Official Chengdu J-20 Discussion Thread

MiG-23MLD

Banned Member
A high degree of instability is the desirable, the ventral fins are most likely just a safety measure for the inital flight testing and will be eliminated in the final design. The pitch and yaw of the aircraft can be maintained by the automatic flight control, eliminating the need for any stability inherent to the airframe. Note that the rudders are very far apart, and slants outwards, most likely to move them out of the wake of the fuselage and interact with the vortices from the canards and the LERX to maintain their effectiveness at high AoA.


That's only in the subsonic regime, in the transonic and supersonic regime, wide engine spacing leads to large cross-sectional area of the aft-fuselage, and does not conform to the area rule.
I do not think those ventral fins are just a safety measure, most aircraft i know with fins were fitted with ventral fins from the begining not as a safety measure but as a design trait.
The only exception i know are the MiG-29 and Su-27, but here let me explain.
The original MiG-29 had ventral fins, several batches were built with them, later on they were deleted in the last batches of MiG-29, the first MiG-29 to fly did not have them, so basicly they were added in the first production versions.
The first versions of MiG-29 did not have the extra chaff flare dispensers on the tails so it needed the ventral fins much later by adding the extra part on the dorsal fin to carry chaff flares they deleted the ventral fins
check this page
Ôîðóì càéòà ïîääåðæêè àâèàöèîííîé ãðóïïû âûñøåãî ïèëîòàæà "Ñòðèæè" - Êèëè è Ôîðêèëè Ìèã-29

The original Su-27 T-10 also did not have ventral fins, only the redesigned T-10S has them.
The Su-34 also deleted the ventral fins.

So basicly is not logic they J-20 has ventral fins as a safety measure, in fact aircraft when do have flight test they use anti-spin chutes to stabilize the jet, see for example the test flight of the F-18E,

But let me tell you the ventral fin is canted on the J-20 making a X shaped tail this is to comfort to stealth rules.

The Su-27 and MiG-29 have area rule in the fuselage wing blending, this is specially evident in the snake shaped forebody of the Flanker.

The T-50 has also a very distinctive forebody blending with the jet nacelles, now this jet is designed to supercruise and has really a small tail and no ventral fins, the aircraft is basicly a very flat wing and fuselage blended into an integral configuration, reducing drag even more than the Su-27 and Su-35 do.

The other thing important to say, stealth aircraft are not aerodyanmically as clean as earlier fighters, the F-15 and Su-27 are really aerodynamically speaking better aircraft than the F-22 and T-50 taking the engines apart and different avionics, the aircraft follow better the rules of aerodynamics.
the Rafale and Eurofighter are the same.
The J-20 shows very well the Chinese did not make a fighter with wings like the X-32 or X-36 has, neither with canards like the SAAB stealth fighter has been proposed, the J-20 is a hybrid of a fuselage of a fifth genration with the wing and canards of a fourth generation.
The T-50 up to a certain degree is the same with those rounded nacelles and the F-35 is the same.http://users.dbscorp.net/jmustain/x36.jpg
The F-22 is in reality the only stealth fighter from radome to nozzles.
 
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wittmanace

Active Member
Personally, I think we are losing sight of the real news in these images. We, or at least I, can tell very little about actual capabilities of the aircraft from these pictures. For all we know it is similar to when the russians let pics of the MiG 1.44 leak, meaning it could be a testbed, or one of several different prototypes and not the final design to enter production

. The real news here, to me, is that china is serious about tyrying to ddevelop the latest tech in aircraft, seems to be doing it locally rather than procurement from abroad, and just as importantly it seems they want the world to know that they are in the hunt for lo/vlo aircraft of the 5th gen. Until we have something to base performance on, I think that is the news there is.

I would also respectfully question the basis for some of the assumptions as to the performance and timelines of the aircraft. We do not know when development started, what the plaaf requirements are, what foreign tech assistance they may or may not be getting, etc. As for using the budget as a guide, I would remind that ppp is a factor, the fact that the chinese do not have the same accountability or transparency for their defence budget, and that said budget is typically said be significantly greater than stated by the chinese governmant. Whilst I am fascinated to read the comments of experienced members here, and learn a great deal from it, I do think it is too premature for a large portion of the conjecture others have added to this debate.

