Saudi Arabia & Russia Sign Military Cooperation Agreement

[Feanor]

They did evaluate them. And they have made strange decisions in the past. Like the helicopter deal.

 

[eckherl]

Because it's expensive to procure large numbers of new tanks all at once. 150 would likely the first contract. The Saudi's would get familiar with the tank in depth, and get a chance to see how well it works within their overall system. The contract is likely to include an option for additional tanks, and even if it does not, it would not be to difficult to negotiate another contract. The Indians didn't just buy 1600 T-90's. The bought 310, got kits for anther 1000, and left another 347 in options, which they didn't use until rather recently.

Morever for the Saudi's the T-90 would not just be a new tank, it would be a new type of tank. Maintenance, training, everything would have to be adjusted from scratch. It would make sense for the first delivery to be a small one sort of as a transition. Finally the deal could also be politically significant, as a Russo-Saudi cooperation. In which case the small size would also be understandable.

Do not try to use the cost trump card, they have enough money that if they wanted to they could replace all of their tanks with them. A sale of 150 tanks doesn`t even make sense for training requirements, what - do you think that they are the military size of the U.S.

T-95 is a joke at this time, things are not that secret in Russia as to where the rest of the world would not have additional information on this tank, T-90 will be around for a very long time, again - Russia has other priorities.

 

[Feanor]

Until we see the final contract terms, nothing will become clear. Now as for the T-95 again, a new tank is in development, and it is supposed to be shown publicly this year. Now a public demo of an early prototype is very different from a serial production run. But it's not a joke, time will tell whether it's a revolutionary new tank, or another dead end like Object 640.

 

[luca28]

Saudi Arabia to buy Russian tanks and helicopters in $2 billion weapons deal

Do you have sources for these numbers?

Source: defence.professionals | defpro.com

Russian tanks to plough the Saudi sands

05:40 GMT, September 1, 2009 defpro.com | Saudi Arabia is close to buy Russian arms and military equipment worth some $2 billion (€1.4 billion), a Russian defence industry source was quoted by Interfax on Saturday. The news agency reported that the unnamed source said that “work is nearly completed on a set of contracts on the delivery of Russian arms and military technology to Saudi Arabia.”

The major weapon deal with Rosoboronexport State Corporation, Russia's state-owned arms export monopoly, may include up to 30 Mi-35 attack helicopters and up to 120 Mi-171B, the export version of the Mi-17 Hip multi-purpose helicopter, which is in service in some 80 countries. As defpro.com already reported earlier this month, Russia concluded talks with Saudi Arabia on the helicopter contract (see: defence.professionals | defpro.com).


Russian tracked vehicles and tanks on Saudi Arabia’s shopping list

Beside the helicopters, the deal also compromises some 150 T-90S main battle tanks (MBTs) and around 250 BMP-3 infantry fighting vehicles (IFVs). Furthermore, several sets of Russian state-of-the-art S-400 Triumf air defence systems are part of the multi-billion contract.

The advanced S-400 Triumf (SA-21 Growler) allegedly has no equivalent in the West, and is said to have outflanked the US MIM-104 Patriot. The system is designed to intercept and destroy airborne targets at distances of up to 400 kilometers (250 miles), twice the range of the Patriot. Defence experts believe that the system may be able to encounter cruise missiles and ballistic missiles as well as most stealth aircraft. The Interfax source said that Saudi Arabia is interested in “several dozen” S-400 systems, each including at least eight launchers with 32 missiles and a mobile command post. Besides Saudi Arabia also Turkey, Egypt and Iran have shown strong interest in the Russian air defence system.

With this deal, the Russian Federation’s T-90 – including India’s licenced T-90S production programme – should be the most successful tank in terms of new selling numbers showing once again that the days of US and European domination over new production are long gone in the international market for main battle tanks.

The BMP-3, nicknamed “Troyka” and one of the most heavily armed infantry fighting vehicles in service, is already an old model, having been first built in 1987. However, it found its way back in the market as several nations are looking again at heavier armour and protection as well as more effective state-of-the-art weapon systems. A dozen countries have already integrated this vehicle into their armed forces, among them Saudi Arabia’s neighbours Kuwait as well as the United Arab Emirates. Greece is also preparing a possible purchase of 420 of these tracked fighting vehicles.

According to Interfax, Riyadh may sign contracts for the tanks and helicopters as early as this year. In a number of the contracts which are part of this major deal, both sides have already agreed on the key technical and financial details while other contracts are still being negotiated, according to the quoted source.


Saudi Arabia taking the lead in Middle East defence spending

Riyadh traditionally bought exclusively Western, mainly US-made, military equipment. However, in 2008 Saudi Arabia and Russia signed a “framework agreement for military cooperation” that opened the way for Saudi Arabia to buy Russian arms. In July 2008, as Saudi Arabia’s Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal visited Moscow, a Russian newspaper reported that several deals, including the procurement of military equipment, has been discussed with a total worth of some $4 billion. Finally, this year Saudi King Abdullah received a delegation that included a top Kremlin advisor and an official from Rosoboronexport.

