PAK-FA / T-50: Russian 5th Generation Fighter

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Haavarla

Active Member
True, one's always looking forward to his next post as it always is a good laugh. Remember when he claimed he invented his own definition of "corruption"? That was awesome :hehe

Yeah.
Well lets fall into character again:)

A side question.

Is it possible to messure the effectivness and long service role of the Mig-31(vs fighters both in RuAF and other countries) in any way for Soviet and now Russia?
I mean how much would the RuAF readyness and capabilities suffer if the Mig-31 was retired some 15 years ago or even today?

And more importantly do you think the PAK-FA will sucessfully replace the Mig-31?

It beeing obvious that those Mig-31 got a fair part of funding vs other operative Wings in the RuAF through out its history both in Soviet and now Russia.




I found some info on the Mig-31, is this correct?

"The MiG-31 was the world's first operational fighter with a passive electronically scanned array radar, the Zaslon S-800. Its maximum range against fighter-sized targets is approximately 200 km (125 mi), and it can track up to 10 targets and simultaneously attack four of them with its AA-9 'Amos' missiles. It is claimed to have limited astern coverage (perhaps the reason for the radome-like protuberance above and between the engines). The radar is matched with an infrared search and tracking (IRST) system in a retractable undernose fairing. Up to four MiG-31s, spaced up to 200 km (125 mi) apart to cover a wide swath of territory, can coordinate via datalink.

The MiG-31M-, MiG-31D-, and MiG-31BS-standard aircraft have an upgraded Zaslon-M passive electronically scanned phased array radar (PESA) with larger antenna and greater detection range (said to be 400 km (250 mi) against AWACS-size targets) and the ability to attack multiple targets -air and ground- simultaneously. The back-seater's controls are replaced with modern MFDs. Its electronic countermeasures capabilities have also been upgraded, with new ECM pods on the wingtips.

The aircraft is a two-seater with the rear seat occupant controlling the radar. Although cockpit controls are duplicated across cockpits, it is normal for the aircraft to be flown only from the front seat. The pilot flies the aircraft by means of a centre stick and left hand throttles. The rear cockpit has only two small vision ports on the sides of the canopy. It is argued that the presence of the WSO (Weapon Systems Operator) in the rear cockpit improves aircraft effectiveness since he is entirely dedicated to radar operations and weapons deployment. This decreases the workload of the pilot and increases efficiency.

Both cockpits are fitted with zero/zero ejection seats which allow the crew to eject at any altitude and airspeed.

Some upgrade programmes have found their way to the MiG-31 fleet, for example the MiG-31BM multi-role version which includes upgraded avionics. In the cockpit this upgrade provides for the use of new weapons, a new multimode radar, HOTAS controls and liquid-crystal (LCD) colour multi-function displays (MFDs). Only a small part of the fleet, however, has been upgraded to this standard.

It has been claimed by Russian Federation Defence Ministry chief Colonel Yuri Balyko, that the upgrade will increase the combat effectiveness of the aircraft several times over.

The MiG-31's main armament is four R-33 air-to-air missiles (NATO codename AA-9 'Amos') carried under the belly. The R-33 is the Russian equivalent of the U.S. Navy's AIM-54 Phoenix. It can be guided in semi-active radar homing (SARH) mode, or launched in inertial guidance mode with the option of mid-course updates from the launch aircraft and switching to SARH for terminal guidance. A more advanced version of the weapon, the AA-X-13 'Arrow', which is the replacement for the older R-33, features folding stabilizers to reduce its stored size.

Other weapons include the old AA-6 'Acrid', originally deployed on the MiG-25, and the AA-8 'Aphid' or AA-11 'Archer' short-range IR missiles, carried on wing pylons. Currently the entire MiG-31 fleet is being refitted to carry the newer AA-12 'Adder' on the wing pylons."


http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/mig-31_foxhound.pl

Thanks
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
A gentle suggestion to all.

Although Roberto has been temp banned, and although complaints have ben fielded regarding his behaviour, it is probably appropriate for everyone to modify their posts.

He is unable to respond, so its unfair on him to view and be unable to defend himself.

much appreciated.
 

Haavarla

Active Member
Something a found on another forum.



