Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

Kiwigov

Member
I would also suggest having some form of E/O camera system incorporating IR, visual & thermal imaging and NVG, for both SAR and EEZ patrol/enforcement purposes. Unfortunately, as additional systems get incorporated to really make the helis viable for a maritime role, they become more expensive pieces of kit as well as having even less commonality amongst the training helis. However, they would still have greater commonality than a completely different dedicated helicopter design, unless the NZDF chose to completely replace the Seasprites with a different naval helicopter and purposed additional examples to operate from land bases as well as non-combatant RNZN vessels. The very real potential downside to the NZDF attempting something like this, is that a truly appropriate naval helicopter like the NFH-90 or MH-60R/S is not cheap, which means that any NDF purchase is most certainly going to be limited in quantity.

-Cheers

Apparently the 'optional auxiliary equipment' for the A109LUH includes a FLIR/TV sensors, and emergency floats (going by the manufacturer's brochure!) So these could readily be added to the baseline airframe for a naval patrol role.

Presumably the OPVs integral (commercial-spec) search radar would be the primary sensor, with the A109 used for over the horizon patrol and search and rescue, personnel transfer duties - not to mention expanded training for RNZAF and RNZN pilots.

Given there is no weapons magazine on the OPV the potential armament fit for the A109 could not be safely accommodated, and would not be necessary for any realistic patrol duties anyway. I do wonder about the practicality of removing and replacing the main rotor blades at sea - any expert advice?:confused:
 

KH-12

Member
Apparently the 'optional auxiliary equipment' for the A109LUH includes a FLIR/TV sensors, and emergency floats (going by the manufacturer's brochure!) So these could readily be added to the baseline airframe for a naval patrol role.

Presumably the OPVs integral (commercial-spec) search radar would be the primary sensor, with the A109 used for over the horizon patrol and search and rescue, personnel transfer duties - not to mention expanded training for RNZAF and RNZN pilots.

Given there is no weapons magazine on the OPV the potential armament fit for the A109 could not be safely accommodated, and would not be necessary for any realistic patrol duties anyway. I do wonder about the practicality of removing and replacing the main rotor blades at sea - any expert advice?:confused:
I was under the belief that the A109's had folding rotor blades (on the RNZAF website a dimension is listed for rotor folded configuration), might a mounted machine gun still be an option despite the lack of a weapons magazine.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Maybe the plan is to take the 25mm mounts from the OPV's and put them on the IPV's, if the plan was to use the OPV's in things like anti-piracy patrols some side mounted mini-typhoons might be appropriate for self defence.
I would need to hunt around to see if I can locate the IPV engineering drawings again. Depending on what they show, it might not really be viable to put a Typhoon mount with a 25mm cannon onto the IPV. A mini-Typhoon with a .50 cal HMG might be a possibility, but I do not think the IPV really needs a dedicated weapons mount. Unless of course the RNZN chooses to employ the vessel in a different way than expected. One must remember, the IPVs are just that, Inshore Patrol Vessels. As such, I would expect that they would have a minimal amount of operational time spent out of sight and/or transit time from NZ proper. The IPVs are most likely going to be doing SAR and EEZ patrol work either in NZ home waters (12 n mile limit) or very close to that. The OPVs are going to be the ones operating further afield from NZ landmasses, and therefore are more likely to be used in a situation where they might be called upon to fire a warning shot(s), or if things go completely pear-shaped, have to repel attacks.

The OPV's likely should be fitted with mini-Typhoons and/or an additional Typhoon mounting or two, to provide full coverage around the OPV vs. FIAC. Or as an alternate, possibly an additional Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS mounting with the B upgrade for use against FIAC. Not sure where a Phalanx could be mounted without requiring more yardwork and modification, but it might be possible.

In terms of armanent for the A109s if they operate from either the OPVs or additional RNZN minor warfare vessels, the only weaponry which would IMO make sense (and be safe to mount since the OPVs lack a helicopter magazine...) would be something along the lines of a 7.62 mm MG (M240 or MAG-58) and a .50 cal BMG anti-material rifle, or an M2 .50 cal HMG. Basically something large enough to fire warning shots and/or disable outboard motors of small vessels. Anything which would require more hardware/firepower to deal with should be handled by proper defence assets like the Seasprites, Orions or Anzac frigates.

