The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[swerve]

No. Absalon, as it stands, is unsuitable. It would introduce a new type with unique sensors & weapons. Also, C2 doesn't need that great big flex deck. A ship somewhat like Absalon, but with the same sensors, weapons, propulsion (though maybe a cut-down version - I reckon C2 could get away with sacrificing some speed for endurance) & basic hull as C1, & a smaller flex deck, would do very nicely.

If the RN had adopted Smart-S, ESSM, etc, then yes, I think it'd do.

 

[swerve]

Look you're just quoting posts out of context as you well know. I have not said we should have a navy full of small corvettes, don't you remember having a go at the T45/T26/Absalon hybrid which is where I'd put most of the helicopters. But there is a place for something c100m such as a K130 Class a bit more warlike than the the currently planned C3, that can do policing and yet handle itself in the Gulf against FAC..

The RN doesn't think so. It's quite open about it. It wants warships that can operate worldwide, not just in restricted waters, & it thinks FACs are best dealt with by onboard helicopters (& has solid experience executing that approach - with great success). That means a ship with a hangar & flight deck big enough for a Wildcat, at least, & the ability to support it in extended operations. Your K130 type wouldn't do that. Funnily enough, something less overtly warlike, such as the Spanish BAM, or Venator (as long as it's given a hangar) could do the FAC-plinking job.

BTW, what would we do with these K130-like ships outside the Gulf? We don't have the Baltic out the back for them to play in.

BTW, the German navy seems to have decided against building more K130s. It's now thought too small & limited (7 days endurance - oooh), & the programme has been stopped at half the originally planned number. Instead, larger K131s will be bought.

 

[Palnatoke]

No. Absalon, as it stands, is unsuitable. It would introduce a new type with unique sensors & weapons. Also, C2 doesn't need that great big flex deck. A ship somewhat like Absalon, but with the same sensors, weapons, propulsion (though maybe a cut-down version - I reckon C2 could get away with sacrificing some speed for endurance) & basic hull as C1, & a smaller flex deck, would do very nicely.

If the RN had adopted Smart-S, ESSM, etc, then yes, I think it'd do.

Ohh. Put your own weapons and sensors on it - ofcourse. The ship is (almost) builded without such, so it shouldn't be a problem. Btw, The price tag in then danish kroner is about 1b dkk (7.4 dkk to a euro), sans weapons for one

IF the size of the ship, isn't a problem I don't see why the flex deck should be cut down, the deck doesn't hurt. Also the presence of the extra deck probably contributes to the useable square meters for the hanger and landing zone (by changing the ships dimensions), not sure, but the Huitfields seems only to have a single hanger, I guess that there aren't enough area, when the extra deck is removed?

 

[swerve]

It's not just the weapons. Remember what I said about propulsion? Everything points to C1 & C2 being variants of the same class, which means that even with our weapons & sensors fitted, buying Absalon-class ships would still have negative logistical implications. And the idea of importing full-on warships is very politically sensitive here. Transports - fine. We bought German-built ships. Auxiliaries? It now seems to have been accepted that we'll get tankers etc. at least partially built abroad, though probably with a fair bit of fitting out done here. But fighting ships? Sorry, no. They'd have to be built under licence - and I reckon that the hulls suddenly wouldn't look so cheap.

Of course, weapons & sensors are the expensive bits of a modern warship.

IF the size of the ship, isn't a problem I don't see why the flex deck should be cut down, the deck doesn't hurt.

I think it does, for a warship. It imposes limits on the placement of lots of things, it has top weight implications when fitting weapons & other equipment, etc. If you don't need it, it's undesirable.

 

[Sea Toby]

The Absalons have been in service for some time now, and to my knowledge no one else has followed suit. That is building a destroyer sized vessel equipped as a frigate. Maybe great for Denmark, but everyone else have built either an amphibious ship or a sealift ship. I believe the biggest problem with the Absalons is their shortage of vehicle deck space in lane meters. Most of the other nations require much more vehicle deck space to transport their army battalions...

Two hundred or so lane meters didn't meet the requirements for New Zealand. They bought a cheap ferry basically with 390 lane meters to transport an enlarged company group, its vehicles, troops, four helicopters, and a month's supplies. Most of the other nations wish to transport at least a larger battalion....

 

[StevoJH]

And you still ignore the potential for defence cuts. I bet you that early in, the new Government will push for cuts and some if not all the remaining 4 T22 with their heavy crews will be offered up. Bring the RN down to 18-20, I hope you prove me wrong.

