Midtguardian Defence Force

Bozoo

New Member
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  • #21
Also the USA and most other nations, aren't going to sell a country that doesn't have diplomatic recognition the weaponry you're listing.
I agree. The scenario is of coarse not entirely correct. It's a game. An intellectual exercise with a sprinkling of reality consisting of a physical representation of every vehicle and weapon system, the procurement problems you describe beeing represented in this imaginary world by the availiability problems and the budgetary restraints aqtually imposed by reality also in the scale model world.

But as war games go, I find this simulation a lot more realistic then most nato wargames I have witnessed the last twenty years where you just drop a rectangular slab of earth somewhere in the atlantic, equip it with a large, well equipped military and an agressive government, call it state orange, and then attack...?

Don't you agree?

Happy New year to you all
 

shrubage

New Member
I beg to differ. In 1988 Norway could field a defence organization of 402.000 out of a population of 4 million, that is 10%. (The encyclopedia of world military weapons, Cresent books 1988) The Midtguardian Defence System needs aprox. 16.000 out of a population of 100.000, 16%. I venture that Midtguardias origins, militaristic inclination and obviuos need of a strong military presence makes the increase up to 16% feasable.

We are not talking a professional army, but an organization based on 4.500 professionals and the rest reservists serving eight weekends a year, a service not exceeding that of the Israelis.

Extremely well funded as Midtguardia is due to its extensive international shipping operations, industrial ownership and oil, it will not have the usual problems of a tight defence budget.

As far as I can see, maintaining a defence system as mentioned in my earlier posting is by no means impossible, even if it is a bit drastic in this time and day.
I hope you don't mind me picking up on this point I really wouldn't like to give the impression I'm trying to hijack your thread.

Its not just manpower I suppose at a pinch if you mobilised every man and woman between 18 and 65 you could just about crew all the weaponry you're listing, but how are you going to maintain it in piece time.

You can't just buy kit like AWACs, AH64, Leopard 2s, Marders, gerpards, Bradleys and then think you can leave them in a hangar untill you need to mobilise them.

Kit like that needs a massive amount of maintainance eg an AWACS squadron with say 5 planes will consist of up to 500 people. Sure a certain percentage of them will be reservists but the solid core will have to be professional.

You've picked disparate pieces of kits eg Bradley and marders so you don't even have commanlity of spares. Just to maintain an individual vehicle typle you'll have to train up mechanics, electricians, armourers, gunfitters, Electronics technicians all to service that particular vehicle.

You're population of 96,000 people simply won't have enough people with the required skills to maintain an army like that.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Feanor, current order of battle:

Midtguradian Army:

1st. Armoured brigade

1. sqdr. HQ
2. sqdr, 24 M1 A1 Abrahms, 6 M2 Bradleys, 2 Geapards + support
3. sqdr. same as 2.
4. sqdr. 24 Leopard I A 4, 6 Marders, 2 Gepards
5. sqdr. cadre strength, M1 on shopping list
6. sqdr. Mech inf. 9 M1, 16 M2
7. sqdr. Artillery, 8 M 109AG3, 6 FISTV, + support
8. sqdr. Air def., 12 Gepards
9. sqdr. Combat engineer, 2 Biber bridges, 3 Dachs, 1 Kieler + support
10. Transport, 12 trucks, 12 fuel bowsers
11. Support, ambulances, admin, MP
12. Recce, M551 Sheridan, MeBøBl Choppers
Looks ridiculous. Two types of MBTs? Less then 100 of each? Training must be a nightmare, same with logistics and maintenance. And for heaven's sake, M1s? Why?

1 st Motorized Brigade.

3 motorized battalions, each with approx 1000 troops on wheels
1 HQ battalion with 105 mm artillery element, Armoured Hummers with TOW
The country is tiny, and likely to fight defensive. This looks like mobile light infantry. You want heavy infantry that will make urban combat a nightmate.

1 divisional HQ
1 artillery BN with 12 M 109 155mm, 12 M 110 203 mm, 6 M 40, 10 LARS
1 air defence BN with 24 Gepards, 12 Chaparral, 6 Roland, mobile radar
1 Engineer Bn, bridging, mine clearing, Dachs, Kielers, M9 ++
(two major civilian engineer firms incorporated in war time)
1. Transport Bn
1. RDF Rapid deployment force 12 M 60 + Marders
1. MP Bn
1 Signals Bn, Eloka, SIGINT, ELINT, Ptarmigan ++

1 Independant Mech infantry Coy M113, M41
1 Independant Recce Coy
1 Field hospital
1 Long Range Action Group

These are the units I remember, but there are a lot more smaller units and units under construction.
You have a plethora of different equipment. Unify it more. You want 1 tank in sevice and something less expensive or logistically taxing then the M1. I'm hesitant to make a recommendation, as you realistically don't need heavy armor but if you're insistant on including it I would try for something cheap. Even Chinese or Russian gear. Though then we have to question the integration cost. In terms of western gear Leopard IIs seem to be getting sold off at record low prices recently. 1 APC/IFV in service (I recommend a heavy IFV, like bradleys, or BMP-3s, something thats well armed and well armored since your infantry is going to be on the defensive while the tank rgt. threatens the enemy capital). Self-propelled artillery? Is that even necessary? Again if you absolutely must have it, try to get something with a unified chassis like the T-80 and the Msta-S howitzer, or the Leo-II and the PzH-2000 to simplify driver training and logistical hurdles.