-Cheers
 

htbrst

Active Member
Aren't the A109's usable at sea? So with the additional 3 being purchased they could be used on the OPV's and Canterbury.
Of course, theres the ex Aussie Seasprites Kaman may be keen to keen to see the back of. No doubt if they can be upgraded (or downgraded depending on your point of view) and purchased for relatively low cost - I cant envisage there are too many willing buyers out there given the low number of users.

No doubt more expensive to run than an A109, but probably more capable - and they will at least definitly have folding rotors and properly marinised. The OPV's can operate/fit the seasprite, and it would be nice to have a spare seasprite or two for the other RNZN vessels.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Of course, theres the ex Aussie Seasprites Kaman may be keen to keen to see the back of. No doubt if they can be upgraded (or downgraded depending on your point of view) and purchased for relatively low cost - I cant envisage there are too many willing buyers out there given the low number of users.

No doubt more expensive to run than an A109, but probably more capable - and they will at least definitly have folding rotors and properly marinised. The OPV's can operate/fit the seasprite, and it would be nice to have a spare seasprite or two for the other RNZN vessels.
I would honestly advise against purchasing the ex-RAN Seasprites for anything other than parts and perhaps spare airframes. The mission systems fitout (including cockpit) were completely different for the RAN Seasprites vs. the RNZAF Seasprites. That fitout, when coupled with changes to the Aussie rules in terms of airworthiness certification, was what led to the RAN helis being grounded for ~a decade, before they were retired without having ever entered service.

For Seasprites to be converted to the same type/standard used by the NZDF, they would have to effectively be rebuilt. Between the age of the design (late 50's, early 60's), the fact that it is something of an orphan platform with only a few users anymore, and IIRC the ex-RAN Seasprites were themselves re-manufactured from ex-USN Seasprites instead of new-built like the RNZAF Seasprites, purchasing additional units does not, to my mind at least, sound like a good or viable idea.

I do feel that some thought does need to be given to what will replace the Seasprite, even though there are a number of years service remaining in them. The best approach I would have for that, would be for the NZDF to initiate discussions with the ADF about the RAN Future Naval Helicopter programme. I suspect that whatever the RAN/ADF chooses would likely be the best naval helicopter choice for the NZDF as well. The two potential ADF criteria which I suspect would not matter so much to the NZDF is the soonest in-service date, and amount of local content. The other criteria like mission capabilities, size, logistical and training support, et al. I suspect would be very similar for both defence forces.

-Cheers
 

htbrst

Active Member
I would honestly advise against purchasing the ex-RAN Seasprites for anything other than parts and perhaps spare airframes. The mission systems fitout (including cockpit) were completely different for the RAN Seasprites vs. the RNZAF Seasprites. That fitout, when coupled with changes to the Aussie rules in terms of airworthiness certification, was what led to the RAN helis being grounded for ~a decade, before they were retired without having ever entered service.

For Seasprites to be converted to the same type/standard used by the NZDF, they would have to effectively be rebuilt. Between the age of the design (late 50's, early 60's), the fact that it is something of an orphan platform with only a few users anymore, and IIRC the ex-RAN Seasprites were themselves re-manufactured from ex-USN Seasprites instead of new-built like the RNZAF Seasprites, purchasing additional units does not, to my mind at least, sound like a good or viable idea.
-Cheers
Thanks for the reply - I agree NZ would want to operate a single standard seasprite, so I was more more thinking of picking up all 11 ex RAN seasprites and using their fitout (with limited changes e.g. introducing our machine gun mounts, maverick missile etc) as the standard version. Kaman seem to think that they are prefectly usable and now market them as the SH-2G(I) for international.

The current NZ seasprites would then be dropped and upgraded over time to the same standard (given they were new build), or used as a spares source along with a couple of the ex RAN ones.

IIRC the airworthyness issue was related to a contract requirement to certify the seasprite to certain civilian standards - standards which required the digital flight controls to also have backup digital flight controls. Kaman couldnt meet that side of the contract without signifigant work and it became a good excuse to cancel the contract - never mind that there were perfectly good mechanical backups.

If thats the case can NZ accept this "limitation" ? - what do the current NZ seasprites have ?

I think the Australian fitout was also trying to enable the seasprite to only need two crew for most missions. Given NZ uses three crew on the current seasprites they might not have so many workload issues related to the mission avionics.

