The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

1805

New Member
i know, because we are going to build a type of corvette in the early 1970s before even the Spanish Navy had designed them, because that is when the Type 21s where built, not 1978-82. As swerve points out, you have to build your gap fillers with what is available at the time.

Similarly, most Type 42s where built in the late 1970's/early 80's, after the majority of the Type 21s.....again not much of a gap filler if you wait 10 years to build more Type 42s!
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I was thinking more of replacing the T21 & T22, and just focusing on a single AA/ASW ship, maybe a bit of flex on the 4.5" dependent on AA or ASW focus. But then didn't Sheffield take forever to build? So your probably right. But then looking at the T21 apart from the 4.5" gun and its Lynx it was virtually defenceless.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
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I was thinking more of replacing the T21 & T22, and just focusing on a single AA/ASW ship, maybe a bit of flex on the 4.5" dependent on AA or ASW focus. But then didn't Sheffield take forever to build? So your probably right. But then looking at the T21 apart from the 4.5" gun and its Lynx it was virtually defenceless.
It had Sea Cat, it didn't have the weight margins for Sea Wolf or maybe it would have gotten the original version of Sea Wolf.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
...I don’t know how other Ramjet missiles are treated, MBDA Meteor uses one, but then that is not likely to be stored for long period.
Meteor has solid fuel. It's described as a "throttleable ducted rocket', but AFAIK that's a variant of the ramjet principle.
 

AndrewMI

New Member
Yup. And AFAIK that's still the defining difference between them, the thing which makes a particular ship C1 rather than C2 - even if those terms have been dropped. There will also be other differences, of course, to (as you say) keep the cost of C2 down. It might not have all the silencing features of C1, for example. It's not primarily ASW, so they're less important.

Hi Swerve,

Could I perhaps paraphrase your thoughts on the "C1" T26 and the "C2" T26 (or T27 however defined?)

C1 - primary Anti Submarine Warfare asset, with good Anti Surface Warfare capacity, able to defend its self from air attack. Similar hull size to T45, optimised for underwater stealth, and rear hull designed possible for two helicopters, and probably to mount a towed array sonar. Good quality Radar, perhaps of new/upgraded Artisan, top quality sonar fit. Perhaps a submarine masking fit out?


Weapons fit out to include:

Anti-Air - CAAM and a (new/upgraded) CIWS (and possibly an Aster 15?)
Anti-Sub - 1/2x Helicopters, on-ship torpedo tubes
Anti-Surface - Harpoon (or successor), 155mm gun (if developed), Tomahawk Land Attack Missile and small callable weapons for in shore/anti-terrorist rubber dingy bomb defence.



C2 - General Purpose Vessel, with lesser Anti-Surface and Anti Submarine capacity. Able to defend its self from air attack. Similar Hull to the C1 to allow a degree of "fitted for but not with" and perhaps with weapons and systems cross-decked from the retiring T23's/22's. Sensors and Radars to be cross-decked from retiring ships. Efficient and economical drive system to allow them to operate un-supported in far flung areas without dedicated RFA assistance.

Ships must be capable of "standard" RN tasks, e.g. Falklands Tasking, Caribbean Guardship, Drugs runs, routine patrol/flag fly and at the minute pirate patrol.

Fit out:

Anti-Air - CAMM and cross-decked Phalanx from T45's (which would get the new/upgraded design as on C1)
Anti-Sub - 1 helicopter, possible towed array and possible torpedo tubes on ship.
Anti-Surface - 155mm Gun (if developed), Harpoon (cross decked from retiring T-23's), fitted for but not with TLAM, and small calibre for in shore defence.




Seems a decent fit out. C1 retains some advanced capability and would be a formidable combo with a T45. C2 is able to carry out the mundane tasks at limited cost and easily out gun and out run pirates, drugs runners etc at limited cost. Only new systems would be the CAMM and 155mm gun.

