J-10C of Pakistan Air Force

SABRE

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Thanks a lot dears to reply me. i am now satisfied . Now can anybody now tell me about the maximum bvr missile range of IAF su-30 and PAF Falcons. because unless you dont have the strike capability of shooting of an aircraft beyond visual range then it is of no use that is what i think
The longer range BVRAAM in IAF inventory is R-77 with 90Km range. PAF has ordered AIM-120C-5 which has about 105Km range. The difference makes hardly any difference. I think practically both missiles will need 50Km to 60Km distance to make proper targeting and killing.
 

SURB

Member
The longer range BVRAAM in IAF inventory is R-77 with 90Km range. PAF has ordered AIM-120C-5 which has about 105Km range. The difference makes hardly any difference. I think practically both missiles will need 50Km to 60Km distance to make proper targeting and killing.
And if fc-20 carrying sd-10 missile have to face the flanker what will be the distance for proper targeting almost ensuring a kill?
 

SABRE

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And if fc-20 carrying sd-10 missile have to face the flanker what will be the distance for proper targeting almost ensuring a kill?
I haven't got much of a knowledge on SD-10. Its range is about 70 to 80Km according to reports, more likely 70Km. It too will need to be at 50 to 60Km distance to make an assured kill. Flanker might also need to get into that range with its R-77. Many modern BVRAAMs have range around 60 to 80Km instead of 100+.
 
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aaaditya

New Member
The maximum range has little relevance to real life engagements. Not to mention that the "brochure" maximum range and the practical maximum range are two different things. Both are contingent on the target you're dealing with, and additionally depend on a number of things such as AEW support, ECM or jamming support, etc. I don't think there is an easy answer to these questions.
but doesnt the max range have relevance to the end game dynamics of the bvr missile,for example lets assume that a 60 kms max range missile is fired against a target at a range of 55 kms,this missile would already be at the outer limits of its endurance and would not have enough energy left for the kill should the target be highly manouverable like the su-30,at the same time a missile with a 100kms range fired against athe same target at 55 kms would still have enough margin to sustain its kinematic performance agaist the target and better chances of acheiving a kill even though the target is highly manouverable like the su-30.
 

Feanor

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Yes. My point was contingent on the fact that the maximum range of the missiles from both sides was in the same ballpark. Otherwise you are absolutely correct.
 
A

Aussie Digger

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And if fc-20 carrying sd-10 missile have to face the flanker what will be the distance for proper targeting almost ensuring a kill?
For a very high Pk (probability of kill) value, you want to be close. The longer the range a missile is fired at, the lesser the Pk tends to be.

This holds true for EVERY combat aircraft, not just Western aircraft, despite what some may portray...

I would suggest that BVR capabilities of R-77 equipped SU-30 aircraft and AIM-120C5 equipped Block 52 F-16's are going to be relatively similar.

The radar range advantages held by the Sukhoi SU-30 over the F-16 should be offset by it's very large radar cross section and the capabilities inherent in the Electronic warfare system of the Block 52 F-16.

They are going to be so similar in fact, that factors OTHER than the relative capability of individual aircraft are going to make a larger difference in any conflict involving these two types, than any performance advantage held by these respective fighters.

Again, systems matter people. That fighter radar X can search 300k's whilst fighter radar Y can only search 280k's is largely irrelevant.

The German Air Force generally had the superior aircraft in WW2, particularly towards the end of the war. How well did they do?

The Red Baron generally had inferior aircraft in WW1. How well did HE do?
 
i have a couple questions about bvr-missiles if anyone has a moment for clarity:

-for semi-active bvr-missiles, when does the seeker go active? what is the ideal range for a seeker to go active? if it is receiving mid-course updates from the launch platform, and suddenly those updates are gone (e.g. launch platform goes evasive and no longer has the radar situated on the target), would the missile seeker automatically go active then? or does the seeker stay silent until a pre-determined distance when it becomes ideal (and necessary) for the missile seeker to go active for end-game high-resolution target vector data.

-if a bvr-missile is launched from a reasonably long distance out from target (say, 60km), and the missile is hemorrhaging kinetic energy by the time it reaches the target ... if the target was maneuverable it could evade the missile at end-game. however, how does the target platform know how close the missile is? if he is aware (RWR) that he is being targeted (when the missile active seeker goes live), he knows it is close ... but there is a big difference in making hard, evasive maneuvers that wont do much when the missile is still 20km out, vs when the missile is 5km out (and he has a better chance to evade). what information is available to the pilot to know when is the best time (window) to make such maneuvers - say, from a country that doesn't have the luxury of AWACS, so the targeted platform doesn't know how far away (or good estimate) how far away the launch platform is to calculate the time-to-impact for himself.

any helpful links for further reading on the subject would be helpful as well
thanks,
 

sunny1987

New Member
Thats great that PAF and IAF have almost smae range of bvr missile. but i have read on wikipedia about the brahmos supersonic cruise misslie that has range of 300 km installed on Su-30mki termed as AWACS killer
 

Bonza

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Thats great that PAF and IAF have almost smae range of bvr missile. but i have read on wikipedia about the brahmos supersonic cruise misslie that has range of 300 km installed on Su-30mki termed as AWACS killer
Brahmos is a land attack missile, so it's not going to be killing any AWACS platforms unless they're parked on a runway. You might be thinking of the Novator K-100 (previously R-172) missile, which has been billed as an "AWACS killer" (though it's utility in the role has yet to be established) and has a range (publicly declared range, anyway) in the region you mentioned. I believe India has expressed interest in the missile but don't know anything further than that, and from what I understand it is not yet in production.
 

