Pentagon to end F-22 program

[F-15 Eagle]

We should consider this good news.

It was the only logical solution. I saw this coming a mile off, the money will be MUCH better spent in the JSF program.

Now we just need the official nail in the coffin.

The US will now be able to release the true performance characteristics of the F-35 without worrying about it stealing sales from the F-22.

I could see it coming too, no surprise to me.

It would be nice to see how good the F-35 really is by the way. That way people will shut the hell up about the F-35 not being good for ATA.

F-35>>>>>>>Su-30.:nutkick

 

[Red]

In your opinion, what point would that be? Once the decision to stop production is final they'll stop producing the long-lead-items first, then step by step the other bits and parts. Machinery will be sold or scrapped, personnel will be assigned to other jobs or companies, as long as providing spare parts is not affected. I don't know what the F-22's ramp-up costs were, bloody expensive is my guess.
It would be very, very expensive to resume production again.

Im not much less cognizant as per the costs of initiating production of the F22 again any more than you are. And I have lingering suspicions that the entire production process would be made to stop and critical machinery sold and scrapped with the means to produce the F-22 lost. I have written in my preceding post that this might be a temporary measure to control costs. I would like to add now that Sec Gate`s decision looks prudent vis-a-vis a none existential threat currently. However, this might change in the near future.

Nevertheless, older planes would need replacements and there are indeed a lot of them. I doubt the USAF would dispense with a good mix of air superiority planes and multi role planes and opt to operate just F-35s.

Also, the F-22s are very expensive to begin with. And I believe that the US, more than anyone else, could ramp up and restart production if they want.

 

[SpudmanWP]

In your opinion, what point would that be? Once the decision to stop production is final they'll stop producing the long-lead-items first, then step by step the other bits and parts. Machinery will be sold or scrapped, personnel will be assigned to other jobs or companies, as long as providing spare parts is not affected. I don't know what the F-22's ramp-up costs were, bloody expensive is my guess.
It would be very, very expensive to resume production again.



Then why not buy F-35 anyway?

Superior F-22 kinematics.

The question was, "what would a low-cost F-22 look like".

This would also qualify as an export F-22 since all F-35 components are exportable.

 

[jaffo4011]

the us could always buy typhoons for its air defence and f35's for its ground attack duties...im sure that eurofighter would let them take a stake or maybe become a full partner.....everyones a winner,and the u.s gets a first class air superiority fighter on the cheap.....

after all we've done it with the harrier and hawk and in sure that the relevant technology codes could eventually,after negotiation,be passed to the u.s to allow them to modify/maintain some of the sensitive technology contained within the typhoon..........

 

[SpudmanWP]

Oh please.... a F-35 would smack a EF.

 

[jaffo4011]

Oh please.... a F-35 would smack a EF.

now i believe that the f35 is going to be a fantastic dual role aircraft,but i think its already generally accepted that as a pure interceptor platform/package the typhoon excells........that was my point,i wasnt attempting to dismiss the f35 in that respect but it fall somewhat behind the f22 and tiffie in the a2a role.im sure that usaf fighter crews would be a little disappointed to be making do with the f35 after experiencing the performance of the superb f22 and late model f15's

having said that,as and when it eventually reaches production it will be great to see it up against the best at red flag.......perhaps then ill have to eat my words?

 

[SpudmanWP]

....perhaps then ill have to eat my words?

What sause would you like with those?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Laws can be changed. It is indeed an option. The US government just doesn't seem to keen on it.

It's not just the Executive of the US Govt - it's Congress and State Dept

eg In 2004 I attended a Defence Conference where Richard Armitage stood up in front of us and stated clearly that if Australia wanted the F-22 then he could see no objections from the US Govt. It was that comment that set the hares running as every man and his dog took it as an opportunity.

Within 4 months Armitage had "lost" his job and been moved on.

Thats why some australian observers still carry on about the F-22 because they assume that because people with authority like Armitage made a comment, that the only reason for us not taking up the offer was due to some internal conspiracy etc....

It's a constant source of frustration as all the loonies have grabbed bits of other information and behaviour and assume that the very people who do the warfighting have traversed to the "dark side" and have not been thinking about national defence issues etc..... unbelieveable, but the lesson is never argue with an idiot because being argumentative and illogical is the one thing that they are better at than you.

 

[rjmaz1]

Superior F-22 kinematics.

The F-22 has inferior kinematics in the current role required of the USAF.

Endurance and range is significantly lower in the F-22.

Maybe they will finally put 6 internal AMRAAMs or 12 of those new smaller AAMs(can't remember the name) and add a supercruse capability to the F-35?