My only question would be, are they too similar in "potential" to be classified separately?
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Hi Swerve,

Could I perhaps paraphrase your thoughts on the "C1" T26 and the "C2" T26 (or T27 however defined?)...
Weellll - not really. I've not been giving my thoughts, I've been saying what's been officially published.

That means -
C1 & C2 on the same hull.

C1 - high-end ASW ship, to get Type 2087 towed sonars transferred from T23.

C2 - cheaper ship, able to undertake lowish intensity tasks on its own, or take part in a task force with high end warships.

Both to have Artisan (first ships new sets, later ones recycled from retiring T23s) & CAMM.

I'm uncertain what land attack weapons will be fitted, & to what ships.

My only question would be, are they too similar in "potential" to be classified separately?
This is something that has been uncertain all along, but it now looks as if both may be called Type 26.

Implicit in the above -
1) the T23s with most life get a major refit & refurbishment (this has been official policy for a while), with Artisan & CAMM being fitted.
2) the T23s with 2087 lose it, & are relegated from ASW to GP role, as C1s enter service.
 

AndrewMI

New Member
Cheers Swerve

I guess the areas of my speculation seems to be:

The fitting of Tomahawk (presumably to "C1")
The fitting of Harpoon (although given that this can be cross-decked i think it is fair to say they will be included (unless they are fitted to the T-45))
The fitting of a CIWS system
The fitting of ship mounted torpedo tubes
The vessel(s) being two helecopter capable.
 

Hambo

New Member
Cheers Swerve

I guess the areas of my speculation seems to be:

The fitting of Tomahawk (presumably to "C1")
The fitting of Harpoon (although given that this can be cross-decked i think it is fair to say they will be included (unless they are fitted to the T-45))
The fitting of a CIWS system
The fitting of ship mounted torpedo tubes
The vessel(s) being two helecopter capable.
Is there confirmation that these vessels will get Tomahawk or are we just hopefull? Which gets me wondering will the current Tomahawk we use be viable in 10 years, I mean stealthy enough against the more advanced air defence systems? Hs the US got a newer version in the pipeline?

If we get a decent number of F35 on the carriers will the funding be made for integration with Storm Shadow? If it was this may suffice for the precision long range strike role, leaving Tomahawks for the Astute. Tomahawk on the T26 sounds nice to have but may be a luxury.

Looking around at what is in the pipeline , MBDA Fire Shadow would have potenial if the navy could get it on a ship for precision attack. Able to loiter at a range of 80 miles for 10 hours it would be a potent asset to the Amphibious group. The blurb says it would take real time targetting from systems such as Watchkeeper, I wonder will the sensors of the Lynx Wildcat be compatible?. It would seem a chance for a common system across the UK forces that would give the new ships some bite, maybe able to strike a blow at the claim the navy cant assist land ops, a great compliment to a 155mm gun if it ever arrives. The pictures from its test in Wales shows a ramp launch, I suppose that could be adapted to some Harpoon style fittings. The MBDA brochure says it does have potential for naval use.

A longer range system would be nice, and being as its from the same stable as many of our othr missiles, what does Scalp Naval cost as VS Tomahawk?
 

Grim901

New Member
Is there confirmation that these vessels will get Tomahawk or are we just hopefull? Which gets me wondering will the current Tomahawk we use be viable in 10 years, I mean stealthy enough against the more advanced air defence systems? Hs the US got a newer version in the pipeline?

If we get a decent number of F35 on the carriers will the funding be made for integration with Storm Shadow? If it was this may suffice for the precision long range strike role, leaving Tomahawks for the Astute. Tomahawk on the T26 sounds nice to have but may be a luxury.

