1st image of Chinese Aircraft Carrier

[JTF-2]

A U.S. Satellite firms says it has caught a glimpse of the ship doing testing in the yellow sea

U.S. satellite firm says it has first image of Chinese aircraft carrier – This Just In - CNN.com Blogs


Just one question. Have the Chinese ommitted to the existance of this ship yet? I know we have heard many things about it. But nothing official, as of yet.

Does this pose a threat to U.S. interestes in the area?

 

[SASWanabe]

Thats Varyag... she is well known to be out on sea trials atm. many many photos of her already and yes they have admitted they plan to use here for (i think) "training and research"

 

[CheeZe]

Absolutely nothing new there. They even announced when the Varyag was going for its sea trials. It is essentially a testbed for future carrier operations and acquisitions by the PLAN. As far as secrecy goes, the Chinese have been fairly open about their intentions.

One aircraft carrier with an unfamiliar crew versus the US Pacific Fleet, I hardly think there's any contest or reason to consider this a threat. I'm not even sure what aircraft the Chinese have that are capable of using a carrier deck. This is, if anything, a symbolic threat because it symbolizes that China will be looking to expand its carrier fleet from the Varyag.

No need to get so wound up over one carrier. In itself, the Chinese Varyag hardly does anything to the balance of power.

 

[jokerabc]

For threats, nothing yet probably, but I wonder how quickly China moves to establish this as a training platform and then move to actual launching aircraft. They seem to have a plan that moves quickly.

Anybody have any information on the construction and Chinese design of this ship? The ship was structurally complete by 1992, and then sat there until refit. What kinds of things must be done for construction/engineering for a ship started in 1985 and now is looking to provide many more years of service?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Absolutely nothing new there. They even announced when the Varyag was going for its sea trials. It is essentially a testbed for future carrier operations and acquisitions by the PLAN. As far as secrecy goes, the Chinese have been fairly open about their intentions.

not so. everyone else has had a fair idea of what their intent was due to the fact that they had this obsession with buying second hand flat tops for fun parks, and it was pretty apparent that they weren't setting a trend in new amusement park concepts

One aircraft carrier with an unfamiliar crew versus the US Pacific Fleet, I hardly think there's any contest or reason to consider this a threat. I'm not even sure what aircraft the Chinese have that are capable of using a carrier deck. This is, if anything, a symbolic threat because it symbolizes that China will be looking to expand its carrier fleet from the Varyag.

Its not about being a threat to PACOM, (the largest single military command in the PACRIM), but is about making the neighbours twitchy and then about the geopolitics of keeping everyone from going off the rails in response. eg China has basically had a disagreement with nearly everyone in the PACRIM in the last 20 years, the only country that hasn't have been the Sings.

eg Vietnam has just elected to buy more Russian skimmer kit, is obviously getting closer to the russians as a counter to the chinese and basically doesn't give a toss about how big china is as because from their perspective, they've punched them on the nose a few times in the last 30 year s and will continue to do so if they think sovereign rights have been challenged over the Spratleys etc...

The filipinos are also looking at more serious kit and obviously seeing that they can get the support of the US on sovereignty issues, the indons and malays also have issues with chinese claims on the Spratelys and Paracels. In fact 6 countries in the PACRIM are in disagreement with the Chinese over those territorial boundaries

No need to get so wound up over one carrier. In itself, the Chinese Varyag hardly does anything to the balance of power.

for the US it doesn't, for the smaller nation states who have already and regularly exchanged fire with the PLAN or various chinese alphabet units it is because it demonstrates latent intent to project, persist and now reinforce that naval capability with fast jet air support, as well as a capacity to go out and sieze and hold by landing chinese marines.

its not a game changer for PACOM at a military level, but its a game changer at the strategic and ultimately tactical level for all the smalls.

 

[PCShogun]

Thailand has had a carrier flying Harriers for awhile and no one considers them the "Scourge of the China Sea's". Of course it only flies helicopters now and sits at dock 90% of the time.

China has acquired four retired aircraft carriers for study; the Australian HMAS Melbourne and the ex-Soviet carriers Minsk, Kiev and Varyag, since 1985. The Minsk was up for sale in 2006 for 120 million Yaun ( 18,823,529.41 USD) if you are interested.

I believe this carrier is exactly what China says it is, a development platform. The proof would be looking at any weapon mounts, radar, and other defensive installed technology. If its nothing new then it will be a sitting duck of a target should it ever be used during hostilities. I believe China will use this to gain knowledge and improve the "Future Carrier" build, a more modern carrier, expected in 2015.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I believe this carrier is exactly what China says it is, a development platform. The proof would be looking at any weapon mounts, radar, and other defensive installed technology. If its nothing new then it will be a sitting duck of a target should it ever be used during hostilities. I believe China will use this to gain knowledge and build another, more modern carrier later.

