Piracy Somalia

JoeMcFriday

New Member
Those would be sensitive items. You really want and need to keep the pirates guessing.:gun
Why?
They seem to know what they're doing. :D
I did qualify the question and would still like to know GDs answer.
An informative Google: "pirates and Somalia" for anyone still interested in how many nations warships can operate against pirates in not only the Somali EEZ but its territorial sea as well.
Cheers,
Mac
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Why?
They seem to know what they're doing. :D
I did qualify the question and would still like to know GDs answer.
An informative Google: "pirates and Somalia" for anyone still interested in how many nations warships can operate against pirates in not only the Somali EEZ but its territorial sea as well.
Cheers,
Mac
ah, but the google search is not accurate and out of context to allow for proper analysis :)

the quantum of vessels available (both at task force and isolated national operational level) doesn't consider critical elements such as

which ones have organic air
which organic air is kinetic armed
which organic air can carry VBSS elements
which vessels have fast skimmers on board
range of the skimmers
range of the dismounts etc...
ROE's of the various nationals and the impact of disparate ROEs

those are things which I'd regard as opsec issues.....
 

JoeMcFriday

New Member
ah, but the google search is not accurate and out of context to allow for proper analysis :)

the quantum of vessels available (both at task force and isolated national operational level) doesn't consider critical elements such as

which ones have organic air
which organic air is kinetic armed
which organic air can carry VBSS elements
which vessels have fast skimmers on board
range of the skimmers
range of the dismounts etc...
ROE's of the various nationals and the impact of disparate ROEs

those are things which I'd regard as opsec issues.....
GF.
My fault, crossed wires, I was short of time and didn't emphasize enough that it was the amount of "nations" whose warships could, by agreement with Somalia, operate against pirates even into Somali territorial waters that I wished to highlight. Not the number of warships or their capabilities, though I appreciate the bonus list of factors to consider. :)

I can only agree that "Google" has its limitations but it has its uses too at the more mundane level, especially for hints of the back-story. eg. Toxic waste, illegal fishing, banking routes, accusations and counters etc.

Cheers,
Mac
 

My2Cents

Active Member
My fault, crossed wires, I was short of time and didn't emphasize enough that it was the amount of "nations" whose warships could, by agreement with Somalia, operate against pirates even into Somali territorial waters that I wished to highlight. Not the number of warships or their capabilities, though I appreciate the bonus list of factors to consider. :)
There is a big difference between ‘how many nations warships can operate against pirates in not only the Somali EEZ but its territorial sea as well’ which you originally used and ‘the amount of "nations" whose warships could, by agreement with Somalia, operate against pirates even into Somali territorial waters’ now. The new language is the correct version.

Anyone can operate against pirates in the Somali EEZ and territorial sea if the Somali government agrees. The devil is in the details, as usual, because the Somali government lacks laws, courts, and prisons needed to try and incarcerate the pirates. So, the pirates need to be tried by the country to which the warship belongs, which is another can of worms that countries refuse to open.:drunk1
 

JoeMcFriday

New Member
There is a big difference between ‘how many nations warships can operate against pirates in not only the Somali EEZ but its territorial sea as well’ which you originally used and ‘the amount of "nations" whose warships could, by agreement with Somalia, operate against pirates even into Somali territorial waters’ now. The new language is the correct version.

Anyone can operate against pirates in the Somali EEZ and territorial sea if the Somali government agrees. The devil is in the details, as usual, because the Somali government lacks laws, courts, and prisons needed to try and incarcerate the pirates. So, the pirates need to be tried by the country to which the warship belongs, which is another can of worms that countries refuse to open.:drunk1
When taken in the context of this passage:-
"An informative Google: "pirates and Somalia" for anyone still interested in how many nations warships can operate against pirates in not only the Somali EEZ but its territorial sea as well." and my reply to GF, both my statements are correct.

Taken out of context, any statement can be unhelpfully distorted.

Why the reference to an alcoholic [:drunk1]?