Looking around at what is in the pipeline , MBDA Fire Shadow would have potenial if the navy could get it on a ship for precision attack. Able to loiter at a range of 80 miles for 10 hours it would be a potent asset to the Amphibious group. The blurb says it would take real time targetting from systems such as Watchkeeper, I wonder will the sensors of the Lynx Wildcat be compatible?. It would seem a chance for a common system across the UK forces that would give the new ships some bite, maybe able to strike a blow at the claim the navy cant assist land ops, a great compliment to a 155mm gun if it ever arrives. The pictures from its test in Wales shows a ramp launch, I suppose that could be adapted to some Harpoon style fittings. The MBDA brochure says it does have potential for naval use.

A longer range system would be nice, and being as its from the same stable as many of our othr missiles, what does Scalp Naval cost as VS Tomahawk?
The US does have a new missile in the works which is more stealthy and double the range, but its is pricey, a lot of people think it'd just be better to buy reusable stealthy UCAVs instead.

The Fire Shadow was originally planned to be integrated into T45 in the original upgrade plan. They apparently can be integrated into the A50 launcher.

The main benefit of new Tactoms is that they can do the job of both Harpoon and Storm Shadow, which makes them pretty attractive.
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
My 5 cents
C1 was envisaged as a multimission combatant, of about 6,000 tons displacement according to Janes. It is optimised for war fighting and would operate as an integral part of the maritime strike group or amphibious task group, offering high-end ASW, land attack and coastal suppression. It would also have an organic MCM capability and facilities for an embarked military force.

C2 would meet the policy requirement for operations in support of small-scale stabilisation operations, sea line protection and chokepoint escort.

(from Navy matters)
This should be the same design but in two variants.

Ofcourse collecting your "roles" in one main design subdivided in into a sutable number of variants, will likely require some compromises - though they do not always have to be "lowest common denominator".
On the up side, by having one basic design, you likely save money in the design stage, and because you will be building more, essentially alike, ships you can likely reap the rewards of large volumne in the production stage and you simplify your infrastructure, maintenance and some upgrades in the "in service" stage.

C3 was envisaged as a vessel of approximately 2,000 tonnes displacement with a range of 7,000 nm for constabulary and minor war vessel tasks. Cdr Brunton said "We see this vessel being used for maritime security and interdiction operations. It would also have a large mission bay aft, reconfigurable for special forces, MCM or a Lynx helicopter. (Navt matters
This is a very interesting idea. Yes, for god's sake let's have less cabable ships for doing the 99% less challeging, less sexy tasks that a navy also has to do.
I add that Fishery inspection and control, SAR, Suvereignity (showing the flag), anti piracy etc are all assignments that such a ship can do very well. (And just as good as a 7000t dreadnaught)
For inspiration look at the danish navy's (older) Thetis class inspection frigates or the (new) smaller (without helicopter) Knud Rasmussen class. Both are more "warship" on paper than in reality, though they have/can have a "Super Rapide" cannon which is enough for Somali pirats or Colombian drug runners, Thetis Class ships have f.ex, operated against pirats at the horn of africa. Though normally they stay in the cold North Atlantic/arctic, watching over the realm's cod population.
 

Hambo

New Member
Whats with all the bold type? Its rather annoying.

Not sure a VL Sea Dart is possible as they are liquid fueled. Fairly sure they are stored unfueled and have to be fueled before launching.
I think the definative answer from all the navy board, including RN personnel is that Sea Dart is a stored round and doesnt need refuellig, the propellent for the Odin ramjet being kerosene, sealed in the missile allowing long storage. The Chow solid booster gets it to Mach 2, then I believe the process is quite simple, the liquid fuel getting drawn into the ignition chamber with something called a flame holder that ignites in the air stream, but science confuses me. I have seen several display missiles and there is no obvious fuelling point.

Therefore I dont think there is much difference between Standard and Sea Dart in storage other than Standard on some ships such as the Perrys were on some form of magazine ring, I have never seen a picture of a T42 magazine for obvious reasons.