Having said all this, I would ask if any of the experienced members of the board could clarify to me why the chinese would go for a plane that seems to me to be significantly larger than the other 5th gen aircraft and their prototypes we have seen? And what this suggests? I base this on my impression of the size in the pics where it is next to other vehicles...
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Personally, I think we are losing sight of the real news in these images. We, or at least I, can tell very little about actual capabilities of the aircraft from these pictures. For all we know it is similar to when the russians let pics of the MiG 1.44 leak, meaning it could be a testbed, or one of several different prototypes and not the final design to enter production
I disagree on this, for what it does show is the line of development thought - and the design starts to show doctrine issues as well....


. The real news here, to me, is that china is serious about tyrying to ddevelop the latest tech in aircraft, seems to be doing it locally rather than procurement from abroad, and just as importantly it seems they want the world to know that they are in the hunt for lo/vlo aircraft of the 5th gen. Until we have something to base performance on, I think that is the news there is.
yes, that is true - it puts all the fanbois in a dilemma though as they'd previously dismissed 5th Gen aircraft as trivial, now they're falling over themselves proud as punch that one appears to exist - and more to the point, they seem to think that its superior to anything else. (thus ignoring the reality that countries with a history of fighter development are apparently deficient and haven't discovered what the chinese have etc....) /sarcasm off


I would also respectfully question the basis for some of the assumptions as to the performance and timelines of the aircraft. We do not know when development started, what the plaaf requirements are, what foreign tech assistance they may or may not be getting, etc. As for using the budget as a guide, I would remind that ppp is a factor, the fact that the chinese do not have the same accountability or transparency for their defence budget, and that said budget is typically said be significantly greater than stated by the chinese governmant. Whilst I am fascinated to read the comments of experienced members here, and learn a great deal from it, I do think it is too premature for a large portion of the conjecture others have added to this debate.
again, I disagree, the aircraft design shows timelines on technology included in the mule on display. granted they've pulled in bits and pieces of other designs and come up with a hybrid, but it points to general timelines of thought. map that against their prev developments and you can start to form a picture of when they started.

Having said all this, I would ask if any of the experienced members of the board could clarify to me why the chinese would go for a plane that seems to me to be significantly larger than the other 5th gen aircraft and their prototypes we have seen? And what this suggests? I base this on my impression of the size in the pics where it is next to other vehicles...
the most important issue for me is not the aircraft - in actual fact the aircraft is almost irrelevant (thats bound to upset the techno freaks and pretend geeks at the nationalist level) - but the style and design allow you to form a picture of how they expect to fight, how there will be doctrine change, changes in operational constructs etc...... thats where wing shape, real estate of the wing surface area, carriage, inlet shape, inlet size, sensor points etc all become relevant.

in absolute terms, I don't care if it looks like a tomato - all I'm interested in is the shape and size because that starts to form a picture of where their force construct and doctrine construct is heading.

the plane is irrelevant in the bigger picture.
 
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Sampanviking

Banned Member
in absolute terms, I don't care if it looks like a tomato - all I'm interested in is the shape and size because that starts to form a picture of where their force construct and doctrine construct is heading.
Likewise, as I would love to know what this design is tasked towards, how it will fit into the PLAAF inventory and what it will be replacing.

If you have any insights please do share.

I am also very interested to learn the machines likely unit cost and production lead times.
 

King Comm

New Member
I do not think those ventral fins are just a safety measure, most aircraft i know with fins were fitted with ventral fins from the begining not as a safety measure but as a design trait.
The only exception i know are the MiG-29 and Su-27, but here let me explain.
The original MiG-29 had ventral fins, several batches were built with them, later on they were deleted in the last batches of MiG-29, the first MiG-29 to fly did not have them, so basicly they were added in the first production versions.
The first versions of MiG-29 did not have the extra chaff flare dispensers on the tails so it needed the ventral fins much later by adding the extra part on the dorsal fin to carry chaff flares they deleted the ventral fins
check this page
Ôîðóì càéòà ïîääåðæêè àâèàöèîííîé ãðóïïû âûñøåãî ïèëîòàæà "Ñòðèæè" - Êèëè è Ôîðêèëè Ìèã-29

The original Su-27 T-10 also did not have ventral fins, only the redesigned T-10S has them.
The Su-34 also deleted the ventral fins.