Cheers,
Mac
 

greendeath539

New Member
RoE

hi again,had no reason to doubt your info joe in any way;)...our rules of engagement are quite simple fire when fired upon or the safety of ourselves or vessels crews personal safety is in danger. as far as another question was posed all operators in the security detail are from a military background exclusively maritime operations, also varied nationalities, the company im with ( who i think best not to name) employ mainly brits,american,south african personnel... happy to answer any further questions... i was PM'd regarding weapons, i rely on a Diemaco C8A1 carbine fitted with a knights armament RAS & elcan sight, and adapted streamlight torch, my sidearm is a walther P99AS . i find both very dependable
 
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JoeMcFriday

New Member
hi again,had no reason to doubt your info joe in any way;)...our rules of engagement are quite simple fire when fired upon or the safety of ourselves or vessels crews personal safety is in danger. as far as another question was posed all operators in the security detail are from a military background exclusively maritime operations, also varied nationalities, the company im with ( who i think best not to name) employ mainly brits,american,south african personnel... happy to answer any further questions... i was PM'd regarding weapons, i rely on a Diemaco C8A1 carbine fitted with a knights armament RAS & eclan sight , and adapted streamlight torch, my sidearm is a walther P99 . i find both very dependable
Hi GD,
Just call me Mac mate, thanks for your reply.

Having a team of dependable pros [as opposed to thugs] makes for an easier off-watch doesn't it?

I would hope that no one would be stupid enough to ask your company or what ships you protect.

The Walther I'm personally familiar with, the rest of your kit I'm not, I feel a "Google" coming on.

May your work be boring and the money on time.:cool:

Cheers,
Mac
 

greendeath539

New Member
thanks mac

haha me too mate, sometimes get asked some bone questions but must say level of debate on here seems quite high, well informed & lucid etc, im on rotation back to uk at the moment back out early feb .. as regards the walt just personal choice, never let me down & reliable as a wood burning stove! you cant ask for more than that , sig's seem all the rage but sticking with the P99 :cool:
 

John Sansom

New Member
When taken in the context of this passage:-
"An informative Google: "pirates and Somalia" for anyone still interested in how many nations warships can operate against pirates in not only the Somali EEZ but its territorial sea as well." and my reply to GF, both my statements are correct.

Taken out of context, any statement can be unhelpfully distorted.

Why the reference to an alcoholic [:drunk1]?

Cheers,
Mac
Hi, Mac....and I rather suspect that, what with the "legalistic" confusion surrounding this matter, My2Cents was referring to its tendency to "drive one to drink".

Thanks for your input, mate. I'll skip the booze, but I am more than happy to accept the info.
 

JoeMcFriday

New Member
GD,
No worries, glad you're posting here, it's a good site. Good personal choice is Wally, I like wood-burning stoves too but that could be an age thing.

John,
"Thanks for your input, mate. I'll skip the booze, but I am more than happy to accept the info."

Thanks John, but the info sharing goes both ways and I too learn a lot from this site, which is why I read [and then research] much, much more than I post.

I have done for a few years now and DT never fails to pop up something of interest which enlightens me in other areas of endeavour.

I do like a beer or six but usually on Saturdays at the 19th hole, I rarely post on Saturdays!! LOL

Cheers,
Mac
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Mac, the fine tuning in GD's legal options are that to stay within the definition of self defence, or defending the vessel, he cannot initiate an action. he must react to it.

there's some split second timing here, but thats the rub.

gf
 

greendeath539

New Member
gf

gf is correct ... we dont go looking for trouble but sometimes trouble comes looking for you .to further dispel any "cowboy" or thug slurs we are 100% compliant with any host countries laws regarding firearms etc,all weapons are secured and are available for inspection at anytime to ensure compliance while in port
 
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John Sansom

New Member
Mac, the fine tuning in GD's legal options are that to stay within the definition of self defence, or defending the vessel, he cannot initiate an action. he must react to it.

there's some split second timing here, but thats the rub.

gf
Perhaps the best approach is to make very rude gestures at a suspected pirate vessel. Mooning might work, too, as a non-violent initiator of physical aggression. If they start winging rpg's one's way, then one can react with things that go "BANG!!" in the night.

On the other hand, they may just scoot in nervous bewilderment.

Either way, things'll work out.:p:
 
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STURM

Well-Known Member
as a practical example.

indonesia and malaysia have denied the rights for any other country (except singapore which has shared responsibility) permission to go into the Straits and help pursue or police pirates. it may be an international passageway with rights of way for commercial traffic, but they have the right to deny any military vessel access if they push the point - another example would be the dardanelles.
Not sure about the legalities involved but can states which share jurisdiction over an international waterway actually 'deny' other states the right to provide security in the area? But yes, Malaysia and Indonesia have in the past been very vocal against the idea of having foreign participation to help provide security against possible pirate attacks in the Melaka Straits.