Ultimately in the medium term, i'd prefer a few more seasprites and TTH NH90's than have to find the money for seahawks or ASW NH-90's
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Thanks for the reply - I agree NZ would want to operate a single standard seasprite, so I was more more thinking of picking up all 11 ex RAN seasprites and using their fitout (with limited changes e.g. introducing our machine gun mounts, maverick missile etc) as the standard version. Kaman seem to think that they are prefectly usable and now market them as the SH-2G(I) for international.

The current NZ seasprites would then be dropped and upgraded over time to the same standard (given they were new build), or used as a spares source along with a couple of the ex RAN ones.

IIRC the airworthyness issue was related to a contract requirement to certify the seasprite to certain civilian standards - standards which required the digital flight controls to also have backup digital flight controls. Kaman couldnt meet that side of the contract without signifigant work and it became a good excuse to cancel the contract - never mind that there were perfectly good mechanical backups.

If thats the case can NZ accept this "limitation" ? - what do the current NZ seasprites have ?

I think the Australian fitout was also trying to enable the seasprite to only need two crew for most missions. Given NZ uses three crew on the current seasprites they might not have so many workload issues related to the mission avionics.

Ultimately in the medium term, i'd prefer a few more seasprites and TTH NH90's than have to find the money for seahawks or ASW NH-90's
To my knowledge, the issue did indeed involve the lack of an acceptable digital flight control backup. This was a requirement for FAA civil flight air cert because the RAN Seasprites were only going to have two crew, a pilot and WSO. The ADF had chosen part way through the contract to follow the US FAA rules regarding flight cert, hence the required backup.

My understanding is that the reason why there were only two crew aboard the RAN Seasprites is that due to the mission systems and avionics, space/weight was required which precluded a co-pilot and/or the flight control equipment a co-pilot would use. Hence the cockpit layout being completely different. I could be mistaken, but I do not think that the RNZAF could have three people operate the ex-RAN Seasprites without changing the onboard systems and layout.

Kaman has gone on record that the Seasprites are safe to fly without the required digital backup, and instead having a manual backup IIRC. The issue with the certification is that because of the type of flight control it used, and would only have a single pilot, there needed to be a backup of the same type flight control. Such a backup could have been developed, but would have required additional funding and time.

With respect to NZ, the question then becomes what aviation rules does NZ follow? Australia had chosen to follow the US FAA rules, which was one of the problems. If NZ also follows the same rules, then either a waiver would be required, or the digital backup would need to be developed and installed. Or, the mission systems and avionics could be 'rolled back' to match those already in NZDF use.

Given the time required to reach a decision, as well as obtain any required waivers or modifications, I suspect that the ADF Future Naval Helicopter programme will already have commenced deliveries before any additional Seasprites would be able to enter inventory.

-Cheers
 

chis73

Active Member
Maybe the plan is to take the 25mm mounts from the OPV's and put them on the IPV's, if the plan was to use the OPV's in things like anti-piracy patrols some side mounted mini-typhoons might be appropriate for self defence.
May I respectfully suggest the 81mm mortar / 0.50 cal piggyback system for the foredeck of the IPV (courtesy of US Coast Guard). Seems to cover all the requirements - is cheap, and the ammunition should already be in the NZDF inventory . Should make even a supertanker sit up and take notice. Used successfully in Vietnam and comes with a very useful illumination option for SAR. I don't think we need to go into the merits of the anti-personnel flechette round for repelling boarders...:D.

Leave the OPV armament as is - they're never going to be warships

Chis73
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
To my knowledge, the issue did indeed involve the lack of an acceptable digital flight control backup. This was a requirement for FAA civil flight air cert because the RAN Seasprites were only going to have two crew, a pilot and WSO. The ADF had chosen part way through the contract to follow the US FAA rules regarding flight cert, hence the required backup.

My understanding is that the reason why there were only two crew aboard the RAN Seasprites is that due to the mission systems and avionics, space/weight was required which precluded a co-pilot and/or the flight control equipment a co-pilot would use. Hence the cockpit layout being completely different. I could be mistaken, but I do not think that the RNZAF could have three people operate the ex-RAN Seasprites without changing the onboard systems and layout.

Kaman has gone on record that the Seasprites are safe to fly without the required digital backup, and instead having a manual backup IIRC. The issue with the certification is that because of the type of flight control it used, and would only have a single pilot, there needed to be a backup of the same type flight control. Such a backup could have been developed, but would have required additional funding and time.