Its been said for some years that no: 1 is test construct for refining doctrine etc... thats not the issue.

this is about latent intent and the impact on the regional smalls.

PACOM knows that 1 PLAN task force flitting around the PACRIM in 4 years time is but a pimple on their butt - its everyone else which is the issue.

we already know its an issue because the buying patterns and requests to reach out for assistance by regionals is showing that they are prepared to redefine their own militaries and are reaching out, they are buying more capable gear, they are looking for alliances and they may well end up working out that a coalition of like minded countries with a common threat should band together (even if its just via mutual protestation at the UN) to counter the chinese.

this is way beyond just being an aircraft carrier and of no single consequence. the regional strategic flow on is significant and is already causing change and its not even ready to deploy as a warfighting asset except in limited terms. even in limited deployment the chinese now have leverage over any of the smalls - they can deploy and sit at will in the Paracels and Sprtaleys.

 

[PCShogun]

Its been said for some years that no: 1 is test construct for refining doctrine etc... thats not the issue.

this is about latent intent and the impact on the regional smalls.

Yes, and this should come as no surprise to any major powers as China has been expressing their desire for an aircraft carrier since the 70's. However, 1 carrier with a squadron of J-15's is not going to take the Philippines. Give Thailand some modernized AV-8B's to run off the Chakri Naruebet, and you pretty much have a capable opponent for the Varyag in the local arena.

You are correct though that the Chinese carrier does give them a force projection they lacked in the past. Any attempt by China to muscle the regional governments is going to require that the U.S. and Japanese step up and announce their intents to defend the area against undue aggression. However, even China cannot afford to see a contest that disrupts the flow of commerce through this channel.

 

[CheeZe]

Its not about being a threat to PACOM, (the largest single military command in the PACRIM), but is about making the neighbours twitchy and then about the geopolitics of keeping everyone from going off the rails in response. eg China has basically had a disagreement with nearly everyone in the PACRIM in the last 20 years, the only country that hasn't have been the Sings.

The Sings? Which country is that?

Also, I was answering the OP's question about threat to US interests. Telling me that I omitted a lot of detail and the larger picture is unnecessary. I know that but I'm not going to shower this guy, who has obviously not been very well-read, with all these details. Simple question, simple answer.

No need to bite my head off because I did not include every single bit of info.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The Sings? Which country is that?

Also, I was answering the OP's question about threat to US interests. Telling me that I omitted a lot of detail and the larger picture is unnecessary. I know that but I'm not going to shower this guy, who has obviously not been very well-read, with all these details. Simple question, simple answer.

No need to bite my head off because I did not include every single bit of info.

actually I wasn't biting your head off at all. abbreviated and truncated dialogue is more about a lack of time on my part.

if I was getting snippy you'd know about it.

 

[koxinga]

The Sings? Which country is that?

Singapore. But they are obviously not in anyone's corner except their own. Which is fine.

Consider this, LKY has a direct line to the upper echelons of the Chinese elite and yet they are also a key linchpin for PACOM, housing COMLOG WESTPAC for years out of Sembawang.

Commander, Logistics Group Western Pacific

The news that the LCS will have a semi-permanent presence there only serve notice to China where they stand.

 

[CheeZe]

if I was getting snippy you'd know about it.

Hard to tell with the internet and lack of tone.

Singapore. But they are obviously not in anyone's corner except their own. Which is fine.

Consider this, LKY has a direct line to the upper echelons of the Chinese elite and yet they are also a key linchpin for PACOM, housing COMLOG WESTPAC for years out of Sembawang.

What a strange term for us

Not entirely true. Singapore is a founding member of ASEAN and we've sent detachments to Afghanistan as well as several UN-peacekeeping missions. We have a vested interest in making sure ASEAN works and remains strong. It's promise of economic benefit through mutual interaction helps the entire region.

LKY is not the best measuring stick to use. I'm not entirely sure about how together he is these days. Last National Day, he looked like he might have been on his last legs, slowly walking up one step at a time and only barely acknowledging anything about him. But, off topic.

 

[Schumacher]

...........

Its not about being a threat to PACOM, (the largest single military command in the PACRIM), but is about making the neighbours twitchy and then about the geopolitics of keeping everyone from going off the rails in response. eg China has basically had a disagreement with nearly everyone in the PACRIM in the last 20 years, the only country that hasn't have been the Sings.

............