In one of the episodes of this Ross Kemp documentary there is an interview with Indonesian pirates who explain the motivation behind their profession and demonstrate how they they use a long bamboo pole to board ships.Compared to their Somali counterparts, the Indonesian pirates who operate in the Melaka Straits and in the waters surrounding Singapore, are rarely armed with anything more than machetes. There is also footage of Ross Kemp with a Malaysian MMEA team on an anti-piracy op.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaBqHyPu9II&feature=related"]YouTube - Ross Kemp In Search Of Pirates 1 (1/5)[/nomedia]


Some articles related to the Melaka Straits and the Eyes In The Sky intiative.

http://www.defenceviewpoints.co.uk/articles-and-analysis/maritime-security-in-the-malacca-straits

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2007/12/4/nation/20071204194120&sec=nation

http://blogs.reuters.com/global/2010/03/07/balancing-powers-in-the-malacca-strait/

http://findarticles.com/p/news-arti...loyds-takes-malacca-strait-risk/ai_n44330734/

On a side note, the captured Somalis have arrived in Malaysia.
 

JoeMcFriday

New Member
Perhaps the best Mooning might work, too, as a non-violent initiator of physical aggression.
On the other hand, they may just scoot in nervous bewilderment.

Either way, things'll work out.:p:
Ahhh, a version of the Braveheart ploy.

I tried that one night, when dressed in full regalia, upon tilting the kilt all I got were giggles and one howling with laughter. I'll think I'll try it on men next time, in summer, may get a better result.

Seriously though,
GF & GD, I hear what you're saying. It can be a very fine line.
You must not only be right but you must be seen to right.

The timing though, must keep the odds in the defenders favor, once that starts to tip...that's the judgement call, isn't it?

"Trust me, I'm a nice pirate, really I am"
Uninvited, heavily armed persons, covered by military grade weapons [RPGs etc], boarding your ship in known pirate waters, may seem to exhibit clear cut hostile intent [akin to an armed home invasion].

Initiating righteous armed self defence procedures would be an equally clear cut right, one would think.

In legalese it rates a"Maybe. Actually too many qualifiers to list here.

To expand on GFs [timing of self defence] point, there's a risk that lawyers will try to make the obviously righteous legal defender into the guilty party, usually to push their own agenda, using terms like "excessive force occasioning death" Thus turning the whole notion of right and wrong on its head. Pirates it seems have rights too, even when heavily armed with assault weapons and trespassing on your private property, with obvious intent.

Even when the case is successfully defended, it's a time and treasure loss that is best avoided from the start, which brings us back to the importance of "timing", "self defence" and the "rub" in it all.

School time,
Must pick the urchins up.
Cheers,
Mac
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
To expand on GFs [timing of self defence] point, there's a risk that lawyers will try to make the obviously righteous legal defender into the guilty party, usually to push their own agenda, using terms like "excessive force occasioning death" Thus turning the whole notion of right and wrong on its head. Pirates it seems have rights too, even when heavily armed with assault weapons and trespassing on your private property, with obvious intent.
Mac, can we please not over-simplify the discussions on legal concepts (such as, 'reasonableness' and 'proportionality')? I would loath to malign the legal profession in advising the various maritime forces deployed in support of the counter-piracy mission (via generic lawyer bashing, as is the norm in many forums), given that we have members on this forum who are legally trained and also have a military service record. BTW, some of the more astute bloggers informing the public on the issue of Somali pirates are, in fact, lawyers. To give one example, Eagle1, is an attorney and a retired Navy Reserve Captain (Surface Warfare) officer (see link to his blog provided).

The issues that arise in counter-piracy are complex and at times may be a lacuna involved due to fact that many of the issues involved are complex and multi-faceted. I also choose not to deal with the conflict of laws issue (as this is a matter for legal experts) for piracy matters within territorial waters as that is fairly complex.

To start, let us deal with the applicability of the 1988 Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts Against the Safety of Maritime Navigation (SUA Convention) and it's conflicting provisions relative to the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (1982 UNCLOS). If you are interested, please read paragraphs 42 to 49 of the link for some basic information. I'll try my best to state the issues accurately without going too much into the complex legal details that is frankly dry and boring.

At the risk of repeating myself (as I have previously posted some of the information below), please note that the 1982 UNCLOS provides the legal framework setting out which States have jurisdiction over illegal activities at sea. Dr Bev Mackenzie has written a guide explaining 'What is UNCLOS' and he provides an explanation of the key provisions.
(1) As of 5 Feb 2009, 156 States and EU are parties to the 1982 UNCLOS. Other than the US, all other States with warships in the area are parties to the 1982 UNCLOS. BTW, the piracy provisions in 1982 UNCLOS are identical to those in the 1958 Convention on the High Seas.