I think there were technical hurdles if you wanted VL Sea Dart.
a) the ramjet was actually hard to work, far harder to ignite straight up in the air a opposed to diagonal flight.
b) Sea Dart used valve technology in its first incarnation, pretty much like a lot of early SAM, s the missile was pointed at the target whilst the computers stuttered and stumbled along ie it needed a constant update of data prior to launch, then the technical problem is taking a rapidly accelerating missile and still being able to point it in the right direction, and transfer the required data. Shoot it upwards, somehow tip it over, and then "gather it in" must have taken some massive computer technology when you consider your clock radio probably has a faster computer than anything in the 1960s.I have read that the tip over bit of VL sea wolfs development was the real ball ache, Im not sure if they could have done it 10 yrs earlier. Its probably worth remebering that even the USN didnt perfect VL launch until later than Sea Dart was in service, I think its applying hindsight.

Anyway, I dont think VL Sea Dart in the 1970'S was a runner, maybe a decade later but not then, by which time the Type 42 was already afloat in numbers.

But im a techno dunce!

Correction, I think Sea Dart used solid state electronics, 965 Radar was valve, either way, it was early days as far as technology goes.
 
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StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Fairly sure Sea Dart Started with Valve but was later updated to Solid State. Remember Sea Dart first entered service in 1973 or so.
 

AndrewMI

New Member
These missiles sound interesting. Certainly, a TLAM equipped ship would benefit hugely from being able to launch, for example, a target acquiring UAV (or even a UCAV) - the benefits of which i think speak for themselves.

Having a large flight deck and ability to operate two helecopters and some UCAV's would be a very flexible and novel approach, particularly in its supposed envisaged role of Anti-Sub and land attack. A UAV could act as "spotter" for guided 155mm rounds for example.

I guess the big thing is what roles the RN see in the future - and what is considered affordable at the time. I am sure when the design is released they will be highly capable vessels and over time some of the equipment will be "chipped" from it to cover cost escalation.
 

1805

New Member
I think the definative answer from all the navy board, including RN personnel is that Sea Dart is a stored round and doesnt need refuellig, the propellent for the Odin ramjet being kerosene, sealed in the missile allowing long storage. The Chow solid booster gets it to Mach 2, then I believe the process is quite simple, the liquid fuel getting drawn into the ignition chamber with something called a flame holder that ignites in the air stream, but science confuses me. I have seen several display missiles and there is no obvious fuelling point.

Therefore I dont think there is much difference between Standard and Sea Dart in storage other than Standard on some ships such as the Perrys were on some form of magazine ring, I have never seen a picture of a T42 magazine for obvious reasons.

I think there were technical hurdles if you wanted VL Sea Dart.
a) the ramjet was actually hard to work, far harder to ignite straight up in the air a opposed to diagonal flight.
b) Sea Dart used valve technology in its first incarnation, pretty much like a lot of early SAM, s the missile was pointed at the target whilst the computers stuttered and stumbled along ie it needed a constant update of data prior to launch, then the technical problem is taking a rapidly accelerating missile and still being able to point it in the right direction, and transfer the required data. Shoot it upwards, somehow tip it over, and then "gather it in" must have taken some massive computer technology when you consider your clock radio probably has a faster computer than anything in the 1960s.I have read that the tip over bit of VL sea wolfs development was the real ball ache, Im not sure if they could have done it 10 yrs earlier. Its probably worth remebering that even the USN didnt perfect VL launch until later than Sea Dart was in service, I think its applying hindsight.

Anyway, I dont think VL Sea Dart in the 1970'S was a runner, maybe a decade later but not then, by which time the Type 42 was already afloat in numbers.

But im a techno dunce!