With respect to NZ, the question then becomes what aviation rules does NZ follow? Australia had chosen to follow the US FAA rules, which was one of the problems. If NZ also follows the same rules, then either a waiver would be required, or the digital backup would need to be developed and installed. Or, the mission systems and avionics could be 'rolled back' to match those already in NZDF use.

Given the time required to reach a decision, as well as obtain any required waivers or modifications, I suspect that the ADF Future Naval Helicopter programme will already have commenced deliveries before any additional Seasprites would be able to enter inventory.

-Cheers
If I remember correctly Kaman were hawking these ex Aussie Sprites to the Bulgarian Navy a few months back for about $12-15m a pop. Way cheaper than what we paid for the NZ version. I dont know whether the Kiwi versions were FAA certified but have a feeling they may have been. I do remember it was that Indian chap based in NSW who did the sign-off on them. From what I remember reading the (I) model (ex RAN) is now closer to the Kiwi configuration than the former RAN one. When they were shipped back stateside it seems that quite a bit of retro-fitting went on to get them "marketable" again before they were stored awaiting a potential buyer. That is a very significant point as it seems that the whole RAN issue did make Kaman out to be chumps and they would definately be chumps if they tried to sell anybody a chump chopper. Kamans battered reputation will need a simple Kosher chopper to put that right.

I haven't given our Sprites much thought, always thought they were a bit naff, but they're OK for now for what we require them for, though was worried that some penny-pinching bright spark in DefHQ might grab the Aussie ones after the rumours did he rounds last year. My point of view is that if the revised (I) model that Kaman are hawking on the cheap are certified to a reputable standard and the price is right they could be suitable as an interim purchase to see out this decade before a future naval helicopter is selected (NHF-90?). By then we will have a far clearer idea of what surface combatant will replace the current ANZAC's. Keep in mind that we will be back to 7 ships with deck/hanger facilities in a Navy of 11 ships sooner than people think and currently have only 5 sprites of which only 3 can be available for deployment. It might be worth as an interim measure the (I) if the price is right and get them in service to replace the older Kiwi version which are nearly 10 years old and will need an upgrade in 3 or so years. Of course as I said the priviso is they the (I) model are able to be FAA certified. I know that they are an unloved ugly duckling the Sprites - thats all Sprites I must add, but they are a Naval chopper and not an adhoc one like a A-109-LUH and the (I) is now not the (A). Same body, same heart, new brain. (an upgrade I wish I was sometimes available for MrsC);)
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
If I remember correctly Kaman were hawking these ex Aussie Sprites to the Bulgarian Navy a few months back for about $12-15m a pop. Way cheaper than what we paid for the NZ version. I dont know whether the Kiwi versions were FAA certified but have a feeling they may have been. I do remember it was that Indian chap based in NSW who did the sign-off on them. From what I remember reading the (I) model (ex RAN) is now closer to the Kiwi configuration than the former RAN one. When they were shipped back stateside it seems that quite a bit of retro-fitting went on to get them "marketable" again before they were stored awaiting a potential buyer. That is a very significant point as it seems that the whole RAN issue did make Kaman out to be chumps and they would definately be chumps if they tried to sell anybody a chump chopper. Kamans battered reputation will need a simple Kosher chopper to put that right.

I haven't given our Sprites much thought, always thought they were a bit naff, but they're OK for now for what we require them for, though was worried that some penny-pinching bright spark in DefHQ might grab the Aussie ones after the rumours did he rounds last year. My point of view is that if the revised (I) model that Kaman are hawking on the cheap are certified to a reputable standard and the price is right they could be suitable as an interim purchase to see out this decade before a future naval helicopter is selected (NHF-90?). By then we will have a far clearer idea of what surface combatant will replace the current ANZAC's. Keep in mind that we will be back to 7 ships with deck/hanger facilities in a Navy of 11 ships sooner than people think and currently have only 5 sprites of which only 3 can be available for deployment. It might be worth as an interim measure the (I) if the price is right and get them in service to replace the older Kiwi version which are nearly 10 years old and will need an upgrade in 3 or so years. Of course as I said the priviso is they the (I) model are able to be FAA certified. I know that they are an unloved ugly duckling the Sprites - thats all Sprites I must add, but they are a Naval chopper and not an adhoc one like a A-109-LUH and the (I) is now not the (A). Same body, same heart, new brain. (an upgrade I wish I was sometimes available for MrsC);)
Now, if the ex-RAN Seasprites have already been converted into an international fitout much more inline with what the NZDF already uses, especially if it were to be available for a low price and already be certified as flightworthy, then perhaps it might make sense for the NZDF to purchase some/all of them. Naval helicopters, much like transport and surveillance/patrol aircraft, are one of those assets which a defence force rarely ever has enough of. Partially due to cost, but also very often due to the multi-role capabilities and required work taskings.