No they won't, they are the RN's "cruisers". Plus they are currently going into or coming out of expensive refits.

 

[AndrewMI]

No they won't, they are the RN's "cruisers". Plus they are currently going into or coming out of expensive refits.

RN has Cruisers now!? Just kidding!

If the RN has a fleet of 6 T-45, 10-12 "C1" T-26 and 8 "C2" T-26 that seems a fair warfighting force. Add in 7-8 Astute SSN and you have a formidable Navy. The numbers are less important these days as the ships have far far greater power projection capability - which is what the modern navy is all about. Hence the new QE class.

(Out of interest does anyone know the plans to replace ocean? Are we looking to buy a new LPH?)

Far more work will be done using UAV and UCAV than has ever been done before. The combination of these and long range missiles/munitions will greatly help the RN of the future.

The greatest challenge facing the RN is whether the current funding difficulties and operations will affect the plans 10-20 years into the future? Hopefully not, but you never know.

 

[kev 99]

RN has Cruisers now!? Just kidding!

If the RN has a fleet of 6 T-45, 10-12 "C1" T-26 and 8 "C2" T-26 that seems a fair warfighting force. Add in 7-8 Astute SSN and you have a formidable Navy. The numbers are less important these days as the ships have far far greater power projection capability - which is what the modern navy is all about. Hence the new QE class.

(Out of interest does anyone know the plans to replace ocean? Are we looking to buy a new LPH?)

Far more work will be done using UAV and UCAV than has ever been done before. The combination of these and long range missiles/munitions will greatly help the RN of the future.

The greatest challenge facing the RN is whether the current funding difficulties and operations will affect the plans 10-20 years into the future? Hopefully not, but you never know.

Future plans have been suggested for rationalisation of the amphib fleet from three LPD/LHP into 2 LHD, but that's a long way off in the future so we'll have to see what happens there.

 

[Palnatoke]

The Absalons have been in service for some time now, and to my knowledge no one else has followed suit. That is building a destroyer sized vessel equipped as a frigate. Maybe great for Denmark, but everyone else have built either an amphibious ship or a sealift ship. I believe the biggest problem with the Absalons is their shortage of vehicle deck space in lane meters. Most of the other nations require much more vehicle deck space to transport their army battalions...

Two hundred or so lane meters didn't meet the requirements for New Zealand. They bought a cheap ferry basically with 390 lane meters to transport an enlarged company group, its vehicles, troops, four helicopters, and a month's supplies. Most of the other nations wish to transport at least a larger battalion....

The thing is that ABSs are neither transports nor amphibious ships. They can do some transportation, they can do some airborne insertion, but that's not the main role.

In my oppinion the C2 requirements actually explains something about what the ABS is, Though the ABS can do more than that.

@Swerve

Agree with the communaity requirements. My suggestion of the ABS is also purely hypothetical.
Though I would suggest that in fact it should be possible to use the ABS design and from that spawn variants, that can do more specialist roles like AAW or ASW. Like the danish navy has done with their Huitfeldt AAW class (which is a derrivative, or variant, of the larger ABS class).

In that way, I suggest, a larger navy like the RN can, imho, achive a very high degree of standardization. Add in a concept something like the danish STANFLEX, and your are set and ready for a very hgh degree of standardzation - cross services (StanFlex also applies to other services), with f.ex. a weapon system upgrade path, that's very flexible.

Though this is ofcourse hypothetical.

 

[AndrewMI]

Future plans have been suggested for rationalisation of the amphib fleet from three LPD/LHP into 2 LHD, but that's a long way off in the future so we'll have to see what happens there.

Hmm. seems a bit odd.

I was under the impression that there was a need to replace Ocean and Argus in the not to distant future, and the intention was to provide 1 or two LPH?

 

[Troothsayer]

The greatest challenge facing the RN is whether the current funding difficulties and operations will affect the plans 10-20 years into the future? Hopefully not, but you never know.

The greatest challenge facing the RN is over the next year is as to whether it remains a blue water navy or becomes a coastal defence force let alone worrying about escort numbers!

 

[Grim901]

Hmm. seems a bit odd.

I was under the impression that there was a need to replace Ocean and Argus in the not to distant future, and the intention was to provide 1 or two LPH?