Correction, I think Sea Dart used solid state electronics, 965 Radar was valve, either way, it was early days as far as technology goes.
I think your right about doing this in the 60/70s, my suggestion was to develop a VL version for inclusion on destroyers that could have built in the late 90s, with batch 2s say 2000-2010 and batch 3s from now.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
...
I think there were technical hurdles if you wanted VL Sea Dart.
a) the ramjet was actually hard to work, far harder to ignite straight up in the air a opposed to diagonal flight.
b) Sea Dart used valve technology in its first incarnation, pretty much like a lot of early SAM, s the missile was pointed at the target whilst the computers stuttered and stumbled along ie it needed a constant update of data prior to launch, then the technical problem is taking a rapidly accelerating missile and still being able to point it in the right direction, and transfer the required data. Shoot it upwards, somehow tip it over, and then "gather it in" must have taken some massive computer technology when you consider your clock radio probably has a faster computer than anything in the 1960s.I have read that the tip over bit of VL sea wolfs development was the real ball ache, Im not sure if they could have done it 10 yrs earlier. Its probably worth remebering that even the USN didnt perfect VL launch until later than Sea Dart was in service, I think its applying hindsight.

Anyway, I dont think VL Sea Dart in the 1970'S was a runner, maybe a decade later but not then, by which time the Type 42 was already afloat in numbers.
Yes, when it was new Sea Dart flew straight towards the target, but was later improved to fly an initial ballistic trajectory towards the predicted location of the target, which greatly increased range. By that time, the technical difficulties of controlling a VL missile on tip-over had been solved, & a VL Sea Dart was perfectly feasible.

That was in the late 1980s. A VL Sea Dart could have been built earlier, but not when it first entered service.
 

Hambo

New Member
1805, I just dont think you are looking at the true context of the time 1970-1989. There are many interesting questions and what ifs and many errors made by the MOD but you cant get away from basic facts.

There was a cold war raging, we were spending 4%of GDP even at a time of economic chaos, supporting armed forces of 320,000 plus much bigger reserves. Equipment dating from the 1950' and 1960's across all three services was becoming obsolete (eg Sea Cat as you point out was awfull) Look at all three services on this cold war footing.

Just some of the major procurement in the 1970/80 timeframe include MRCA leading to Tornado 220/165 IDS/ADV purchased, dire need for AEW after the Nimrod AEW disaster. Challenger and Warrior for the army. The Navy had a need to replace a steam driven fleet and NATO was faced with a new generation of quieter soviet submarines being pumped out at an alarming rate, the cold facts are that without major resupply from the USA across the Atlantic NATO could not hold out for long. The entire focus of the RN and therefore what ships that you think we should have built, must be seen in that context.

The focus is the North Atlantic, if the Soviet Navy wins that battle and shuts the Atlantic, we are all red. There are airbases in Iceland, UK and Norway so our hyperthetical navy has some degree of aircover but we know thats far from perfect. There was an urgent need for TAS to be deployed, hence the Type 22, hence the expensive refits on 6 Leanders I think. Yes Sea Wolf at the time ws very big and expensive but Sea Cat needed to be replaced, Sea Wolf worked, and still works. Area defence was actually pretty well covered in that N Atlantic context, there were to be 14 Type 42, Bristol and Sea Dart on the Invincibles, so 18 ships to cope with a threat of long range bombers and anti ship cruise missiles that came in at altitude , not sea skimmers.

The decision to bin the carriers had already been made as wrong as it was but that was the way it was. Harrier was added to protect the ASW group from Soviet MPAs and bombers, UK Industry in the 1970s was said to be able to sustain 20 nuclear boats including the deterrent, and at somestage I think we deployed 14SSN, we also needed to replace the Oberons, and had to fund the Upholders, and had the cold war not ended the production run of the Upholders was potentially as big as 17 boats, because we just couldnt get enough SSNs to sea for the Cold War requirement. The submarine fleet into the 1990's without the cold war ending would have been well over 30 modern SSN/SSKs, the surface fleet would have had 18 Sea dart ships, and specialised ASW fleet of the remaining Leanders and Type 22 and its cheaper cousin the T23 in the pipeline. All that at a time with dozens of competing procurement programmes. Within that were different types of ships likely or even needed?, would we need a Type 82 with a type 23 powerplant? dont forget ships last 30 years, we already had hulls in the water.