So basicly is not logic they J-20 has ventral fins as a safety measure, in fact aircraft when do have flight test they use anti-spin chutes to stabilize the jet, see for example the test flight of the F-18E,

But let me tell you the ventral fin is canted on the J-20 making a X shaped tail this is to comfort to stealth rules.
How can you analyse one particular component of the plane based on experiences with other completely different designs from different eras, and not on the design philosophy of the actual plane and how that component would interact with the rest of the design?

Why would the Chinese 4th gen need ventral fins? It has relaxed stability in the yaw axis, the directional stability is maintained mostly by the flight control system, the airframe doesn't have to provide as much stability as 3rd gen designs. The incorporation of the ventral fin may simply a lack of confidence in the new flight control.

The Su-27 and MiG-29 have area rule in the fuselage wing blending, this is specially evident in the snake shaped forebody of the Flanker.

The T-50 has also a very distinctive forebody blending with the jet nacelles, now this jet is designed to supercruise and has really a small tail and no ventral fins, the aircraft is basicly a very flat wing and fuselage blended into an integral configuration, reducing drag even more than the Su-27 and Su-35 do.
In the supersonic regime, cross-sectional area is far more important than shape, an aft-fuselage like that of the Su-27 contributes to as much as 40% of the total drag. That's why T-50 have such small rudders, to lower the total cross-sectional area of the aft-fuselage, reducing drag in supersonic flight.

The other thing important to say, stealth aircraft are not aerodyanmically as clean as earlier fighters, the F-15 and Su-27 are really aerodynamically speaking better aircraft than the F-22 and T-50 taking the engines apart and different avionics, the aircraft follow better the rules of aerodynamics.
Not really, F-15 and Su-27, like all other 4th gen fighters, are subsonic dog fighters, they suffer serious performance penalties in the supersonic regime, while F-22 and T-50 are designed with manoeuvrability in the supersonic regime in mind, they will easily overcome 4th gen fighters in supersonic dog fights.
 

wittmanace

Active Member
"again, I disagree, the aircraft design shows timelines on technology included in the mule on display. granted they've pulled in bits and pieces of other designs and come up with a hybrid, but it points to general timelines of thought. map that against their prev developments and you can start to form a picture of when they started.



the most important issue for me is not the aircraft - in actual fact the aircraft is almost irrelevant (thats bound to upset the techno freaks and pretend geeks at the nationalist level) - but the style and design allow you to form a picture of how they expect to fight, how there will be doctrine change, changes in operational constructs etc...... thats where wing shape, real estate of the wing surface area, carriage, inlet shape, inlet size, sensor points etc all become relevant.

in absolute terms, I don't care if it looks like a tomato - all I'm interested in is the shape and size because that starts to form a picture of where their force construct and doctrine construct is heading.

the plane is irrelevant in the bigger picture."

What I am unsure of is how these things can be determined when we dont know if this is a one off prototype or testbed or whether it is a prototype which will be followed through to the production stage. The SU 47, for example, was shown in pictures but looks nothing like the pakfa, and the MiG 1.44 is significantly different from the pakfa. Does the fact that this "J-20" seems to be a hybrid not suggest it might be analagous to the role of the su 47 rather than the pakfa in terms of being a testbed rather than a prototype that will enter production?I would be more inclined to believe its role is the former rather than the latter until there are flight tests or more than one prototype seen. It is interesting to read the j-xx entry at sinodefence, where the suggestion ismade that there is foreign involvement in the project, and that the release of the pics, it seems from their site, is less sudden, but rather another incremental step that has been ongoing, as evidenced by, for example, the released pic of a prototype model in a wind tunnel test. This if course, to me, does not prove either way whether it is a one off test bed or concept demonstrator or if it is an early prototype. Your input would be greatly appreciated in this regard.


Lastly, what is the logic behind knowing its doctrine and role from these pics, since we dont know the above, or what it is intended to replace ( if this plane is to replace an existing platform), its avionics or armament? It seems to me the chinese could eventually be continuing with the practice of limited serial production with this platform, assuming it does enter production. The trend here might be to mature chinese technologies rather than enter the j20 into the fray as a true 5th gen. lo/vlo platfform. Personally, though no expert in this field, I am reluctant to guesstimate or rule out capabilities (within reason) or roles until further info or specs are known.
 

