The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

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1805

New Member
kev 99 said:
Number of Astutes is dependent on Vanguard Successor programme, if we don't get 7 then people get laid off meaning skills are lost and the first of class successor will be late and over budget, okay chances are it will anyway but even more so with a build gap in Astutes.
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I would rather they did order 7-8 I just think with the poor economic timing the Government, which ever colour, will go for 6, I can also see comparisons with the French. I think we are probably already subcritical on the production cycle of nuclear boats. I would think if they have a 30ish year life cycle then a critical volume would be c4/decade. If only the Astutes had been built on a slightly more modest basis and at a slower rate. I don't know when the SSBN relacements will be finished c 2030? But that might leave a 10 years gap, which if it happens must be the death of a UK capability. They should order and build as the USN does its CVNs one after the other. I don't mean delaying existing orders that just wastes money, but a planned steady production.

Are there alternative buy off the self from the US, or a joint programme with France (I won't mention India)?
 
A

AndrewMI

New Member
1805 said:
I would rather they did order 7-8 I just think with the poor economic timing the Government, which ever colour, will go for 6, I can also see comparisons with the French. I think we are probably already subcritical on the production cycle of nuclear boats. I would think if they have a 30ish year life cycle then a critical volume would be c4/decade. If only the Astutes had been built on a slightly more modest basis and at a slower rate. I don't know when the SSBN relacements will be finished c 2030? But that might leave a 10 years gap, which if it happens must be the death of a UK capability. They should order and build as the USN does its CVNs one after the other. I don't mean delaying existing orders that just wastes money, but a planned steady production.

Are there alternative buy off the self from the US, or a joint programme with France (I won't mention India)?
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I agree. What happens to the UK sub builders after the new SSBN has to be looked at. The same problems that occured in between Vanguard (of the late 1990's and early 2000's) and Astute (now) will happen again. Perhaps on a greater scale.

Whether that means building 6-7 astute, then 4 SSBN, then a further batch of Astute (or sucessor - SSN's do not need to be developed much further) afterwards at a slow pace that seems sensible. The skill s are retained and this can continue until the next SSBN are needed.
 
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AndrewMI

New Member
swerve said:
Yes, & if published plans are followed we'll have slightly more C1 than 2087s, so the first two, replacing T22s, may well not get a TAS, at least to start with.

However, ASW is a primary role of T26. At some point, the 2087s will have to be pulled from T23s, refurbished, & fitted to T26s. While I've not seen anything definite on this, there have been quite a few hints that it won't wait for 2087-fitted T23s to retire, but will be done at refits. Well, we'll see - but not for quite a while, eh?

The eight 2087 T23s are currently scheduled to retire between 2028 & 2036. The five without should retire from 2023 to 2027.
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I thought the main roles were ASW and Deep Strike?

The ability to support troops inland certainly seems to be the vogue these days.

I think the ship will be larger than we think, with space for a variety of capabilities at the rear of the ship. Large flight deck for helicopters and UAV/UCAV. The flight deck I think will be quite high up on the ship - not too high - so that there can be a rear mission area for TAS and or other mission deck space.

We know it will have CAAM
We know it will have TAS
We know it will have Artisan
We know it will have a main gun (this may be 4.5 or a new 155)
We know it will have space for a minimum of one helicopter

We think it will have Harpoon
We think it will have TLAM
We think it will have a couple of CIWS.

We know it will not have Aster 15/30 (although it may be capable of carrying them)
We do not know how many silos it will have
We do not know how many aircraft it will be capable of carrying
We do not know how big it will be, other than 6,000 tonnes had been mooted.
We do not know what kind of silo it will carry (but it will be wither Mk.41/SYLVER
 
kev 99

kev 99

Member
AndrewMI said:
We think it will have TLAM

We do not know how many silos it will have
We do not know how many aircraft it will be capable of carrying
We do not know what kind of silo it will carry (but it will be wither Mk.41/SYLVER
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TLAM is anything but certain.

