New Indian Air Force Fighter competition

gf0012-aust

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Twinblade said:
WSJ's Indian Editions has fuelled the rumours that EF consortium's bid is L1, even Shiv Aroor confirms on his blog that it might be the case. Still waiting for official declaration.
Govt to soon close deal for fighter jets - Economy and Politics - livemint.com
Livefist: Eurofighter Lowest Bidder In Indian MMRCA Bid, Sources Tell Newspaper
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That would be some good news for the EF consortia, I'm assuming that ToT has been successfully met as this is the single biggest issue for the IndGov (not baseline cost as assumed)

I've been involved in a couple of submissions for the IndGov on weapons capabilities. Both floundered on ToT isues.
 
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Twinblade

Twinblade

Member
More than rooting for a contender, I wish for the circus to get over quick. Hopefully the fat lady sings on Thursday and signs the contract before March end ( Indian Fiscal Year)

PS: No pun intended on Angela Merkel :)
 
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ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Twinblade said:
And the winner is.........

*cue dramatic drum beats*

Dassault's RAFALE !!!!!

Dassault Rafale wins for USD 10.4 billion Indian Air Force jet fighter deal: Sources
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Congrats to Dassault, about time they sold that thing... :D

The negotiations will make interesting reading I think. I'd suggest that Dassault had to make MASSIVE accomodations to gain the sale.

Hopefully for India's sake these accomodations aren't of a similar nature to those experienced by Australia when we bought Tiger and MRH-90 (ie: apparent deliberate under-bidding to win the sale, but undeliverable in that configuration).
 
Twinblade

Twinblade

Member
And Dassault aviation's shares touch a new high within a couple of hours of the decision being made public :) , up by 22% and climbing.
Dassault Jumps Most in 22 Years on Rafale India Bid: Paris Mover - Businessweek





icekid said:
108 aircraft will be manufactured in India with partnership with Indian companies Dassault Rafale wins Indian Air Force Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft Competition | Defence Aviation

What companies?? Only HAL or other private players??
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HAL, Samtel, Astra Microwave and several other sub contractors of HAL. Mki deal helped HAL to develop these vendors, technology from Rafale deal will help them grow stronger.
 
SABRE

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
A wise choice. The aircraft would not only be suitable replacement for MiG-21 but also Miirage-2000s in long run (very long run).

Any idea how easy or difficult it would be for Mirage pilots to convert to Rafale?
 
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Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
SABRE said:
Any idea how easy or difficult it would be for Mirage pilots to convert to Rafale?
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Just as hard as any other pilot. The Rafale uses a very different cockpit display/HMI than other contemporary fighters. Which includes a special magnifying device and all sorts of weirdness. Works well but takes time to train to use.
 
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the road runner

Active Member
With India selecting the Rafale,im wondering if a buy of the Naval version might be in the works.With India looking more at Aircraft carrier ops fro there navy,im wondering if the Naval version of the Rafale might be on its way to India.

The Migs 29s are a new addition for the IN,but im wondering if the HAL Tejas may be replaced with Rafale.It astounds me that India operate so many different types of Aircraft

Congratulations to the Rafale consortium.
 
Twinblade

Twinblade

Member
the road runner said:
With India selecting the Rafale,im wondering if a buy of the Naval version might be in the works.With India looking more at Aircraft carrier ops fro there navy,im wondering if the Naval version of the Rafale might be on its way to India.

The Migs 29s are a new addition for the IN,but im wondering if the HAL Tejas may be replaced with Rafale.It astounds me that India operate so many different types of Aircraft

Congratulations to the Rafale consortium.
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Rafale being picked by navy for CATOBAR carrier ( which by all means and possibilities is unlikely before 2022-24) as an interim aircraft is highly unlikely. I am not saying it isn't entirely impossible, just unlikely. Navy has 45 MiG-29K on order and two carriers being inducted right now. It all depends on how AMCA program makes progress.
 
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Eeshaan

New Member
I don't think this decision was all about strategic value and economics. There seems to have been alot of political pressure & decisions made behind closed doors to determine the winner.

Credit should equally be given to Mr. Sarkozy's government for pushing the deal forward.

Anyways, a great day for both the Indian Armed Forces and Dassault. If you don't mind, i'll be toasting a glass of red wine or two to this later today ...:D
 
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Eeshaan

New Member
Abraham Gubler said:
Just as hard as any other pilot. The Rafale uses a very different cockpit display/HMI than other contemporary fighters. Which includes a special magnifying device and all sorts of weirdness. Works well but takes time to train to use.
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Sorry for the double post, but I had always hought that it'd be easy for Indian pilots to convert to the Rafale from experience with the Mirage-2000. I had no idea that the cockpits & HUDs in both airctaft were so different...
 