Any major nation with independent foreign policies will have some 'disagreements' with neighbours especially over a 20 yr period. With the small nations of SEA, only Vietnam and Philipines have real issues with China now.
There are reasons SEA hasn't taken an official united stance on the S. China Sea.
They know well who their real threats are, most of them are from other SEA neighbours, and are wary of outside powers half a world away trying to create tensions in the region for their own benefit.
Being small nations, it's natural they have questions when a huge neighbour like China develops quickly even if PLA doesn't get a carrier.
Anyway, it's not like SEA hasn't dealt a with major power before. Huge chunks of Indochina were bombed back to the stone-age and Philipines were colonized and have a military dictator installed by Uncle Sam in the not too distant history.
This is not a 'feat' China is likely to achieve for a very long time. So SEA is likely to have overall manageable relations with China with occasional tensions, like they do with each other.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Any major nation with independent foreign policies will have some 'disagreements' with neighbours especially over a 20 yr period. With the small nations of SEA, only Vietnam and Philipines have real issues with China now.

and one is seeking greater active engagement with the US, the other is seeking engagement with both Russia and the west. Vietnam is actively seeking military assistance for platforms from the russians, and training of her service officer corp from NATO members...

There are reasons SEA hasn't taken an official united stance on the S. China Sea.
They know well who their real threats are, most of them are from other SEA neighbours, and are wary of outside powers half a world away trying to create tensions in the region for their own benefit.

hardly say that larger powers are triggering this, the interest from those in the SCS/PACRIM has been triggered by them. They're the ones seeking broader engagement with countries like the US and in isolation from their neighbours. Some are even considering that the Japanese need to be treated as a stable player and that past transgressions are past transgressions.

Being small nations, it's natural they have questions when a huge neighbour like China develops quickly even if PLA doesn't get a carrier.

the issue is about latent capability with a carrier. It does change military options dramatically. even if the carrier spent another 4 years on trials, she could at any point be used to deploy forces on contested areas. the neighbours are already saying that this happens with chinese fishermen, much the same way that the argies had waste management contractors land in the falklands...

Anyway, it's not like SEA hasn't dealt a with major power before. Huge chunks of Indochina were bombed back to the stone-age and Philipines were colonized and have a military dictator installed by Uncle Sam in the not too distant history.

and yet those countries all have an escalating and improving relationship with the US. The vietnamese are looking at officer exchanges and are actively seeking US participation in new commercial ventures.

This is not a 'feat' China is likely to achieve for a very long time. So SEA is likely to have overall manageable relations with China with occasional tensions, like they do with each other.

the carrier, even in its current state allows it to peform all the roles of an LHA in an ARG albeit without the well dock/deck - and thats what helos can do in the absence of one anyway. Lift, deploy, replenish and become a proxy airforce whilst the main assets arrive.

in this case, for the smaller countries, a carrier is a game changer even if its not bluewater battle ready for another 5 years

 

[CheeZe]

Okay, does anyone know what aircraft the Chinese have that they are capable of launching from the carrier? I can't figure it out. I assume that sea-trials does include testing their launching capability?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Okay, does anyone know what aircraft the Chinese have that they are capable of launching from the carrier? I can't figure it out. I assume that sea-trials does include testing their launching capability?

At the moment the only credible reports so far have been of a few J-15 and a couple JL-9. So to all intents and purposed they have no usable fixed wing aircraft ready (2 pairs of 2 different types) to go. which is why in the interim she will probably test air wing concepts with helos and if lucky, a brace of J9's while the J15's get sorted

helos still allow her to refine conops for ASW, ASh, expeditionary etc...

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Okay, does anyone know what aircraft the Chinese have that they are capable of launching from the carrier? I can't figure it out. I assume that sea-trials does include testing their launching capability?

The first time this ship has put to sea under its own power - even if it hadn't spent 25 years being built - will be dedicated to testing the actual ship. Any air movements will hapen later.

As to aircraft the PLANAF is working on a deal with the Russians for 48 Su-33s the naval version of the Su-27 plus a copy called the J-15. Be interesting to see what they roll out for training.

 

[CheeZe]

This is purportedly its second sea trial so I had assumed that they'd be working on the naval air wing concepts in this second phase.

 

[AegisFC]

This is purportedly its second sea trial so I had assumed that they'd be working on the naval air wing concepts in this second phase.

Large surface vessels usually have more than one sea trial with each trial working on a specific set of systems or crew training, especially if it is new production or after an extensive refit (and this really is both).
After the first sea trial the ship went back into the yards, probably to fix anything that broke during the first trial or didn't work right. The second trial would be to test out items that didn't work during the first trial and more crew familiarity.
So chances are for the forseeable future the ship will be concentrating on crew training (engineering and DC better be proficient before you even think of flight ops), ship handeling and CONOPS development.

 

[donuteater]

Thats Varyag... she is well known to be out on sea trials atm. many many photos of her already and yes they have admitted they plan to use here for (i think) "training and research"

Varyang is an ex- soviet union carrier which was not finished when the soviet union broke up so the chinese bought it I think