Or they'll just say that the F-35 already has both capabilities and that the F-35 has already gone supersonic with dry thrust

 

[backlash92]

The F-22 has inferior kinematics in the current role required of the USAF.

Endurance and range is significantly lower in the F-22.

Or they'll just say that the F-35 already has both capabilities and that the F-35 has already gone supersonic with dry thrust

can you add a link for the information on the inferior kinematics?

 

[StevoJH]

Oh please.... a F-35 would smack a EF.

In the Eurofighter thread is a post showing a quote from the head of the RAF. It says that the Typhoons will be used for Air Defense and Air Superiority and the F35's will be used for SEAD missions.

 

[Feanor]

The Typhoon is a late 4th gen. The F-35 is an early 5th gen. It will be superior by an order of magnitude. Just to review a few little details, the F-35 is a VLO platform, with mature AESA, and excellent IRST. The Typhoon is behind in all 3.

 

[Firn]

Maybe this is a blessing in disguise - but it is still a bit too early to give a definate answer. Time will tell.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

In the Eurofighter thread is a post showing a quote from the head of the RAF. It says that the Typhoons will be used for Air Defense and Air Superiority and the F35's will be used for SEAD missions.

That doesn't mean the Tiffie will be better than the F-35 in air-to-air. Rather it means that Tiffie in ATA and the F-35 in strike will provide a greater return for the RAF than vice versa. The Tiffie has to be used for something, they aren't going to be thrown away when the F-35 enters service.

 

[Firn]

That doesn't mean the Tiffie will be better than the F-35 in air-to-air. Rather it means that Tiffie in ATA and the F-35 in strike will provide a greater return for the RAF than vice versa. The Tiffie has to be used for something, they aren't going to be thrown away when the F-35 enters service.

Agreed. While there are ATA thread scenarios where the EF seems to be superior I would tend to say that the overall advantage lies with the F-35.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Maybe this is a blessing in disguise - but it is still a bit too early to give a definate answer. Time will tell.

Since 2005 the decision has been to end F-22 production at 183 (+4 supplementals) by 2011. By 2011 there will be 7.5 times more Americans working directly on the F-35 than the F-22 (82,000 vs 11,000) and producing 32 F-35s a year and well on the way to ramping up to full rate 230 a year. There is no fighter gap.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

While there are ATA thread scenarios where the EF seems to be superior I would tend to say that the overall advantage lies with the F-35.

Which are? The F-35 will be superior across the range of possible ATA engagements. Except maybe gun ammo only, scramble to engage an attacker right above the air base. Which isn't really a valid scenario in the modern world.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

The F-22 has inferior kinematics in the current role required of the USAF.

Endurance and range is significantly lower in the F-22.

Or they'll just say that the F-35 already has both capabilities and that the F-35 has already gone supersonic with dry thrust

Yeah they can do that too I guess.....

 

[HK_Thoughtful]

I may have overlooked this in previous threads, but would the f-35 inability to supercruise or TVC negatively influence the planes ability to conduct A2A? While I understand that supercruise is relatively insignificant in WVR scenarios and the utility of TVC is debatable in both WVR and BVR situations, it seems as if there is too much emphasis on the f-35s stealth, even going as far as lacking a gun in the B & C varients.

 

[Bonza]

I may have overlooked this in previous threads, but would the f-35 inability to supercruise or TVC negatively influence the planes ability to conduct A2A? While I understand that supercruise is relatively insignificant in WVR scenarios and the utility of TVC is debatable in both WVR and BVR situations, it seems as if there is too much emphasis on the f-35s stealth, even going as far as lacking a gun in the B & C varients.

Not really. The F-35 will still be able to accelerate to supersonic speeds for weapon release. Despite "supercruise" abilities, aircraft that can do so do not spend much of their time at supersonic speeds, as supercruising or not, this still burns through fuel very quickly. You should be able to find some information somewhere on range reduction suffered by an F-22 supercruising for long periods.

TVC is not very relevant to the F-35's air to air capability. Going purely by platform comparison (and doing this is fraught with peril, see next paragraph), a combination of amazing situational awareness available to the pilot (far superior to even the F-22) and high off-boresight missiles with lock-on-after-launch capability will trump any perceived advantage conferred by thrust vectoring, every time.

More relevant than all that though is the importance of understanding that winning battles (including achieving air superiority) is chiefly determined not by platform specs, but by battlespace management and achieving synergies between warfighting systems.

My opinion, anyway. Your mileage may vary.