MiG-23MLD

Banned Member
How can you analyse one particular component of the plane based on experiences with other completely different designs from different eras, and not on the design philosophy of the actual plane and how that component would interact with the rest of the design?

Why would the Chinese 4th gen need ventral fins? It has relaxed stability in the yaw axis, the directional stability is maintained mostly by the flight control system, the airframe doesn't have to provide as much stability as 3rd gen designs. The incorporation of the ventral fin may simply a lack of confidence in the new flight control.


In the supersonic regime, cross-sectional area is far more important than shape, an aft-fuselage like that of the Su-27 contributes to as much as 40% of the total drag. That's why T-50 have such small rudders, to lower the total cross-sectional area of the aft-fuselage, reducing drag in supersonic flight.


Not really, F-15 and Su-27, like all other 4th gen fighters, are subsonic dog fighters, they suffer serious performance penalties in the supersonic regime, while F-22 and T-50 are designed with manoeuvrability in the supersonic regime in mind, they will easily overcome 4th gen fighters in supersonic dog fights.
The laws of physics remain the same for the J-20, T-50, F-15 or Spitfire.
If you have read about the use of thrust vectoring as a lateral or yaw control you will know that the basic finding of these studies in Russia and the US was that thrust vectoring can be used to control the jet as a regular dorsal fin would do, this meant that the use of thrust vectoring allows for a reduction in size of the vertical stabilizers and rudders, the T-50 follows very well this principle.
The F-22 also uses thrust vectoring as a pitch device thus tailplane deflection is kept at a minimum for supersonic trim and maneouvrability so it does not need canards.
Now you could say the T-50 is really draggy but is not the case; aerodynamically speaking reducing into several independent elements a fuselage makes less drag than creating a huge fuselage as a unit.
That was one of the reasons the Russians opted for podded engines.
The F-18E is a more conventional fuselage but still fails to be as effective as the Su-27 consider both jets only difference in one has buried engines into the fuselage (F-18E) and other podded (Su-27).

Now the flight control system is based upon the aerodynamic of the vehicle not the vehicle upon the flight control, its software is written based upon the aerodynamic properties of the jet.
By using the flight control you are just limiting the aircraft from entring into spins or stalling.
The MiG-29A having simplier flight controls can fly as well as the F-16, this is the result of aerodynamics.

A fighter like the Su-35BM if tracks and detects a stealth fighter can shoot it down, its only disadvantage is it has no stealth so it will be detected first, but in agility and supercruise can fly as well as any other fighter including the F-22.


With stealth you create machines more bulky, fuselages with larger cross section thus more drag, they are not rounded like a missile, which every one knows have circular cross section and conic or ogival nose tips.

The Russians understood that so they created a fighter with a small nose with wing and fusleage blended so its volume uses that space for weapons bays.
the problem for the chinese and americans is they wanted something with a trapezoidal cross section , that is not really very aerodynamic, and they know it
The F-35 has for that reason a rounded nozzle, which is shielded by the booms that carry the tailplanes and vertical tails.
A F-15 flying clean has excellent performance and the same is for the Su-27 but when you add external fuel and weapons you increase detectability.
The MiG-31 has semi recessed weapons this is the relatively ideal configuration for drag up to some degree but it is bad for stealth, in fact small cross sections are better than large but stealthy.

.

Now thrust vectoring also is not something that increases agility a lot as many think, on a turn it will give gains of only 10-15% or 1-2 more degrees a second.
So basicly thrust vectoring only can be used a a post stall device or a yaw or pitch control.
Canards are not the miracle device many think, the J-20 uses a very conventional wing and canard, needs ventral fins due to lack of control laterally due to very small dorsal fins.


About transonic and supersonic agility, in reality it is mostly useless, as speed increases the ability of an aircraft to turn drops abruptly, a fighter like the MiG-31 will turn at 7 degrees/s at Mach 1.2 and 3 degrees at Mach 1.8.

So even the F-22, J-20 or T-50 can not scape a missile turning because first they have a human who won`t resist turns of 50Gs as a missile does so basicly supersonic turning is myth that is the reason the americans are making UCAVs and England is doing the same.

Supercruise only brings the ability to fly fast and thus out run opponents.