"Going on these days at Le Bourget (France) 48 th International Aerospace Salon de Paris once again led to a surge of interest in a Russian fighter aircraft developed by the fifth-generation PAK FA (promising aviation complex tactical aviation). Interviews Chapter consortium «Dry» / MiG Mikhail Pogosyan state television «Russia» only give fuel to the fire.

There is still the subject of guesswork is the beginning of flight tests PAK FA, promised in December that year.There still is discordance. For example, on 17 June at a meeting of the state defense order, Deputy Defense Minister for Armaments Vladimir Popovkin announced that the Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft is practically ready, and in December it would begin flight testing. The completed production of the first fifth-generation aircraft, which will not be flying, and ground testing at the Summer Research Institute in Zhukovsky, Moscow Region. According to Ivanov, the test sample is tested for strength, static and other characteristics. «This will be done this year», - he said (these two statements are taken from tapes of Russian Information Agency).

So what will be - flying (Popovkin) or static (Ivanov) test? Judging by the fact that the first sample PAK FA (three in the assembly in Komsomolsk-on-Amur APO) has not yet brought them to Leah. Gromova, it could be the beginning of this year, namely, static tests. A feature of PAK FA from the Su-27 is the prototype of the aircraft are not manufactured at the pilot plant OKB im. Sukhoi in Moscow (it was built the first three test aircraft), and immediately to the serial plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur."


I swear to God.. every time something on the Pak-FA pops up it keeps getting more and more confusing:confused:


Thanks
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
Something a found on another forum.



"Going on these days at Le Bourget (France) 48 th International Aerospace Salon de Paris once again led to a surge of interest in a Russian fighter aircraft developed by the fifth-generation PAK FA (promising aviation complex tactical aviation). Interviews Chapter consortium «Dry» / MiG Mikhail Pogosyan state television «Russia» only give fuel to the fire.

There is still the subject of guesswork is the beginning of flight tests PAK FA, promised in December that year.There still is discordance. For example, on 17 June at a meeting of the state defense order, Deputy Defense Minister for Armaments Vladimir Popovkin announced that the Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft is practically ready, and in December it would begin flight testing. The completed production of the first fifth-generation aircraft, which will not be flying, and ground testing at the Summer Research Institute in Zhukovsky, Moscow Region. According to Ivanov, the test sample is tested for strength, static and other characteristics. «This will be done this year», - he said (these two statements are taken from tapes of Russian Information Agency).

So what will be - flying (Popovkin) or static (Ivanov) test? Judging by the fact that the first sample PAK FA (three in the assembly in Komsomolsk-on-Amur APO) has not yet brought them to Leah. Gromova, it could be the beginning of this year, namely, static tests. A feature of PAK FA from the Su-27 is the prototype of the aircraft are not manufactured at the pilot plant OKB im. Sukhoi in Moscow (it was built the first three test aircraft), and immediately to the serial plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur."


I swear to God.. every time something on the Pak-FA pops up it keeps getting more and more confusing:confused:


Thanks
just my thought, I think that they are having serious troubles making the first flight deadline this year, so that they are scrambling to say stuff to try not to make people look bad.
 

Viktor

New Member
I mean how much would the RuAF readyness and capabilities suffer if the Mig-31 was retired some 15 years ago or even today?
With strict role in mind MIG-31 proved its efficiency while incorporated leading aircraft tehnologies ... At first designed specialy against USA bombers and cruise missiles as a pure interceptor able to fly exstremly high and fast ... as the cold war ended so did need for massive deployment of expensive interceptor ...
Russia decided to modernize its existing fleet with M2 modernization giving it multirole capability ... so MIG-31 will be able in the future to attack ships with CLUB/Sunburn missiles, perform SEAD missions with Kh-31P / attack ground targets with variaty of missiles and join the fight with R-77 or its successor and still perform its original mission as an interceptor with R-33S/R-37 and its successor R-37M being developt.

While watching pure performance its able to fly higer than F-22 ... has longer cruise range and its cruise range is mutch higher that F-22 .... so I would not underestimate such potential .... still fearsome beast from the east.