The one area where I am not quite so certain about, is the need for Seasprite replacement. The RAN is rather desparate for a Future Naval helicopter, partially because the planned RAN SH-2G(A) Super Seasprite induction fell over. This left the RAN with a Fleet Air Arm of only 16 naval helicopters, instead of the expected 27 helicopters. Between having nearly half the expected numbers of helicopters with the corresponding increase in aircraft flight hours, and the fact that the existing naval helicopters are S70-B-2 Seahawks from the mid to late 80's which IIRC were not upgraded as much as they perhaps should have been... The RAN is looking at a looming capability crunch where in the near future, naval helicopters with the capabilities the RAN wants/needs to have might be unavailable on demand. Hence the Future Naval Helicopter being a programme of urgency.

To my understand, given RNZAF usage of the Seasprites, they should begin being replaced either towards the end of this decade, or in the early 2020's. Essentially a timeframe perhaps 5-10 years after the RAN is going to want to begin replacing its naval helicopters.

This means that from a timing perspective, the NZDF has some advantages which the RAN/ADF do not. The NZDF has the ability to allow more development time so that naval helicopter designs like the NDH-90 can mature, and perhaps become MOTS. Additionally, more time could allow a better idea of the future RNZN fleet makeup, which could impact which naval helicopters are appropriate. IIRC the Anzac FFH hangar is supposed to be a rather tight fit for NH-90 helicopters, if the future RNZN frigate has a hangar of similar size, then an NFH-90 would likely be too large to really be appropriate. OTOH if the RNZN goes with the RAN for a common-hulled Anzac II frigate, a larger hangar might be an option.

The one argument I have for the NZDF looking at replacing the Seasprites sooner, rather than later, or at least placing the order to replace them, if the possibility of a joint Oz/Kiwi naval helicopter purchase. The RAN is looking for at least 24 advanced naval helicopters, with the appropriate training, logistical and support facilities. The NZDF would likely be interested in between 5-9 examples of a naval helicopter, and if things were handled correctly, a Kiwi order, or the Kiwi portion of a joint order could possibly be timed to commence with the last deliveries to the RAN. The manufacturer would like that, since it would keep the production line open just that much longer. Having a common platform would ease interoperability between RAN and RNZN assets, as well joint ops activities like crossdecking. Of potentially even greater benefit is that by increasing the aircraft pool between the RAN and NZDF, it could reduce the per unit training, support and upgrade costs.

Ideally what I would like to see, is an NFH-90 model aircraft, with the heli composite flooring and engine issues resolve, equipped with the avionics and mission systems of the MH-60R 'Romeo', enter RAN and RNZN service. Time will tell if that ever happens or not.

-Cheers

PS You might want to watch that last line... It could come back to haunt you!;)
 
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Gibbo

Well-Known Member
I was under the belief that the A109's had folding rotor blades (on the RNZAF website a dimension is listed for rotor folded configuration), might a mounted machine gun still be an option despite the lack of a weapons magazine.
I emailed Phil Goff just after the order was confirmed (pre-election so he was still DefMin) - he confirmed whereas the NH-90 would have folding blades, the AW109 (to give it the correct name) would NOT have folding blades. Hopeless considering one of the selling points was there ability to operate from RNZN vessels! :flaming

He did mention also that the AW109 would be overseas deployable for up to 2 months (no further detail).
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Maybe the plan is to take the 25mm mounts from the OPV's and put them on the IPV's, if the plan was to use the OPV's in things like anti-piracy patrols some side mounted mini-typhoons might be appropriate for self defence.
Yeah I reckon the upgrades for OPV's will be relatively minor. Weapons - I'd suspect not much more than adding side & rear facing mini-typhoons. Sensors - hard to say, perhaps similar to existing but more powerful.

