South Korean navy ship sunk by North?

[furymonkey]

Just not long ago a South Korea Navy ship was sunk near the Baengnyeong island, which is pretty close to the Northern Limit Line. Since this is a disputed boundary, small skirmish occurs often with the North Korean. What this interested me is, unlike previous skirmishs, a (1200 or 1500) tons naval ship was sunk.

Even thought most of the source says it's unknown if North Korea are part of it, but I am pretty sure it is due to the location of the incident. Last known clash was at November last year, a North Korean patrol boat sailed away in flame after some fire exchange.

Now I have serveral questions. What does it take to sink a 1200 or 1500 tons naval ship? Is this some kind of lucky shots? Or do North really have some weapons up in their sleeve?

And is this a payback attempt by the North Korean or simply just the usual North Korea grabbing attention scheme? I meant normally sinking such a ship would really tense up the realtionship between the two countries, what are they trying to achieve?

Sorry I can't attach links to the source, but it is pretty hot news at the moment. It can be found easily on any major news site.

Excuse my lack of knowledge in this area.

 

[OPSSG]

Thanks for starting the thread.

Red Alert: South Korean Ship Sinking In Yellow Sea

According to South Korea’s Yonhap News Agency, a 1,500-ton naval vessel with a crew of 104 sank off of the island of Baengnyeong in the Yellow Sea on March 26. Based on size and crew displacement it is likely either an Ulsan-class guided missile frigate or a Po Hang-class corvette.

The incident took place between 9 and 10 p.m. local time. The cause is unknown, but the BBC has reported that a torpedo was involved. Seoul has said there was an explosion at the stern, and it is investigating whether a torpedo attack from North Korea was the cause, according to YTN TV.

The contested waters between North and South Korea do see the occasional naval clashes, but the loss of a surface combatant on this scale would be extremely significant.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgJVr6nQ2gs"]YouTube- Quick Take: A Crisis in the Yellow Sea[/ame]

Early reports suggest a torpedo attack but it is important to note that S. Korean "officials have yet to determine the exact cause of the incident." Vessels of this size are not expected to survive a successful heavy weight torpedo attack and that damage control procedures can only do so much in such a circumstance.

If it is indeed a N. Korean attack on a S. Korean navy ship, this would be very bad news for the N. Korean Navy, if the S. Koreans decide that a military response is necessary and if such a military response would be limited to only to naval options.

 

[merocaine]

Thanks for starting the thread.



Early reports suggest a torpedo attack but it is important to note that S. Korean "officials have yet to determine the exact cause of the incident." Vessels of this size are not expected to survive a successful heavy weight torpedo attack and that damage control procedures can only do so much in such a circumstance.

If it is indeed a N. Korean attack on a S. Korean navy ship, this would be very bad news for the N. Korean Navy, if the S. Koreans decide that a military response is necessary and if such a military response would be limited to only to naval options.

An Accident, or if the Norks were involved probably a mine, I don't imagine that the Norks would be able to make a clean getaway if they launched a torpedo.

 

[Todjaeger]

An Accident, or if the Norks were involved probably a mine, I don't imagine that the Norks would be able to make a clean getaway if they launched a torpedo.

Perhaps, perhaps not. From what I remember, North Korea has made a significant number of mini-subs, so one of them firing off a torpedo is a possibility. In such a situation South Korea might not know exactly what happened depending on how quickly the incident took place.

It is also possible that South Korea knows exactly what occurred and just have not made any definite statements as well.

We will need to wait and see what additional information becomes available. In particular I would be interested in knowing the timeframe from when the vessel was struck to sinking. If the vessel went down quickly, that would suggest significant hull damage which in turn would suggest either a mine or torpedo. If it sank slowly, that would suggest that the hull was compromised with sufficient damage to eventually overcome damage control.

-Cheers

 

[Waylander]

Why shouldn't the North Koreans get away with firing a torpedo at a ROK patrol ship? It's not as if every patrol is supported by a sub hunting group.

 

[Neutral Zone]

BBC News - South Korean navy ship sinks near sea border with North


South Korean navy ship sinks near sea border with North

About 40 sailors are missing after a South Korean navy ship sank near the border with North Korea, Yonhap news agency said citing military officials.

The patrol vessel, with 104 people aboard, sank after an unexplained explosion tore through its hull.

Several sailors also died, officials are quoted saying as divers prepared to return to the scene after daybreak.

South Korean officials played down earlier reports that it may have been the result of an attack by North Korea.

There was no sign of the North's military in the area where the ship sank, Yonhap said citing officials.

The military earlier said 58 sailors were rescued from near Baengnyeong island by several navy and coastguard vessels.