The J-20 therefore uses canards just to keep the shift of its lift center at supersonic in check and reduce its effects.
The T-50 also has LEVCONs that basicly are moveable LERXs. a LERX does the same a canard does it keeps the shift of center of lift more limited.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Actually I don't, please spell it out for me.
What I meant was that my comment about MiG being in a hole was not meant against the design bureau, but rather to describe the financial circumstances surrounding the former RSK MiG. In other words while they are generally behind Sukhoi this is not for lack of ability, but for lack of customers and political clout. Hence why the Su-35S is in serial production, with guaranteed state orders, and the MiG-35 still in development.

I see... So if China made an OLS class electro optic device then we can start talking about a Chinese 5th gen?
Well it would be a step in the right direction... or do you disagree here also? Let me put it another way. If the Chinese can't even make something comparable to the OLS on the Mig-35 (nevermind the EO-DAS) then the J-20 has some serious deficiencies.

Questioning if the PAK FA is 5th gen? Oh boy...
Your disregard for my carefully placed conditionals is really making this conversation difficult.

We'll be left hanging for at least a decade or two then. It's been about that long since the J-10 first flew and we only recently got the very basic specs. We don't even know what kind of radar it uses.
And note when it first flew the rumors and speculations were about as wild as the J-20 talks is right now.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
the most important issue for me is not the aircraft - in actual fact the aircraft is almost irrelevant (thats bound to upset the techno freaks and pretend geeks at the nationalist level) - but the style and design allow you to form a picture of how they expect to fight, how there will be doctrine change, changes in operational constructs etc...... thats where wing shape, real estate of the wing surface area, carriage, inlet shape, inlet size, sensor points etc all become relevant.

in absolute terms, I don't care if it looks like a tomato - all I'm interested in is the shape and size because that starts to form a picture of where their force construct and doctrine construct is heading.

the plane is irrelevant in the bigger picture.
What is the bigger picture that you see from this prototype?
 

Blitzo

New Member
What I meant was that my comment about MiG being in a hole was not meant against the design bureau, but rather to describe the financial circumstances surrounding the former RSK MiG. In other words while they are generally behind Sukhoi this is not for lack of ability, but for lack of customers and political clout. Hence why the Su-35S is in serial production, with guaranteed state orders, and the MiG-35 still in development.
Yes I understand that, but I don't understand which "two" things you said were related

Well it would be a step in the right direction... or do you disagree here also? Let me put it another way. If the Chinese can't even make something comparable to the OLS on the Mig-35 (nevermind the EO-DAS) then the J-20 has some serious deficiencies.
We really don't know what the Chinese can or can't make... (Yes this sentence is just asking for a sarcastic comment)
Sure if J-20 didn't have any electro optic sensors like OLS or DAS then it's capabilities be quite... lacking -- but does that still render argument about the plane moot? Because that's effectively what you said with:
"Not to knock MiG, but until we see something a little more impressive then what China has demonstrated so far, and until we see it in serial production, talking about a Chinese 5th generation aircraft is premature. "

Your disregard for my carefully placed conditionals is really making this conversation difficult.
How am I disregarding your conditions -- at the end of the day you're still questioning whether PAK FA is 5th generation ("in the same way F-22 and F-35 are")...

And note when it first flew the rumors and speculations were about as wild as the J-20 talks is right now.
And was there any damage from those rumors and speculation? And were they all wholly inaccurate?


-------------

Actually just... nevermind -- I'd rather be talking about the plane's capabilities and implications rather than discussing whether we should talk about it or not.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
What is the bigger picture that you see from this prototype?
Basing issues, depth of mission, persistence, nominal fighting altitude, nominal, fighting attitude.

The presence and/or lack of refueling probe or port determines what kind of refuelers (if any) will be used. It impacts upon range and support issues, it starts to define bases of support, it starts to determine staging issues.

Thrust vectoring, RAM applique, skegs and placement might get others excited, but they are absolutely meaningless when conducting interim tactical analysis. Thats akin to focussing on blacked out windows when looking at a sports car. Nice too look at the obvious, but ultimately irrelevant in forming the assessment.
 

Wall83

Member
Hm looks like some kind of blend between a Raptor and a MiG-31.

Almost feels like they try to make it look so modern and stealthy but under all the shine its just a somewhat updated MiG.
 

wp2000

Member
Basing issues, depth of mission, persistence, nominal fighting altitude, nominal, fighting attitude.

The presence and/or lack of refueling probe or port determines what kind of refuelers (if any) will be used. It impacts upon range and support issues, it starts to define bases of support, it starts to determine staging issues.