The new orientation of Riyadh towards a new principal weapons supplier may result from difficulties which the Arab countries experienced in recent attempts to buy military equipment from the West since 11 September 2001.

Saudi Arabia's defence budget currently exceeds $33 billion and is expected to reach $44 billion in 2010. In a recently published report Frost & Sullivan predicts that defence expenditures in the Middle East will cross the $100 billion mark in the coming five years. The fear that Iran’s nuclear programme may destabilise the entire region is suggested as one of the key reasons for the recent push on the Arabian Peninsula.

The bulk of spending in the region is to come from Saudi Arabia, Iraq, the United Arab Emirates and Israel. In terms of spending, Saudi Arabia is taking the lead in the region with Israel in second place, the latter being expected to disburse some $13 billion by the end of 2009, according to the report.

defence.professionals | defpro.com

 

[eckherl]

With the recent announcement that the Saudi kingdom will be approved for the additional purchase of 56 M1A1 tanks and a extensive upgrade for all their existing M1A2 tanks to a close SEP standard only confirms what I have thought all along, if they do go with the T-90S it will settle for second best status, reserve units. I should also note that the French still may have a shot with putting something together with Leclerc.

 

[Firn]

With the recent announcement that the Saudi kingdom will be approved for the additional purchase of 56 M1A1 tanks and a extensive upgrade for all their existing M1A2 tanks to a close SEP standard only confirms what I have thought all along, if they do go with the T-90S it will settle for second best status, reserve units. I should also note that the French still may have a shot with putting something together with Leclerc.

The purchase strategy (if it is one) is certainly rather interesting. Few nations do operate more than one MBT other than in an transition phase, and very few seem to try to increase the types of MBTs in service.

 

[Feanor]

I've heard nothing new on the T-90 deal, and I'm assuming it was a newspaper hoax. Unless someone here has heard otherwise....

 

[eckherl]

The purchase strategy (if it is one) is certainly rather interesting. Few nations do operate more than one MBT other than in an transition phase, and very few seem to try to increase the types of MBTs in service.

The Saudi kingdom is rather strange when partaking in new weapons system purchases, they seem to think that this will not be a logistical burden during a time of conflict. Hopefully they will not have to find out. Russia comes to mind when discussing different MBT models but they seem to be getting it boiled down to just one model series. ROK and China have to be by far the worst when operating different systems.

 

[Blue Streak]

Tactical Report.com hinted several weeks ago that its sources had suggested these Russian purchases by Saudi are destined for use on their border with Yemen.

The nearest major Royal Saudi Land Force garrison close to the Yemen is King Abdul-Aziz Military City, where the 4th Armoured Brigade along with the 10th and 11th Mechanised Brigades are stationed. These brigades employ the M60A3 MBT and numerous variants of the M113. Some of these vehicles have been in use since the 1960s, so there is indeed a reason for their possible replacement by new kit.

However, I suggest another possibility.

Several sources have alleged Saudi has delivered both funds and military kit to the Yemen direct from their own stocks to assist the Yemeni Government in their fight against the Houthi rebellion in northern Yemen and separatists in south.

Several Arab websites have video footage of Houthi insurgents displaying captured munitions and weapons in Saudi markings. French website Intelligence Online.com has ran reports of Saudi M60A3s being repainted in Yemeni colours and delivered to Sanaa; this same source also claims Royal Saudi Air Force F-15s have tasked air strikes against the Houthi mountain enclaves in direct support of Yemeni Government forces.

Is it beyond the realms of possibility then, that these new Russian weapons may in fact be destined for the Yemen?

Yemen after all is used to using Russian kit. Given the state of their economy they couldn’t presently afford such equipment and the numbers procured certainly does not meet Saudi needs. Lastly, this would not be the first time Saudi has procured weapon systems as a proxy; there is a long history of it.

An opinion...

 

[Tavarisch]

Tactical Report.com hinted several weeks ago that its sources had suggested these Russian purchases by Saudi are destined for use on their border with Yemen.

The nearest major Royal Saudi Land Force garrison close to the Yemen is King Abdul-Aziz Military City, where the 4th Armoured Brigade along with the 10th and 11th Mechanised Brigades are stationed. These brigades employ the M60A3 MBT and numerous variants of the M113. Some of these vehicles have been in use since the 1960s, so there is indeed a reason for their possible replacement by new kit.

However, I suggest another possibility.

Several sources have alleged Saudi has delivered both funds and military kit to the Yemen direct from their own stocks to assist the Yemeni Government in their fight against the Houthi rebellion in northern Yemen and separatists in south.