We have to remember the OPV's have a well documented weight issue going forward and there simply isn't the capacity to add anything significant.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I emailed Phil Goff just after the order was confirmed (pre-election so he was still DefMin) - he confirmed whereas the NH-90 would have folding blades, the AW109 (to give it the correct name) would NOT have folding blades. Hopeless considering one of the selling points was there ability to operate from RNZN vessels! :flaming

He did mention also that the AW109 would be overseas deployable for up to 2 months (no further detail).
Thanks Gibbo - that is very very interesting to know. Not only Goff did not order enough of them but they were not ordered with folding blades. I just naturally assumed that they were - like pretty much most people. Reading what Goff in his email to you makes me shake my head in total disbelief .... They couldn't even get that right.

The question is - if he said they were deployable for up to 2 months - what I want to know is how? With fixed rotors - where? Did somebody get a tape measure out and measure the internal dimensions of the Cantebury's hanger and hangar door? Oh - tie them down on the flight deck - yeah right - top shelf asset protection that - thinking the way that barge rolls around. Real Keystone Cops stuff!

Tod is correct that the HN-90 is a tight fit on the Anzacs. I had forgotten that. Now the Sprite is a bit of a squeeze also on the OPV's iirc. Can be done though.
 
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chis73

Active Member
Littoral Support vessel?

Just thinking about the proposed Littorial Support ship mentioned in the Defence White Paper(the replacement for Manawanui, and to a lesser extent Resolution & Kahu). First thoughts were - crumbs - here we go again, another Canterbury debacle coming up. Looks like they want to shoehorn too many things into a single vessel again. What can they possibly hope to achieve with a one-ship mine clearance force?

Why don't they put an offer in for at least 2 of the Canadians' Kingston class mcdvs, gain 15 years of experience in mine clearance, and then decide what they really need. Last I heard the Canadians were going to mothball half of them as they couldn't find crews. Although they are steel hulled, they at least have diesel electric drive & degaussing coils (many fitted with cables only however, no control cabinets). The modular payloads would cover our diving support, route survey & ROV needs. Remote mine clearance has come on leaps and bounds since the Kingston class first entered service - so they are actually getting better for this role.

Just seems a better, more versatile, option to me. We need some 'donkey'-boats to carry out the donkey work.

Chis73
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Thanks Gibbo - that is very very interesting to know. Not only Goff did not order enough of them but they were not ordered with folding blades. I just naturally assumed that they were - like pretty much most people. Reading what Goff in his email to you makes me shake my head in total disbelief .... They couldn't even get that right.

The question is - if he said they were deployable for up to 2 months - what I want to know is how? With fixed rotors - where? Did somebody get a tape measure out and measure the internal dimensions of the Cantebury's hanger and hangar door? Oh - tie them down on the flight deck - yeah right - top shelf asset protection that - thinking the way that barge rolls around. Real Keystone Cops stuff!

Tod is correct that the HN-90 is a tight fit on the Anzacs. I had forgotten that. Now the Sprite is a bit of a squeeze also on the OPV's iirc. Can be done though.
There are solutions available for storing non folding blades helicopters aboard the Canterbury. Helicopters built and bought for army/air force aren't helicopters built and bought for the navy. The A-109s NZ ordered are not naval helicopters although naval A-109s exists. See video:

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bXqbxVtblU"]YouTube - Navy Ship Gets Huey Choppers[/nomedia]
 
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Sea Toby

New Member
Just thinking about the proposed Littorial Support ship mentioned in the Defence White Paper(the replacement for Manawanui, and to a lesser extent Resolution & Kahu). First thoughts were - crumbs - here we go again, another Canterbury debacle coming up. Looks like they want to shoehorn too many things into a single vessel again. What can they possibly hope to achieve with a one-ship mine clearance force?

Why don't they put an offer in for at least 2 of the Canadians' Kingston class mcdvs, gain 15 years of experience in mine clearance, and then decide what they really need. Last I heard the Canadians were going to mothball half of them as they couldn't find crews. Although they are steel hulled, they at least have diesel electric drive & degaussing coils (many fitted with cables only however, no control cabinets). The modular payloads would cover our diving support, route survey & ROV needs. Remote mine clearance has come on leaps and bounds since the Kingston class first entered service - so they are actually getting better for this role.

Just seems a better, more versatile, option to me. We need some 'donkey'-boats to carry out the donkey work.

Chis73
The Canadian ships are for inshore duties, and have been noted for poor seakeeping. They are so poor as offshore patrol roles, the Canadian coast guard refused them and are buying icebreaking OPVs. The Canadians bought them for use by their reserves. Of the twelve ships they purchased only 4 MCM modules.