We can only hope. The plan is to use 1 CV as an LPH when necessary, but only when Ocean isn't available, that suggests we'll need another to replace Ocean at some point. The CV's can't do both roles at once.

On another topic: Defensenews.com is expecting an announcement on the next phase of FSC starting in a few days.

 

[AndrewMI]

The greatest challenge facing the RN is over the next year is as to whether it remains a blue water navy or becomes a coastal defence force let alone worrying about escort numbers!

Very much doubt that.

 

[AndrewMI]

We can only hope. The plan is to use 1 CV as an LPH when necessary, but only when Ocean isn't available, that suggests we'll need another to replace Ocean at some point. The CV's can't do both roles at once.

On another topic: Defensenews.com is expecting an announcement on the next phase of FSC starting in a few days.

Good news on the FSC. What will the next phase be? Concept? Design?

I would be very suprised if we did not have a dedicated LPH. Ocean has proved its self useful. The French Mistraal design, the new Aussie design and the Japanese "destroyer" design look like good options.

Would this replace Argus? As i understand it Argus doubles as a Hospital ship?

 

[swerve]

Argus is used for aviation training in peacetime, & as a 'casualty receiving ship' in wartime. She's not an official hospital ship (& therefore illegal to attack), as she has armed roles. Eventually, we'll need a proper replacement, but I'm not aware of one being planned at the moment. She was done on the cheap, a converted second hand merchant ship.

The Japanese design is not available unless Japan changes policy to allow arms exports.

The "Aussie" design is actually Spanish. Personally, I think it'd do very nicely for the RN, but it's a bit different from Ocean, being an LHD rather than an LPH, & maybe the RN would prefer a pure LPH. And Ocean doesn't need replacing quite yet. Only 12 years in commission so far, & although she was built very cheaply, she should run on into the 2020s.

 

[AndrewMI]

Argus is used for aviation training in peacetime, & as a 'casualty receiving ship' in wartime. She's not an official hospital ship (& therefore illegal to attack), as she has armed roles. Eventually, we'll need a proper replacement, but I'm not aware of one being planned at the moment. She was done on the cheap, a converted second hand merchant ship.

The Japanese design is not available unless Japan changes policy to allow arms exports.

The "Aussie" design is actually Spanish. Personally, I think it'd do very nicely for the RN, but it's a bit different from Ocean, being an LHD rather than an LPH, & maybe the RN would prefer a pure LPH. And Ocean doesn't need replacing quite yet. Only 12 years in commission so far, & although she was built very cheaply, she should run on into the 2020s.

That is true, and if we were looking for a design that is relativly quick and cheap to implement, then it would seem to boil down to a choice between the Mistraal (if you want an LPH) or the Spanish/Aussie vessel (if you wanted an LHD).

Presumably if you were to go for two dedicated Amphib ships in the RN (in replacement of Ocean and longer term Albion and Bulwark) you would want two LHD's. If you were going to replace only Ocean, then you can be more flexible in your choice.

Aside from the obvious, what advantages are there to LHD over an LPH?

 

[1805]

That is true, and if we were looking for a design that is relativly quick and cheap to implement, then it would seem to boil down to a choice between the Mistraal (if you want an LPH) or the Spanish/Aussie vessel (if you wanted an LHD).

Presumably if you were to go for two dedicated Amphib ships in the RN (in replacement of Ocean and longer term Albion and Bulwark) you would want two LHD's. If you were going to replace only Ocean, then you can be more flexible in your choice.

Aside from the obvious, what advantages are there to LHD over an LPH?

The Mistral has a dock as well.

 

[1805]

No they won't, they are the RN's "cruisers". Plus they are currently going into or coming out of expensive refits.

I hope you're right, but they look the most vunerable to cuts, and the fact the RN has just had them refitted will not be much protection, we have built/refitted ships before and disposed of.

 

[MrQuintus]

Hmm. seems a bit odd.

I was under the impression that there was a need to replace Ocean and Argus in the not to distant future, and the intention was to provide 1 or two LPH?

Their is a standing requirement for 2 LPH to replace Ocean and maintain a 4 flattop/6 major surface combatant fleet (it's been around since invincible got mothballed), argus is a bit of a strange one, JCTS was planned (2 ships I think) then binned, everyone I know says in her limited role she has plenty of life left in her. I do not see the RFA getting anything like the USN sealift Mercy class anytime soon.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Good news on the FSC. What will the next phase be? Concept? Design?

Design for the largest class of vessels.