And more importantly do you think the PAK-FA will sucessfully replace the Mig-31?
My guess that only PAK-FA will be able to replace it with loosing performance and because of so mutch fighters PAK-FA is needed to replace I dont think will see just 200 of them like in case of bad USA political decision to shut down F-22 production ...

I found some info on the Mig-31, is this correct?
Jup ... its correct.
 

fltworthy

New Member
More Rumors

Another one from the rumor mill: This one an item in a blog by an editor at Aviation Week suggesting that the PAK-FA is expected to fly in October or November.
Ares Homepage

It also reports that three prototype airframes have been assembled - although not all are necessarily destined for flight test. We'll just have to see if the Russians can maintain this latest schedule date.
 

JonMusser

New Member
Russia

Wow, I don't know where to start. Since I want to avoid flamming, I'll add some useful info. Roberto, check out Google and type in phrases such as "Russian Navy", "UK Navy", and "US Navy"..and see the, true, data you will receive. I acquired most of my defense knowledge from the internet.

I've always found Wikipedia to be, mostly, truthful. About 98% correct, with some flaws, no one is perfect. You will learn all about aircraft, ships, bombers.

Don't drink the kool-aid, and find the truth about the defense world.
i do agree with F35Owns however Russian navel capability has never been tested and it would seem that china is coninueing with the Russian navel strategy with its anti ship missile programs as well as anti ship icbm. which has made the us navy nervous since before the cold war ended and led to the Aegis battle system to batter defend against the threat...
on america losing the cold war only only if you think america lost because of liberalization

Jon
 

turin

New Member
I dont think will see just 200 of them like in case of bad USA political decision to shut down F-22 production ...
Considering russian procurement policy over the last decade, the last years even, it would be a challenge in any case. Have a look at their Su-34-procurement and theory vs reality. To go into triple digits over the course of only a few (less than ten) years with a brand new aircraft would be a most remarkable achievement.

@fltworthy

They seem to be zeroing in now on late 2009, which seems to be a decent sign that there is some progress. Its also the first time that they talk so precisely about manufacturing progress. However the whole engine development still seems to cause lots of troubles, and I am very sceptical that they will have a first flight this year, even with the interim engine.
 

kay_man

New Member
Considering russian procurement policy over the last decade, the last years even, it would be a challenge in any case. Have a look at their Su-34-procurement and theory vs reality. To go into triple digits over the course of only a few (less than ten) years with a brand new aircraft would be a most remarkable achievement.

200 does not seem such a farfetched number since the Indians will also be inducting the same aircraft initially . Sine two large airforces plan to induct the aircraft simultaneously and also brazil the cost may come down a bit.
so 120-230 aircraft for ruAF alone may be right.
also the RuAf has decommissioned a lot of planes lately.
 

dragonfire

New Member
200 does not seem such a farfetched number since the Indians will also be inducting the same aircraft initially . Sine two large airforces plan to induct the aircraft simultaneously and also brazil the cost may come down a bit.
so 120-230 aircraft for ruAF alone may be right.
also the RuAf has decommissioned a lot of planes lately.
Actualy India would be inducting close to 300 plus fighters + trainers - There are about 80-90 of the Su-30 MKIs already delivered (out of 230) - 140 Su 30 MKIs. 126 MMRCA fighters. There's also the 16 Mig-29 Ks (albeit for the IN) apart from which the hawks are being delivered (25 delivered - balance - 41). The HJT-36 will see an order for upto 250 aircraft of which atleast 75-100 could be delivered in the next 10 years

Apart from which there would be 50-100 LCA Tejas (mk 2) within that timeframe. Plus the 30 aircraft for the under construction air defense ship (mig-29 k + naval tejas)

Fighters (as on order)
266+16+30 = 312

Fighters expected 312 + 50 = 362

Trainers (as on order)
Hawk - 41

Expected
Hal HJT-36 - 75

Total (as on order) - 353
Total (expected) 362 + 41 + 75 = 478

All in next ten years !!

So definitely Russia can absorb / induct a large fleet - Points to consider is does it have the need, does it have the political will for doing it. does it have the required resources and can it build neccesary production capacity for doing it
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
PhysicsMan
To be honest I don't think it has much to do with capability. The F-22 has 1,500+/- modules but F-35 only has 900 or 1,100 I don't remember off hand. Any way the F-35s radar superior? When it comes to info on AESA radar theres not much out there.
The F-35's APG-81 radar is generally accounted to have ~1200 T/R modules.