Feanor

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Bonza hit the nail on the head. The K-100 it seems is being developed for the PAK-FA, and probably FGFA. But it will be quite a few years before it enters service, never mind gets delivered to line units of export customers.
 
A

Aussie Digger

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Thats great that PAF and IAF have almost smae range of bvr missile. but i have read on wikipedia about the brahmos supersonic cruise misslie that has range of 300 km installed on Su-30mki termed as AWACS killer
The K-100 "AWACS killer" is the weapon I believe you are referring to.

Plain and simple it is a myth. It has been in development "for ever" and has not ever been deployed by anyone.

The reason is simple.

Even with ramjet propulsion, the weapon has to glide for a significant proportion of it's flight. In order to achieve such a long range it needs a very clean missile body, ie: no fins, which means the missile is very non-maneuverable.

It also needs to fly at VERY high altitudes, some say up to 100,000 feet to achieve it's range performance.

Furthermore, it needs it's own very powerful active radar system to be operational at all, which means that EVERYONE will know that this thing is coming.

So what this weapon provides is a very high speed missile, that is "gliding" for the majority of it's flight profile, at an extremely high altitude with a VERY visible active radar emission and very large thermal bloom from it's very powerful rocket motor operating at high altitude, before descending in a "top attack" profile.

In short, every aircraft in a theatre WILL know when this thing has been launched, everyone WILL know it's performance, it WILL be the focus of jamming and due to it's lack of maneuverability and extended flight time (despite it's speed) every aircraft, including large jets like AWACS, AAR etc, should be able to out-maneuver the thing.

The Americans had a similar weapon 35 years ago. It was called the AIM-54 Phoenix. It's limitations were realised and it was intended to fly towards and attack massed bomber formations, in the manner described above.

It's performance against an individual platform was very ordinary, which is why the US has not deployed any similar weapons since the threat of attack by mass bomber fleets disappeared...

The USA has many missiles that would perform a similar role, including Patriot PAC-3 and ESSM, but the effort isn't worth the result. The Air Power Australia argument that K-100 type missiles render "small" fighters impotent and spell the end of Western Airborne ISR superiority is utter nonsense.

Even if current weapons are insufficient, a PAC-3 Patriot or ESSM missile adapted for fighter carriage would provide a standoff range capability that matches or exceeds the K-100 itself and with hardpoints designed for 2000lbs weapons carriage, lofting these sorts of missiles would present no problem.

That they see no need for carriage of such long ranged weapons, shows this "threat" as it really is...

Hence why not even Russia employs this type of weapon, despite having developed it for the last 20 odd years...
 

Feanor

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Perhaps the development taking place currently is meat to mitigate the flaws in regards to flight pattern, and signal management. Initially the first sighting of the K-100, it was considered a Buk-M missile, modified for air-launch. Yet it's been a while, and since then it seem to look rather different. The project could very well morph into a new LRAAM meant for 5th generation fighter jets.
 

vladimir_7

New Member
The K-100 "AWACS killer" is the weapon I believe you are referring to.

Plain and simple it is a myth. It has been in development "for ever" and has not ever been deployed by anyone.

.
Some times back even PAK FA was a myth for u guys... later on .. when prototype came to existent...it become some wht inferior.. don't know how and why... regarding k-100... on some forums even pics are available... i think i have seen on Pakdef...and .. no price for guessing that even indian Nuclear Submarine .. Arihant... is considered as just "TEST Vehicle".. reason unknown to me till date...

I really want to know sir make u to believe the very existent of missile if some one is not good in Kotler kind of marketing or not intended to do the same.
 

SURB

Member
I am still a bit confused.Is PAF considering J-10b or J-10a in their shopping list?The article by Feanor says FC-20 will be available for PAF till 2014/2015.If i am not wrong FC-20 is j-10b ;will it be available till 2014 or our first induction will be j-10a followed by j-10b?
 
A

Aussie Digger

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Some times back even PAK FA was a myth for u guys... later on .. when prototype came to existent...it become some wht inferior.. don't know how and why... regarding k-100... on some forums even pics are available... i think i have seen on Pakdef...and .. no price for guessing that even indian Nuclear Submarine .. Arihant... is considered as just "TEST Vehicle".. reason unknown to me till date...

I really want to know sir make u to believe the very existent of missile if some one is not good in Kotler kind of marketing or not intended to do the same.

Just like PAK-FA the Russian "AWACS" killer has been in development for ever.

Despite this, it is not operational nor is the weapon even deployed by a single Country, including Russia AFAIK.

As I've outlined before, I suspect there is a very good reason for this. Such weapons have proven ineffective against individual platforms and as I also mentioned earlier, such a missile is hardly a new thing, having been deployed but later withdrawn by others such as the USA.

Russia is not standing still with missile development, plenty of R-77 variants have ht the market, but this one seems to be such a low priority. Given my responses, I don't wonder why...
 

Feanor

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The PAK-FA was actually not a long-running project at all. It was selected over the MiG concept in 2002, and by early 2010 it's flying. Given the relatively low volumes of funding, and the poor state of Russian aero-space in general, it's a pretty fast project. The "AWACS-killer" on the other hand is indeed a very long running project. It remains to be seen whether anything comes of it.

EDIT: To bring this a little back on topic, basically within the next decade, the PAF only has to worry about advanced R-77 variants.
 

SABRE

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I am still a bit confused.Is PAF considering J-10b or J-10a in their shopping list?The article by Feanor says FC-20 will be available for PAF till 2014/2015.If i am not wrong FC-20 is j-10b ;will it be available till 2014 or our first induction will be j-10a followed by j-10b?
I am speculating it to be J-10B. J-10A production might cease by the end of this year or early next year in favor of J-10B, unless J-10A is set asides for export version. But let me assert again I am just speculating.
 
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