South Korean President Lee Myung-bak, who had convened an emergency meeting of security officials, had ordered the military to focus on rescuing the sailors, Yonhap news agency reported.

The police force was put on heightened alert in the capital, Seoul.

The Cheonan, a 1,200-tonne corvette, began sinking about 2130 local time (1230 GMT) on Friday, after an explosion, the South Korean Navy said.

A South Korean presidential spokeswoman said it was premature to say what caused the Cheonan to sink.

Strained ties

There were reports that another South Korean ship had fired shots toward an unidentified ship in the North following the alleged torpedo attack.

One report, quoting the joint chiefs of staff, said the target turned out to be a flock of birds.

The apparent clash comes at a time of tension between the two Koreas. International talks aimed at ending the communist nation's nuclear ambitions have been stalled for months.

Economic ties between the neighbours have also faltered, with continuing rows over both cross-border tourism and a joint economic zone at Kaesong.

The disputed sea boundary itself has seen numerous incidents, most recently in January and February.

In January, North Korea fired artillery into the sea near the disputed maritime border, as part of a "military drill". South Korea returned fire, but no injuries were reported.

The following month, North Korea declared four areas near the sea border to be naval firing zones, according to the South Korean military, and deployed multiple rocket launchers close to the frontier.

Deadly naval clashes happened in 1999 and in 2002 and the latest in November 2009 when a fire-fight left a North Korean patrol boat in flames and one person dead.

The South Korean vessel alleged that the North Korean vessel had crossed the disputed sea border - a charge North Korea denied.

South Korea recognises the Northern Limit Line, drawn unilaterally by the US-led United Nations Command to demarcate the sea border at the end of the 1950-53 Korean War. The line has never been accepted by North Korea.

=============================================

Sounds like the ROK are downplaying the seriousness of the incident. If it does turn out to be the result of a torpedo attack then there will stern repercussions, probably diplomatic and economic on the DPRK. I can't see any ROK or US military response as that runs the risk of escalating into a full blown war.

We just have to wait and see what the ROK Navy establishes.

 

[Thiel]

I don't think it was a mini sub. Due to their limited speed and endurance, you pretty much have to know exactly when and where your target is in advance. None of the previous clashes has shown anywhere near the necessary degree of planning necessary. I'm not saying they couldn't do it, there's just helluva difference between taking a patrol boat across the border, to deliberately ambush a warship with a sub.

Personally, I lean towards the mine theory. It doesn't even have to be a North Korean one. It could be an old US one from the Korean war, or a Soviet one from immediately after WWII, or even a Japanese one from when they occupied Korea.
Around here (Denmark) we still fish up WWI vintage and older mines from time to time, though the majority is from WWII, despite almost 65 years of organized minesweeping..

 

[Todjaeger]

I don't think it was a mini sub. Due to their limited speed and endurance, you pretty much have to know exactly when and where your target is in advance. None of the previous clashes has shown anywhere near the necessary degree of planning necessary. I'm not saying they couldn't do it, there's just helluva difference between taking a patrol boat across the border, to deliberately ambush a warship with a sub.

Personally, I lean towards the mine theory. It doesn't even have to be a North Korean one. It could be an old US one from the Korean war, or a Soviet one from immediately after WWII, or even a Japanese one from when they occupied Korea.
Around here (Denmark) we still fish up WWI vintage and older mines from time to time, though the majority is from WWII, despite almost 65 years of organized minesweeping..

I disagree slightly on the mini-sub possibility. As I understand it the North Korean mini-subs are usually used for infiltration/exfiltration or other intel purposes. As such, one could have been operating in the area (perhaps about to be discovered by the ROK Navy) and then fired upon the patrol vessel. I do agree that a mini-sub being deliberately sent to engage a ship is unlikely, unless it were to occur as part of some larger engagement. The IJN mini-sub incursions around Pearl Harbor immediately prior to the attack on December 7th, 1941 comes to mind as an example, though this does not seem to be the case in this incident.

Definately agree that an errant mine could be responsible as well. It could even have been some weapon or equipment malfunction aboard the vessel itself which was the culprit. As others have noted, we will just have to wait and see.