When it comes to overall capability, sheer numbers of transmit and receive modules isn't absolutely everything, otherwise fighters would be made with MUCH bigger arrays.

There are significant differences in how much electrical POWER can be transmitted through certain radar modules and what the processors inherent within the radar are able to DO with the radar returns...

The majority of modern fighter sized radar antennas are between 700mm and 900mm's in diameter. The radars are ALL designed to reach certain design goals and to categorically state one is superior to another, based on something as asinine as "radar module counts" which may or may not even be accurate in of themselves, is drawing an extremely long "bow".

Nothing about these issues are completely black and white...
 

Duffy

New Member
PhysicsMan
I had to cut last post short, battery died. :( I think the biggest advantage of the higher number of T/R is the percentage of degradation.
Say 900 T/R is the minimum,1000 T/R=10% and 1500 T/R=40% before
failure. The size of the T/R are governed by manufacturing limitations. So the number is governed by the nose cone size. The capability is governed by the computing power and software. Also out power do to heat.

Below is a like with some basics. The paper was written by Carlo Kopp who I think is an A#@ ! and a little old but the history and basic design info is solid.

Active Electronically Steered Arrays - A Maturing Technology

I had found a paper on the manufacturing of the T/R module's. I will look for it and post the link.
 

Duffy

New Member
The F-35's APG-81 radar is generally accounted to have ~1200 T/R modules.

When it comes to overall capability, sheer numbers of transmit and receive modules isn't absolutely everything, otherwise fighters would be made with MUCH bigger arrays.

There are significant differences in how much electrical POWER can be transmitted through certain radar modules and what the processors inherent within the radar are able to DO with the radar returns...

The majority of modern fighter sized radar antennas are between 700mm and 900mm's in diameter. The radars are ALL designed to reach certain design goals and to categorically state one is superior to another, based on something as asinine as "radar module counts" which may or may not even be accurate in of themselves, is drawing an extremely long "bow".

Nothing about these issues are completely black and white...

You said it all, AD for some reasign I had the 1100 T/R stuck in my head
but you are correct now that you mention it.You also type faster than me :)
 
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PhysicsMan
I had to cut last post short, battery died. :( I think the biggest advantage of the higher number of T/R is the percentage of degradation.
Say 900 T/R is the minimum,1000 T/R=10% and 1500 T/R=40% before
failure. The size of the T/R are governed by manufacturing limitations. So the number is governed by the nose cone size. The capability is governed by the computing power and software. Also out power do to heat.

Below is a like with some basics. The paper was written by Carlo Kopp who I think is an A#@ ! and a little old but the history and basic design info is solid.

Active Electronically Steered Arrays - A Maturing Technology

I had found a paper on the manufacturing of the T/R module's. I will look for it and post the link.
Thanks, it will be an interesting read...
 

Salty Dog

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
It's nice to see at least the radar is coming along for the PAK FA. What about all the other parts of the fighter such as the airframe, engine, flight control, avionics, weapons systems, data link , etc. IMHO seems like PAK FA has a very long way to go.
 
It's nice to see at least the radar is coming along for the PAK FA. What about all the other parts of the fighter such as the airframe, engine, flight control, avionics, weapons systems, data link , etc. IMHO seems like PAK FA has a very long way to go.
If one were to believe the officials, they plan to take it into the air in November/December, so that probably means that the airframe should be pretty much done (not necessarily the coatings though), as well as the flight control. They also officially acknowledged that there are problems with the new engine development (the only issue they admitted).
 

turin

New Member
A report earlier this year said again that all the test aircraft and initial production models would use the Saturn 117 engine. So basically for the next years the PAKFA would have the same engine as the Su-35. The PAKFA-exclusive new engine is in the headlines for development problems well over three years now. Sometimes financial reasons are mentioned, sometimes there seem to be engineering issues. Maybe they just shelve it or introduce it much later as an upgrade.

The radar and avionics seem to get along better. At least thats what their developers say...
 
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