NZ requires a hydrographic/oceanographic ship which can double as diving tender/mine countermeasures vessel. A hydrographic ship is considerably larger than a mine hunter and have the space available for other missions besides hydrographic. Appears in this age of budget cuts NZ chose correctly to combine the two vessels into one...

Its not as if NZ has two or three mine countermeasures ships in their fleet today anyway...
 
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MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
There are solutions available for storing non folding blades helicopters aboard the Canterbury. Helicopter built and bought for army/air force aren't helicopters built and bought for the navy. The A-109s NZ ordered are not naval helicopters although naval A-109s exists. See below video:

YouTube - Navy Ship Gets Huey Choppers
Maybe Toby. Your talking about actually removing the rotors aren't you? But the issue really is that the LUH should have been ordered with folding blades. You would agree with me on that I know. Again it is an example of the poor aquistition processes and co-ordination of the under the previous governments watch. There were so called advisors in Defence influencing the show who did not know much about anything. Defence systems and military technology being primary knowlege gaps.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
The Canadian ships are for inshore duties, and have been noted for poor seakeeping. They are so poor at offshore patrol roles, the Canadian coast guard refused them and are buying icebreaking OPVs.

NZ requires a hydrographic/oceanographic ship which can double as diving tender/mine countermeasures vessel. A hydrographic ship is considerably larger than a mine hunter and have the space available for other missions besides hydrographic. Appears in this age of budget cuts NZ chose correctly to combine the two vessels into one...

Its not as if NZ has two or three mine countermeasures ships in their fleet today anyway...
I think the plan is for hydrographic survey to be done by NIWA and not by the Navy in the future, NIWA have been into HS for some time. NZ will get its HS ship but it will be owned by another govt agency which already possesses research vessels.
 

chis73

Active Member
I think the plan is for hydrographic survey to be done by NIWA and not by the Navy in the future, NIWA have been into HS for some time. NZ will get its HS ship but it will be owned by another govt agency which already possesses research vessels.
Pretty sure Mr C is right, at least for the deep sea ocean mapping stuff. Inshore & coastal survey would be a different matter. It seems odd to me that the Navy has held the hydrographic role so long, even to the point of purchasing dedicated ships for the role (ie Resolution). Especially when you have a government funded oceanic research organisation & vessel available. Must have been a nice revenue earner or something. Note that Wayne Mapp is also the Science Minister as well as Defence.

So, the proposed littoral support ship is likely to be more focussed on diving support, ROV & mine detection operations (as Manawanui is now).

Of course, an alternative to an MCDV would be one of the Huon class minehunters that the Aussies have mothballed. But if they can't afford to run them, then I don't see how NZ would be able to.

Chis73
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Pretty sure Mr C is right, at least for the deep sea ocean mapping stuff. Inshore & coastal survey would be a different matter. It seems odd to me that the Navy has held the hydrographic role so long, even to the point of purchasing dedicated ships for the role (ie Resolution). Especially when you have a government funded oceanic research organisation & vessel available. Must have been a nice revenue earner or something. Note that Wayne Mapp is also the Science Minister as well as Defence.

So, the proposed littoral support ship is likely to be more focussed on diving support, ROV & mine detection operations (as Manawanui is now).

Of course, an alternative to an MCDV would be one of the Huon class minehunters that the Aussies have mothballed. But if they can't afford to run them, then I don't see how NZ would be able to.

Chis73
I believe it will also be a defacto EEZ patrol vessel as have been the Manawanui and Resolution as there has been a Patrol Shortage for over a decade, albeit faster than the M & R of course. As well have limited sealift to support government agencies such as DOC, MFish. The small Cat vessel the Adventure does most of the inshore work and I wonder if that will be transferred or sold?

Has anyone got any developments concerning MFish and Customs patrol craft. From memory Customs were interested in QWests 19m Cats that the Police Maritime Unit have and MFish's craft are aging. Both have struggled with undersized vessels. However, I dont think that the 19m QWest Cats really cuts the mustard other than Police work. Quick but range not good enough.

I am of the view that synergies between the various Govt agencies who are involved in or have an interest in our inshore maritime environment need to have a fresh look. We need better capability and better efficency in this area. I would even draw into this Review the role of the RNZVNR and how they could be involved. The disappointment for many was that 7 Moa class that were all in service up until 2000; were not replaced one for one with the IPV's. That was purely part of the political penny pinching that lead the Protector project.
 
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