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Vivendi

Well-Known Member
Abraham Gubler said:
Just as hard as any other pilot. The Rafale uses a very different cockpit display/HMI than other contemporary fighters. Which includes a special magnifying device and all sorts of weirdness. Works well but takes time to train to use.
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My evaluation aircraft was two-seat Rafale B number B301, the first production model to be delivered, which Dassault retains for test purposes. The cockpit was to full F3 standard, with just a small additional test control panel (telemetry) fitted in the front cockpit. The sortie was flown from Istres, near Marseilles.

I did not have time for any simulator, avionics bench or groundschool training. I received a 1.5h cockpit familiarisation on the ground in a Rafale at Dassault's Istres facility on the day before the evaluation. Other than this, I would fly the complete evaluation myself from the front cockpit. The ease and success with which I could fly and cope with such a massively capable fighter would be a clear indication of the Rafale's "fight and forget" design concept.
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FLIGHT TEST: Dassault Rafale - Rampant Rafale

When reading this one gets a slightly different impression...
 
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Vivendi

Well-Known Member
Eeshaan said:
I don't think this decision was all about strategic value and economics. There seems to have been alot of political pressure & decisions made behind closed doors to determine the winner.

Credit should equally be given to Mr. Sarkozy's government for pushing the deal forward.

Anyways, a great day for both the Indian Armed Forces and Dassault. If you don't mind, i'll be toasting a glass of red wine or two to this later today ...:D
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Do you have links to sources supporting this?

My impression was that the Indians for this process was very much focused on a "clean" process and not let politics and "decisions made behind doors to determine the winner". The first step was based on technological evaluation and generated the short list consisting of Rafale and Typhoon, the second step was to identify the L1.

Perhaps I am wrong?
 
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Vivendi

Well-Known Member
ADMk2 said:
Congrats to Dassault, about time they sold that thing... :D

The negotiations will make interesting reading I think. I'd suggest that Dassault had to make MASSIVE accomodations to gain the sale.
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Why do you suggest that Dassault had to make "MASSIVE accomodations to gain the sale"?
Hopefully for India's sake these accomodations aren't of a similar nature to those experienced by Australia when we bought Tiger and MRH-90 (ie: apparent deliberate under-bidding to win the sale, but undeliverable in that configuration).
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Most likely the "accomodations" will be more similar to what India experienced when they bought Mirage 2000, also made by Dassault.
 
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Toptob

Active Member
WhoooooT!!!! Finally a win for the Rafale!!! Good choice (this is from a long time rafale fanboy though)

Most likely the "accomodations" will be more similar to what India experienced when they bought Mirage 2000, also made by Dassault.
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What makes you say that? I believe the Mirage wasn't produced in license, so the arrangements could be very different from the Mirage deal. The fact that production for a large part will take place in India gives much more room for deals.
 
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nitinlj

New Member
Toptob said:
WhoooooT!!!! Finally a win for the Rafale!!! Good choice (this is from a long time rafale fanboy though)


What makes you say that? I believe the Mirage wasn't produced in license, so the arrangements could be very different from the Mirage deal. The fact that production for a large part will take place in India gives much more room for deals.
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Any ideas about the extent of Rafale avionics to be manufactured in India and their depth of TOT in view of exclusive technologies?
 
RobWilliams

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Vivendi said:
Do you have links to sources supporting this?

My impression was that the Indians for this process was very much focused on a "clean" process and not let politics and "decisions made behind doors to determine the winner". The first step was based on technological evaluation and generated the short list consisting of Rafale and Typhoon, the second step was to identify the L1.

Perhaps I am wrong?
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My interpretation of "decisions made behind doors" suggests that we may not know if any took place for a while and only really be spoken about if the decision to pick the Rafale goes south (Which i'm not saying it will) and there is a rush to lay the blame of picking the aircraft on another person or saying they were pressured into it. Again i must emphasise that I have no idea if this has taken place or not.

AFAIK i read a figure somewhere that the cost of the Rafale was some 20% less than the Eurofighter (whether that included operational cost or not i cannot say)

This from the BBC

One Indian defence ministry source confirmed to Reuters that the Rafale had been "much cheaper unit-wise", adding: "Moreover, the Indian air force, which is well-equipped with French fighters, is favouring the French."
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[1]

That implies the choice to pick the Rafale was mainly economic + slightly political so who knows, maybe there was a bit of "back room discussion".

My opinion, the Eurofighter is a better aircraft, however you can't blame them for picking the cheaper and still pretty capable aircraft from a country they're already pretty familiar with dealing with.

The Rafale will still benefit from developments like Meteor but not the AESA radar due to be fitted to the Typhoon in 2015 (AFAIK this is on shedule) [2]

EDIT: AESA mounted on Rafale in 2012, my mistake folks! Thanks T.C.P da Devil for the info.

[1] BBC News - India picks French jet over Eurofighter in $10bn deal
[2] Eurofighter and Euroradar to Develop Latest Generation AESA Radar | Aviation & Air Force News at DefenceTalk
 
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