me.

Looks very promising in my opinion.

 

[kev 99]

So there's hope for A70 launchers yet! I mean after all what else would go in there? Not any Asters or CAMM so it looks like A70s are going to be fitted to me.

Looks very promising in my opinion.

I wouldn't get too exited, it's all speculation still.

 

[RobWilliams]

I wouldn't get too exited, it's all speculation still.

Very true, but if the idea that the CAMM silo is different to the main missile silo is true then I only see one answer as to what would be in the main silo

 

[StobieWan]

I wouldn't get too exited, it's all speculation still.

Yeah - it's an "If" - might be like the car adverts where they show the price for the three door diesel hatch and show you the luxury leather interior from the top of the range jobby.

There's some nice ideas in there, we'll have to see what it gets fitted with rather than for. Slightly encouraged by the silos being shown as CAMM + GP however. Makes some sort of sense if they were pulling them through the 23's..

 

[Anixtu]

It was a speaker delivering a presentation on the current thinking on Type 26 and he said that *at that time* it looked like CODLOG (Combined Diesel or Gas - and yes, it was spelled out as CODLOG, not CODOG, which confused the crap out of me)

CODLOG would be Combined Diesel-eLectric Or Gas (though I've never seen that exact term used before) so there is still a slow/medium-speed electric propulsion element implied. T23s are described as CODLAG.

Maybe it's cheaper/easier to use GTs coupled to the shaft for high speed than to put them through an electric drive? There must be some reason behind a move away from full IEP.

 

[ProM]

As stated, the C1, C2, C3 options long disappeared, although it is possible that some won't be fitted with all kit thus making them effectively a C2.

The only reason I can think of why IEP would be noiser (and then only at low speed) is because the turbines are going strong irrespective of the speed of the vessel. This is why they are so efficient, but I thought that the decoupling from the drive-train more than offset that so I am surprised. But then I am not an expert on that side.

Volkodav, I can think of only 2 reasons why you would prefer AEGIS
1) CEC
2) You believe Uncle Sam's hype

I would like CEC added to the T45s, but I would prefer Sampson/S1850/UK CMS/Aster without Aegis over Aegis with CEC

 

[Systems Adict]

Maybe it's cheaper/easier to use GTs coupled to the shaft for high speed than to put them through an electric drive? There must be some reason behind a move away from full IEP.

APART from costs, IMHO it comes down to a few factors.

The main parts of the T45 IFEP (drive motors / GT's / Diesel Genny's / shafts), takes up a WHOLE LOTTA REAL ESTATE, add to this the x2 switchboard rooms, the routing of the High Voltage cabling & the splitting of the electrical supplies down into manageable areas within the ship, added to the other ancillary systems need such as cooling, etc You're probably close to a WHOLE 2 decks & about 1/3rd of the total weight of the ship.

Yes T23 is probably comparable in the scale of things, HOWEVER, there's not the same amount of space available, so Logically, if they DID shoe-horn T45's IFEP into T26, there'd be NO ROOM for the rest of the equipment, accommodation & abilities that they want in the hull, for being able to cover all the roles & tasks that they want T26 to do.

Additionally, having the wet-deck / boat ramp area at the rear means that shaft routing / engine placement is critical. The rules & regulations of what can & cannot be situated next to fuel tanks / engine rooms / shaft lines also limit layout.

It's no wonder that the ship size (GRT) which was originally supposed to be around 4,000, is now estimated to be closer to 6,000.

 

[AndrewMI]

Very true, but if the idea that the CAMM silo is different to the main missile silo is true then I only see one answer as to what would be in the main silo

Yes, CAMM (or "SeaCeptor" lol) silos are different. On the youtube video contained on the link below there are two seperate CAMM Silos. One immediately behind the strike silos, and another just in front of the Hangar.

Type 26 Frigate - Global Combat Ship datasheet pictures photos video specifications

The ship in that video has an impressive upgrade from T23. It has a main gun, 8x Harpoon, 64x CAMM, 2x CIWS, 16x main VLS and Torpedo launchers.

Some serious kit if it is fitted. Perhaps for the Anti-Sub version the VLS will have ASROC fitted?

 

[RobWilliams]

Yes, CAMM (or "SeaCeptor" lol) silos are different. On the youtube video contained on the link below there are two seperate CAMM Silos. One immediately behind the strike silos, and another just in front of the Hangar.

Type 26 Frigate - Global Combat Ship datasheet pictures photos video specifications

The ship in that video has an impressive upgrade from T23. It has a main gun, 8x Harpoon, 64x CAMM, 2x CIWS, 16x main VLS and Torpedo launchers.

Some serious kit if it is fitted. Perhaps for the Anti-Sub version the VLS will have ASROC fitted?

That'd be absolutely fantastic if all that was fitted.

In the video however I don't see the capacity for 64 CAMM + 16 more VLS systems, i mean i see a silo at the front (in a 4x4 grid) but i don't reckon what is visible before the hangar is a silo, I mean a few pictures above that video indicates both silos are mounted forward of the bridge.

 

[Anixtu]

The main parts of the T45 IFEP (drive motors / GT's / Diesel Genny's / shafts), takes up a WHOLE LOTTA REAL ESTATE, add to this the x2 switchboard rooms, the routing of the High Voltage cabling & the splitting of the electrical supplies down into manageable areas within the ship, added to the other ancillary systems need such as cooling, etc You're probably close to a WHOLE 2 decks & about 1/3rd of the total weight of the ship.

How does this use of space/weight scale between full IEP as on T45 and the partial electric drive solution adopted with CODLOG/CODLAG as on T23? I can never remember if T23 has additional DGs for non-propulsive electrical power.

 

[AndrewMI]

That'd be absolutely fantastic if all that was fitted.

In the video however I don't see the capacity for 64 CAMM + 16 more VLS systems, i mean i see a silo at the front (in a 4x4 grid) but i don't reckon what is visible before the hangar is a silo, I mean a few pictures above that video indicates both silos are mounted forward of the bridge.

Hopefully this explains...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-aiyD_7Ll8...fc/UEuDUxoVuAQ/s1600/Type+26+Frigate_Data.JPG