-Cheers

 

[OPSSG]

According to CNN:

"...The South Korean government issued a statement saying it wasn't ruling out some sort of military engagement. An explosion had occurred in the rear of the ship, leaving a large [hole] below the water line, officials told Yonhap..."​

Just a quick note to say that the, the vessel affected, the ROKS Cheonan (PCC-772) is a Pohang-class patrol corvette of the South Korean Navy and it's quite large as patrol vessels go. DT members have speculated on the cause and there are three possibilities:

(i) an accident/malfunction on the ROKS Cheonan (could the explosion at the rear of the corvette be caused by depth charges?);
(ii) the ROKS Cheonan hit a naval mine; and
(iii) a North Korean torpedo attack.​

If is not possibility (i) listed above, I would expect the S. Korean government to be in the know on what happened. They could be using this time to craft an appropriate response. While the N. Koreans have a track record of deliberate and provocative incidents but even they must know that a torpedo attack on the ROKS Cheona is an act of war. IMO, we'll need to wait to see how this develops.

Edit: In the latest news reports, Reuters is saying that a North link is 'unlikely' but an investigation on the cause is underway.

 

[Feanor]

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RoK claims that it was unlikely to be a DPRK vessel.

So. We're back to accident and mine.

 

[the road runner]

I was thinking a torpedo/mine or accident when i first saw the story of the sinking of the RoK vessel.

After reading the above posts,i thought of another possible scenario.Could a Bomb have been smuggled onto the ship by spies ect, then detonated (like an IED) with a timer or remote control?

Regards

 

[lopez]

I was thinking a torpedo/mine or accident when i first saw the story of the sinking of the RoK vessel.

After reading the above posts,i thought of another possible scenario.Could a Bomb have been smuggled onto the ship by spies ect, then detonated (like an IED) with a timer or remote control?

Regards

though possible .i would think, that would be a lot of risk on the Norths behalf for very little gain.

 

[Bunkerbomber]

It would be helpful to see what kind of damage was done to the hull. Especially if the hull looks pushed in or bulging out would be a good factor on what happened.

 

[gf0012-aust]

It would be helpful to see what kind of damage was done to the hull. Especially if the hull looks pushed in or bulging out would be a good factor on what happened.

The hull has been cleanly sheered in half. Its back was broken by the event.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vmZKvm6DAw"]YouTube- Search Continues for Survivors After South Korean Ship Explodes in North Korean Waters[/nomedia]

 

[uuname]

The hull has been cleanly sheered in half. Its back was broken by the event.

That's the way torpedos work, isn't it?
Explode underneath, lift them out of the water, and break the back. The video of Torrens being sunk showed that quite well.

Is there anything else likely to cause that kind of damage?

 

[Thiel]

That's the way torpedos work, isn't it?
Explode underneath, lift them out of the water, and break the back. The video of Torrens being sunk showed that quite well.

Is there anything else likely to cause that kind of damage?

A mine

 

[Feanor]

An internal explosion, if it was big enough.

 

[furymonkey]

The hull has been cleanly sheered in half. Its back was broken by the event.

YouTube- Search Continues for Survivors After South Korean Ship Explodes in North Korean Waters

Wait... it exploded "within" the North Korean waters?

 

[Thiel]

Wait... it exploded "within" the North Korean waters?

That's a bit tricky to answer. It was south of the line, but North Korea doesn't recognize the line.

 

[Firn]

S. Korea Says Mine May Have Hit Ship

BAENGNYEONG ISLAND, South Korea (AP) -- South Korea's defense minister says North Korea may have intentionally floated a mine to damage a naval ship that exploded and sank this week.

Forty-six crew members are missing and believed trapped within the wreckage of the ship, which went down Friday. Fifty-eight were rescued

While the cause of the explosion is unknown, Defense Minister Kim Tae-young told lawmakers in Seoul on Monday that rival North Korea may have floated a mine toward the ship. He also said the explosion could have been caused by a mine placed during the Korean War.

As we know no details it is impossible to work that one out for us, less so for the South Korean and even less so for the North Korean defense minister. To sum it up a mine seems to have hit the ship in "disputed waters". Was it in an area where mines could have been placed during or after the Korean war? Was the specific area which sweeped befor?

It is indeed hard to believe that an area, which was possibly heavily mined in older days and which was patrolled by the SK navy was not object to close demining scrutiny. If the SK navy did act responsibly there seem to remain only two probable events:

a) An old, fixed mine was displaced by some accident and shifted into the path of the ship

b) A new mine was floated into the disputed area patrolled by South Korea. (A torpedo would just compound NK intentions.)


Chances are high that multiple mines were involved, especially in the latter case and sweeps in areas into which said mines could have floated due to the currents might yield interesting insights. Indeed read the following excerpt:

The exact cause of the explosion -- one of South Korea's worst naval disasters -- remained unclear, and officials said it could take weeks to determine.

Rough waves and high winds over the weekend prevented military divers from gaining access the wreckage lying under water near Baengnyeong Island in the west.

Firn