Thrust vectoring, RAM applique, skegs and placement might get others excited, but they are absolutely meaningless when conducting interim tactical analysis. Thats akin to focussing on blacked out windows when looking at a sports car. Nice too look at the obvious, but ultimately irrelevant in forming the assessment.
Your big picture may end up with low accuracy without careful analysis of details.

e.g. if you don't look carefully, you will miss the IFR position.

BTW, your sacarism about the fan boys has missed out the bigger picture on this forum: most boys on this forum never believed that China can pull off her next gen fighter so quick. To me, all the happy fan boys deserve it, even just for a few days, with some wild dreams.
 

latenlazy

New Member
Hm looks like some kind of blend between a Raptor and a MiG-31.

Almost feels like they try to make it look so modern and stealthy but under all the shine its just a somewhat updated MiG.
Some say it looks like the F-22. Others say it's like the F-35. Still others say it looks like the Mig 144, and others yet say it's just a glorified J-10. Now it looks like a MiG-31. If it looks like all of those then it's really none of those. After all the one thing they all share in common is that they are fighter planes.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yes I understand that, but I don't understand which "two" things you said were related
Nevermind, obtuse wording.

We really don't know what the Chinese can or can't make... (Yes this sentence is just asking for a sarcastic comment)
Sure if J-20 didn't have any electro optic sensors like OLS or DAS then it's capabilities be quite... lacking -- but does that still render argument about the plane moot? Because that's effectively what you said with:
"Not to knock MiG, but until we see something a little more impressive then what China has demonstrated so far, and until we see it in serial production, talking about a Chinese 5th generation aircraft is premature. "
It renders the type of argument that's been going on here moot (the attempts to extrapolate performance in relation to other aircraft, and within a regional arms balance). My argument about the EO systems was an example within a larger context of similar gaps. We don't have reliable and powerful enough domestic engines, we don't have the EO sensors, we don't have AESA , then what do we have? A new airframe with reduced RCS and the latest Chinese avionics?

How am I disregarding your conditions -- at the end of the day you're still questioning whether PAK FA is 5th generation ("in the same way F-22 and F-35 are")...
The last part is pretty critical... I would also consider the weapons load, and support assets that the make the F-22 and future F-35 what they are. They are 5th generation fighters largely because of the leap in communication capability, i.e. in acting as part of a larger information network. This was introduced first on various late 4th gen. western fighters, before making the decisive leap on the F-22 and F-35. Whether the PAK-FA is able to do this (and whether the VVS is able to create said network for the PAK-FA to exist within) is questionable.
 

Blitzo

New Member
Some say it looks like the F-22. Others say it's like the F-35. Still others say it looks like the Mig 144, and others yet say it's just a glorified J-10. Now it looks like a MiG-31. If it looks like all of those then it's really none of those. After all the one thing they all share in common is that they are fighter planes.
It's not any of the above... It's ALL the above! We all know the darn Chicoms can't make anything original.

Anyone who wants to compare the plane with another will be doing more so due to appearance (and sometimes, spite) rather than the possible role, which is a far better gauge.
 

Blitzo

New Member
It renders the type of argument that's been going on here moot (the attempts to extrapolate performance in relation to other aircraft, and within a regional arms balance). My argument about the EO systems was an example within a larger context of similar gaps. We don't have reliable and powerful enough domestic engines, we don't have the EO sensors, we don't have AESA , then what do we have? A new airframe with reduced RCS and the latest Chinese avionics?
Right... Well I can only say I'll agree to disagree here.

The last part is pretty critical... I would also consider the weapons load, and support assets that the make the F-22 and future F-35 what they are. They are 5th generation fighters largely because of the leap in communication capability, i.e. in acting as part of a larger information network. This was introduced first on various late 4th gen. western fighters, before making the decisive leap on the F-22 and F-35. Whether the PAK-FA is able to do this (and whether the VVS is able to create said network for the PAK-FA to exist within) is questionable.
I see -- so let's say PAK FA enters both Russian and Indian service, and then fast forward a decade:
Hypothetically, if the Indians (with more funding) can network their aircrafts better, and have better logistics and a larger variety of weapons, and just better general support while the Russians lag behind -- does that mean the IAF has a 5th gen aircraft while the Russians don't?
 
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