(2) Article 58(2), provides that the piracy provisions are applicable in the exclusive economic zone (EEZ) and under Article 107, the navy ships on patrol are entitled to seize the pirate ships. If a vessel is hijacked by pirates and remains under their control, it is a pirate ship.

(3) The right of all States to seize pirate ships on the high seas and arrest persons on board is also an exception to the principle of exclusive jurisdiction of the flag State and these rules regarding piracy also apply to ships in the EEZ of any State.​

Under the United Nations Charter, the Security Council (SC) has primary responsibility for the maintenance of international peace and security. If the SC acts under Chapter VII of the Charter, its decisions are legally binding on all UN members and they prevail over obligations in other conventions. And under SC Resolution 1816 of 2 June 2008 (whose authority has been renewed in other resolutions), States cooperating with the Transitional Somali Federal Government (TSFG) in the fight against piracy and armed robbery at sea off the coast of Somalia, for which advance notification has been provided by the TSFG to the Secretary‐General, may:
(1) Enter the territorial waters of Somalia for the purpose of repressing acts of piracy and armed robbery at sea, in a manner consistent with such action permitted on the high seas with respect to piracy under relevant international law; and

(2) Use, within the territorial waters* of Somalia, in a manner consistent with action permitted on the high seas with respect to piracy under relevant international law, all necessary means to repress acts of piracy and armed robbery.​

Just having a warship presence in the area is insufficient, there must be facilities for intelligence collection, a law enforcement detachment to preserve evidence and holding facilities issues must also be addressed as part of the counter-piracy naval logistics.

Let me give another example. When a Singapore naval officer, RADM Miranda, took command of CTF-151 last year, he deployed with a Singaporean military lawyer as part of his command team. That Singapore military lawyer (CPT Kim Jixian), as part of his pre-deployment preparations was even attached to Singapore's MINDEF Legal Services for two-weeks on top of pre-deployment meetings with legal advisers in Combined Maritime Force (CMF). CMF is commanded by USN's VADM William Gortney and the USN has law enforcement type of resources in place to enable the US Government to prosecute pirates where appropriate. In the case the the sole surviving pirate in the Maersk Alabama hijacking incident, he is being tried in New York. To quote Singapore Navy's CPT Kim, who was interviewed in Issue No. 1 2010 of "Navy News" (page 11):

"Balancing our legal obligations under international law with operational realities is a key challenge that I have to overcome on a daily basis. This requires us to be creative in discussing the various options available to ensure compliance with our legal obligations, in a way that minimises operational impact.”​

The above quote is indicative of the mindset of the military lawyers at work. And I know that Australian generals when deployed for coalition operations do seek legal advice. The older closed thread on 'Pirates' discusses some of the legal issues and you might want to take a look at some the links provided. In particular, there is an ISEAS viewpoint published in Nov 2008 on how the nations in maritime South East Asia acted together to reduce the pirate scourge in the Malacca Straits.

As gf0012-aust has mentioned before, "a couple of the people in here have direct experience in either track managing pirates, engaging them, protecting unarmed vessels and or have done VBSS - so they certainly have direct experience in the things that matter - to them."

*Note: Territorial waters is waters within the 12 nautical miles limit (22 km) of the Somalia coast.
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Not sure about the legalities involved but can states which share jurisdiction over an international waterway actually 'deny' other states the right to provide security in the area?
I'd say yes, - but to military vessels engaged in any activity which could involve the use of armed force.

The Indons and Malaysia are good examples of this as they stated in the open that they would not allow the USN to use the Straits as a pirate patrol. There was some resistance to RAAF providing ISR via the Orions etc....

It is a sensitive issue because no one wants to take away anyones rights and they all want to deal with the problem.

getting a common legal accord has to be the basis of any solution.

armed intervention is the last refuge in a plan, its a reactive solution. It can't be the primary solution.
 

My2Cents

Active Member
Why the reference to an alcoholic [:drunk1]?
Because I was contemplate of the foolishness of those who wrote the laws that now render them impotent to act. You have to be [very] drunk for their logic to begin to make any kind of sense, much less that of the public that keeps them in power.:splat
 

My2Cents

Active Member
Perhaps the best approach is to make very rude gestures at a suspected pirate vessel. Mooning might work, too, as a non-violent initiator of physical aggression. If they start winging rpg's one's way, then one can react with things that go "BANG!!" in the night.
Why not use the old dummy-on-a-stick routine?

At least that way you will not have to explain to people how you managed to get shot in the ass.
 
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