The only model that we've seen as a possible C1 had what could well of been a bespoke vertical launcher for CAAM although numbers of cells are uncertain, no LACM and a hanger for 1 helicopter and a smaller one for a rotary (Firescout sized) UAV.
 
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A

AndrewMI

New Member
kev 99 said:
TLAM is anything but certain.

The only model that we've seen as a possible C1 had what could well of been a bespoke vertical launcher for CAAM although numbers of cells are uncertain, no LACM and a hanger for 1 helicopter and a smaller one for a rotary (Firescout sized) UAV.
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Agree - it is not certain. However given the role envisaged i would suggest it is likely to be included.

With CAAM i cannot recall whether they would be quad packed into Sylver, and if so whether they could be (is it a cold launch?) launched by hydraulics as opposed to a hot launch.

I think it will be a capable ship, or at least "fitted for but not with" capable
 
kev 99

kev 99

Member
Campaigners delighted by MP’s sub pledge

Published at 13:12, Wednesday, 24 March 2010

A MINISTER has pledged the government will order seven Astute class nuclear submarines and four successor submarines for the Trident nuclear deterrent.

By Jon Simpson

Only four Astutes are on order with BAE at present and there have been fears that because of the financial crisis some could be cut.

But defence minister Quentin Davies made the pledge for orders for both Astute and Trident Successor submarines yesterday in London at a face-to-face meeting with a delegation from the Keep Our Future Afloat Campaign from Barrow.

Delegation members were elated after their hour-long meeting with Mr Davies.

The meeting came as Labour prepares for a general election battle. Kofac chairman Terry Waiting, who led the delegation, said the assurances given meant there would be work for Barrow shipyard into the 2030s.

Mr Davies, minister for defence procurement and support, told Kofac: “The government is totally committed to building seven Astute class submarines. There is no doubt at all that Britain needs them.”

On Trident, Gordon Brown said earlier this year the government would consider operating with three submarines instead of four to save money if that was viable.

But Mr Davies told Kofac the three boat plan had been dumped.

Mr Waiting said: “The government’s policies offer clear prospects for the industry to sustain jobs until 2030 at least. The government is also committed to keeping capital allowance for manufacturing firms in the supply chain to encourage them to invest.

“The message from government could not have been more positive, we are delighted with the outcome of today’s meeting and I am sure the workforce and the whole submarine supply chain (of firms) will be too”.

John Fallows, the secretary of the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions for the Barrow yard , joined the delegation, said: “ It was better than an assurance, it was a commitment. He pledged seven Astutes and four successors and he does not want a break in production. He has pledged that funding will be found and there will be no breaks.

“It is very good news for people looking for long-term employment in the north west and very good news for apprenticeships.”
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Since they probably won't be in power after the next General Election it may or may not make a difference but showing commitment at least might make a difference for future labour Governments.
 
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AndrewMI

New Member
kev 99 said:
Since they probably won't be in power after the next General Election it may or may not make a difference but showing commitment at least might make a difference for future labour Governments.
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So true...

It is important for the country to invest in such blue chip weapons as SSBN, SSN and CV.

For SSBN the benefits are obvious.

For SSN and CV they represent the ultimate in conventional co-ercion and firepower.

Ideally, you would say 8 Astute - but at least a "commitment" as such is a good start.
 
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1805

New Member
kev 99 said:
Since they probably won't be in power after the next General Election it may or may not make a difference but showing commitment at least might make a difference for future labour Governments.
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Agreed but it does make it more difficult to rat on a commitment. It also puts pressure on the Tories. I just wish for once the RN could replace something without trying to push the boundries so much we end up with a technology leap and corresponding cost "like building the Space Shuttle" and about the same numbers built!
 
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MrQuintus

New Member
AndrewMI said:
So true...

It is important for the country to invest in such blue chip weapons as SSBN, SSN and CV.

For SSBN the benefits are obvious.