Faced with the N Atlantic task, what use do you really think a fleet of 80m Spanish Corvettes with no helicopter facilities would have been to the RN, how would those ships have fared in the N Atlantic when you consider the much bigger Type 23 was designed to be worn out in that environment after only 18 years, and it was specifically designed to drag a TAS through the foul N Atlantic seas. The Descubierta type ship would have been bugger all use to the RN mission, bugger all use in the contect of the "war" being fought, fine for Spains mission as part of Nato, not ours, so even if it may have fared OK in Falkland Sound, it would never be realistic. I dont know why you are fascinated with these ships?

Prior to the collapse of the soviet union, I dont think the Navy did badly for the job it was asked to do by the Politicians. Post Soviet Union we saw massive cuts in Options for Change, yet we still had a series of specialised ships with plenty of life left in them, hence I dont think getting something akin to a Burke was really an option in the 1990's and building a new fleet of destroyer with VL Area Defence SAMs may not have crept passed the bean counters.

The pros and cons of dragging a 1960s era liquid fuelled ramjet into the 2000's has already been debated, maybe the UK should have designed our new missile but it would be rocket powered and not called sea dart. Sea Dart has gone as a concept, but UK Industry could have built something but I suspect that would have been done at a huge financial loss and would have few buyers lining up today.
 

AndrewMI

New Member
Good post Hambo.

Out of interest, you ever read Tom Clancy - Red Storm Rising? Covers a number of the issues you have highlighted.

I think in todays context, with less blind panic on facing an immanent threat, we can look to take out time developing systems, ships etc - that we are good at for our own and our allies benefit.

By that i mean, the T-45 design, and lessons learned from it should be noted and acted upon now so that as and when there is a need for a T-46, they can be acted upon.

The good thing about the T-23 (and T-22) is that there are weapons and systems on them today that remain state of the art (or thereabouts) and can be shunted across to a new ship when the time comes.

This could not be done with T-45 as the ship is designed around the primary weapon. Sea Dart for the T-42, PAAMS for the T-45 are generations apart. This should not be an issue for T-26 which, if managed properly can apply some of 1805's ideas to progressivly develop and adapt the ship's operating capability throughout its lifetime by means of a disign that is both flexible, yes specialised enough to perform the role intended of it.

Why, aside from budgetary, should T-26 not have a similar, if not superior, anti-surface capability to an Arleigh Burke?
 

kev 99

Member
Good post Hambo.

The good thing about the T-23 (and T-22) is that there are weapons and systems on them today that remain state of the art (or thereabouts) and can be shunted across to a new ship when the time comes.

Why, aside from budgetary, should T-26 not have a similar, if not superior, anti-surface capability to an Arleigh Burke?
For the first point I wouldn't say that there are any state of the art weapon systems on the T22 or T23, unless you count the type 2087 sonar maybe, what I would say is that the weapon systems on those two ships are at least competitive today nearly 3 decades since the type went into service in the case of the T22.

EDIT - Forgot Stingray are supposed to be pretty damn good!

Second point: T26 will have a lesser anti-surface capability because it will carry less weapons, BTW are you talking about at sea or against land targets?
 

AndrewMI

New Member
Hi Kev,

Do Harpoon and Goalkeeper not count for State of the Art? For clarification, by "State of the Art" i mean a system that still has a high effectivness and operational capacity today. Certainly the above weapons would be more than adequate on the "C2" T-26? I think we are on a similar wavelength here - i should have expressed myself more clearly.

With regards to your second point, i am not sure i follow you. In terms of an absolute number of missiles, i would imagine an Arleigh Burke would carry more. Partly down to the fact that it carries SM2 and SM3. My point was with regard to the range of weapons being similar or superior (by range i do not mean distance from the ship). i.e. a fit out that would include:

1 - (For land attack) a 155mm weapon - with guided rounds - which could be supported by UAV/UCAV and TLAM

2 - (For Anti-Sub) one or two helecopters supported by a towed array and ship and helecopter based torpedoe systems.