Several Arab websites have video footage of Houthi insurgents displaying captured munitions and weapons in Saudi markings. French website Intelligence Online.com has ran reports of Saudi M60A3s being repainted in Yemeni colours and delivered to Sanaa; this same source also claims Royal Saudi Air Force F-15s have tasked air strikes against the Houthi mountain enclaves in direct support of Yemeni Government forces.

Is it beyond the realms of possibility then, that these new Russian weapons may in fact be destined for the Yemen?

Yemen after all is used to using Russian kit. Given the state of their economy they couldn’t presently afford such equipment and the numbers procured certainly does not meet Saudi needs. Lastly, this would not be the first time Saudi has procured weapon systems as a proxy; there is a long history of it.

An opinion...

I guess that could be a theory. Maybe the Saudis want to pay their Zakat? ( )

 

[Blue Streak]

I guess that could be a theory. Maybe the Saudis want to pay their Zakat? ( )

One line responses of stupid Irrelevance like the above, used to get banned on this forum. Especially when they hinted of racism.

I guessing things have changed.

 

[Feanor]

Blue Streak you joined less then a month ago... and in any event while his comment might not be all that relevant I don't see what the problem is.

 

[eckherl]

Tactical Report.com hinted several weeks ago that its sources had suggested these Russian purchases by Saudi are destined for use on their border with Yemen.

The nearest major Royal Saudi Land Force garrison close to the Yemen is King Abdul-Aziz Military City, where the 4th Armoured Brigade along with the 10th and 11th Mechanised Brigades are stationed. These brigades employ the M60A3 MBT and numerous variants of the M113. Some of these vehicles have been in use since the 1960s, so there is indeed a reason for their possible replacement by new kit.

However, I suggest another possibility.

Several sources have alleged Saudi has delivered both funds and military kit to the Yemen direct from their own stocks to assist the Yemeni Government in their fight against the Houthi rebellion in northern Yemen and separatists in south.

Several Arab websites have video footage of Houthi insurgents displaying captured munitions and weapons in Saudi markings. French website Intelligence Online.com has ran reports of Saudi M60A3s being repainted in Yemeni colours and delivered to Sanaa; this same source also claims Royal Saudi Air Force F-15s have tasked air strikes against the Houthi mountain enclaves in direct support of Yemeni Government forces.

Is it beyond the realms of possibility then, that these new Russian weapons may in fact be destined for the Yemen?

Yemen after all is used to using Russian kit. Given the state of their economy they couldn’t presently afford such equipment and the numbers procured certainly does not meet Saudi needs. Lastly, this would not be the first time Saudi has procured weapon systems as a proxy; there is a long history of it.

An opinion...

I have meantioned this before that Saudi weapons purchases are indeed for other countries, be it directly or indirectly, your opinion is most interesting and gives me a little research fun time.

Thanks

 

[Feanor]

Russian press has been reporting that the Saudi's tie a multi-billion dollar weapons deal to the condition of not supplying Iran the S-300.

 

[eckherl]

Russian press has been reporting that the Saudi's tie a multi-billion dollar weapons deal to the condition of not supplying Iran the S-300.

I would not think that Saudi Arabia would do this because of trust issues between both countries. Maybe this was one of the stipulations between the U.S and Russia inregards to The U.S deciding not to proceed with the Ballistic defense shield in Europe, could be possible also that Russia and Israel could of come to some type of agreement. either way it will be interesting to know the full details of some of the decisions that have been made inregards to both issues referenced above.

 

[Feanor]

Seemed strange to me too. I found articles on it on lenta.ru and arms-expo.ru

I'll see what else I can find on it.

 

[PhysicsMan]

Seemed strange to me too. I found articles on it on lenta.ru and arms-expo.ru

I'll see what else I can find on it.

With the general state of paranoia among Arabs about Iran's power (particularly its nuclear aims) any such augmentations to its capabilities must be a worry to them, so it wouldn't be surprising at all if they indeed tie this to a deal with Russia.

 

[Chris.Jc]

And there was me thinking Saudi Arabia bought U.S Equipment just like Israel. :

 

[Blue Streak]

Russian press has been reporting that the Saudi's tie a multi-billion dollar weapons deal to the condition of not supplying Iran the S-300.

Whatever Iran wants, The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia will offer at least three-times the bidding price...

 

[Blue Streak]

I would not think that Saudi Arabia would do this because of trust issues between both countries. Maybe this was one of the stipulations between the U.S and Russia inregards to The U.S deciding not to proceed with the Ballistic defense shield in Europe, could be possible also that Russia and Israel could of come to some type of agreement. either way it will be interesting to know the full details of some of the decisions that have been made inregards to both issues referenced above.

Saudi could never intergrate Russian kit into Peace Shield.


Saudi just wants to outprice Iran.