For SSN and CV they represent the ultimate in conventional co-ercion and firepower.

Ideally, you would say 8 Astute - but at least a "commitment" as such is a good start.
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I think that we will get boat 8 (since when has any sub design happened on time) as for post Vclass replacement, I say we just keep building the SSBN design until we need to replace the Astutes, I'm sure the RN wouldn't mind a few SSGNs, it would also increase the security of the actual nuclear deterant patrol to have non nuke armed subs that are identical at sea.
 
StevoJH

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
MrQuintus said:
I think that we will get boat 8 (since when has any sub design happened on time) as for post Vclass replacement, I say we just keep building the SSBN design until we need to replace the Astutes, I'm sure the RN wouldn't mind a few SSGNs, it would also increase the security of the actual nuclear deterant patrol to have non nuke armed subs that are identical at sea.
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No, design the next class of SSN while the SSBN's are under construction and start building them as soon as the last SSBN leaves the build hall.
 
A

AndrewMI

New Member
MrQuintus said:
I think that we will get boat 8 (since when has any sub design happened on time) as for post Vclass replacement, I say we just keep building the SSBN design until we need to replace the Astutes, I'm sure the RN wouldn't mind a few SSGNs, it would also increase the security of the actual nuclear deterant patrol to have non nuke armed subs that are identical at sea.
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I doubt it would be an SSGN. Perhaps it could have a mission space where the nukes would be? Complete with a mini sub for instance? That may be a better use. Very expensive mind...
 
StevoJH

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
AndrewMI said:
That is way to sensible...

Presume the Aussies still don't fancy an SSN?
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Labor Party are anti-nuclear. Even if the RAN wanted them the politicians would say no. Wouldn't help Barrow anyway, though either UK or US firms would have to provide the nuclear core, the submarine itself would have to be built here.
 
A

AndrewMI

New Member
StevoJH said:
Labor Party are anti-nuclear. Even if the RAN wanted them the politicians would say no. Wouldn't help Barrow anyway, though either UK or US firms would have to provide the nuclear core, the submarine itself would have to be built here.
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Agreed - but the design of the sub would presumably be built under licence?



Interesting problems regarding the budget yesterday. It is hard to see how much can be trimmed from the defence budget (if at all) given the following issues:

Afghanistan (major op for army, navy (logistics) and air force (logistics).
Falklands Situation (potential major for navy, preparadness essential).
Iran - could be the next Iraq?
Russia - given what was released by the RAF (conveniently yesterday...!)

And more long term the North Korea and China situations. Both could be very uncertain.


All these issue point towards a definate need for such high value advanced weaponry as the T-45, Astute, F-36, Typhoon, T-26, Aircraft Carriers (and the aircraft to fly off them), Skynet - in addition to the support for the Army.

Having strong allied nations in western europe, Australia et al and being able to work with them could be crucial in the next 50 years.
 
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1805

New Member
What are you going on about the RN can't afford a decent number off SSN. They are just so going to able to keep the yards running with a few SSGN !!
 
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1805

New Member
AndrewMI said:
Agreed - but the design of the sub would presumably be built under licence?



Interesting problems regarding the budget yesterday. It is hard to see how much can be trimmed from the defence budget (if at all) given the following issues:

Afghanistan (major op for army, navy (logistics) and air force (logistics).
Falklands Situation (potential major for navy, preparadness essential).
Iran - could be the next Iraq?
Russia - given what was released by the RAF (conveniently yesterday...!)

And more long term the North Korea and China situations. Both could be very uncertain.


All these issue point towards a definate need for such high value advanced weaponry as the T-45, Astute, F-36, Typhoon, T-26, Aircraft Carriers (and the aircraft to fly off them), Skynet - in addition to the support for the Army.

Having strong allied nations in western europe, Australia et al and being able to work with them could be crucial in the next 50 years.
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Well there are options but but the RN is not helping by over gold plating everything
 
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