3 - For anti ship - the new/updated Harpoon (or suitable new anti-ship missile).


I suppose with that fit out it would be superior to an AB in the realms of anti-sub and land attack (although not necessaraly in terms of the number of weapons it carries), and have less anti-ship capability.
 

kev 99

Member
Hi Kev,

Do Harpoon and Goalkeeper not count for State of the Art? For clarification, by "State of the Art" i mean a system that still has a high effectivness and operational capacity today. Certainly the above weapons would be more than adequate on the "C2" T-26? I think we are on a similar wavelength here - i should have expressed myself more clearly.

With regards to your second point, i am not sure i follow you. In terms of an absolute number of missiles, i would imagine an Arleigh Burke would carry more. Partly down to the fact that it carries SM2 and SM3. My point was with regard to the range of weapons being similar or superior (by range i do not mean distance from the ship). i.e. a fit out that would include:

1 - (For land attack) a 155mm weapon - with guided rounds - which could be supported by UAV/UCAV and TLAM

2 - (For Anti-Sub) one or two helecopters supported by a towed array and ship and helecopter based torpedoe systems.

3 - For anti ship - the new/updated Harpoon (or suitable new anti-ship missile).


I suppose with that fit out it would be superior to an AB in the realms of anti-sub and land attack (although not necessaraly in terms of the number of weapons it carries), and have less anti-ship capability.
First point - yes I believe we're on a very similar page!

Second point:
1. Land attack, we don't actually know if the 155mm will make it yet, I have seen one report that states funding has dried up, we also don't know if T26 will even get a LACM, even if it does it won't have as many as an AB can carry. Up to 96 Tomahawks plus a 5" gun is pretty potent!

2. The fact that the flight 1 doesn't have a hanger and the flight 2as don't have a TAS are pretty significant, but they do both carry ASROC which does make a difference. I'm quite sure I read somewhere that Flight 2a's are having a TAS fitted, although I might of got that wrong as it sounds like it would take a lot of work.

3. Well the Harpoon is certainly a better anti ship missile than a SM2, it has a longer range and a larger warhead, probably much harder to intercept as well due to sea skimming, so your into what's better lots of SM2s or fewer missiles with a longer range, harder to stop and bigger warheads. One point though ABs could be retrofitted with Harpoon launchers.

To be honest I'd say its probably superior at anti sub but probably inferior in the other 2 disciplines, although of course this is strictly hypothetical as we don't know what it will or won't have yet.
 

AndrewMI

New Member
Good to hear.

1 - True, however my understanding was that the US were developing a 155 system? Perhaps someone can clarify, but if we wanted it i would suppose we could enter a JV with them (it is possible this is being done through BAe in any event). I think we will see a TLAM or equivalent. Not in the numbers on the AB, but somewhere between 8-24 (even if it will never carry that many) seems a sensible option, and one i think they wanted on T-45.

2 - If "C1" is to be a high end sub hunter i would imagine it will have to be fitted/ cross decked from the T-23's that have it.

3 - Agreed. Presumably the fitted for but not with scenario as per the T-45.


It will be interesting to see the proposed weaponary on the T-26. There certainly is a role for a high end multi-functional ship on a similar technical level to and who's strengths would complement those of a T-45. Whether they get built or not is another thing.

The "C2" T-26 could quite easily be, IMHO a new ship with existing systems transferred. If it only needs to do low kwy things on its own, or be a amall part of a major operation then all that it needs is to be cheap to run, efficient, comfortable and have enough firepower to see off an inferior foe/pirate types. All you need is a Gun, Helecopter, CAAM, Torpedo tubes and perhaps CIWS and or an old Harpoon.
 
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