You ADS seems to be a bit of an overkill.You country is tiny, with what you have GBAD density will be something like Russia has over Moscow. Are they all networked? Are the older systems modernized? If not I suggest replacing them. Again the cheap and efficient route is getting Russian gear (and in the case of ADS it may be a better route to go), but if politics or logistics are of concern you can try to get American or even Swedish systems. I suggest you unify the ADS, with two types of systems, something for point air defense, like a SAM-SPAAG hybrid, and fairly mobile. It can move with the armored regiment, and the infantry troops, shoot down low-flying heli's, or even jets, and if worst comes to worst it can provide suppression fire against enemy ground troops (like the ZSU-23-2 did in the Chechen wars). For the second system I suggest something like a divisional-level SAM that can provide decent airspace control capablilities, and be modern enough to prevent easy jamming or SEAD. I'm not sure what western hardware qualifies (as my familiarity with it is more limited) but SA-13, the most recent ones (Buk-2ME) should be enough. Maybe someone can help me out with a western equivalent of it. Make sure it's something that is networked into the overall C3.

AIR Force

See earlier postings.

In addition, one mobile, foreward Helicopter base
and one airbase
+ radar SOC
Again you hardly need your huge airforce. Unify the helicopter fleet as much as possibly. 2 chopper types, one transport, one attack. I'm tempted to suggest Mi-35M, which can do both, and a small fleet of Mi-17V5's for transport specialty. The Apache is quite expensive and difficult to operate, but if you can afford it it's quite possible. But then ditch all your other attack heli's and instead get a larger force of them. I don't know that you even want fighters. You might want to consider something like a combat-trainer as your main aircraft. Possibly something like the korean T-50, or Russian Yak-130 (again western equivalents of, I can't recall of the top of my head).

NAVY

One warf
One caostal fort
2 ex US coastguard cutters
1 LST (navys largest ship)
3 LCUs

Coastal subs main shopping priority
Main shopping priority might be small missile boats, rather then subs. They can carry quite a punch in terms of ASMs, and are small and cheap to operate. If your IADS can cover the airspace over the coastline, they should be fairly safe from the air.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Sorry to double post but this is a separate idea, and I want to separate it from my suggestions in the previous post. Here's what I would have as an order of battle if I absolutely had to have a militry (which from the political stand point you hardly need). The previous military you described is motr appropriate to a country the size of maybe Belarus.

~a single heavy infantry regiment.

4 btlns at maybe 500-1000 mean each, heavy IFVs for urban combat, possibly even something like the BTR-T except with more of a BMP-3 style turret (I'm sure they'd be happy to do the adjustment work for an order of maybe ~200 units). Artillery, something towed, 120 mm for heavy support. Mortars for light. ATGMs, and MANPADS. Lots of them. Crew served heavy weapons, lots of them. No tanks. Waste of money in my opinion. About 30-50% should be reservists.

ADS try for maybe a single unit of SPAAG-SAM hybrids that can double as suppresion weapons against ground. Modernized Shilkas or Tunguskas might be ideal. You want maybe 20-30 at most, so you can protect your HQ, and troops. In terms of air you want at most a single squadron of helos that can do both transport and attack work. Hinds are perfect, so are Mi-17's. Possibly scrap the helo idea altogether. Hardly a required asset.

For Navy try 2-3 missile boats at most. Possibly even coastal ASMs, and nothing but patrol boats.

EDIT: Keep in mind that adding a single type of additional equipment to the set up immediately drives logistical costs skywards. Which is why you want to keep it simple, unified, cheap, and rugged.

EDIT2: Moved to the appropriate forum. This is general defense discussion, not aviation.
 
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Bozoo

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  • #25
Feanor and Shrubage, I seem to need a bigger country:)

The reason why I have disparate equipment is availiability. By and large, the stuff is difficult to come by. I buy what I can when I get hold of it. The point is, all the equipment listet in the order of battle allready exists in my inventory.

I'm perfectly aware of the problem this poses in regard to logistics and training, and it's much worse, because I operate a large number of different trucks, MAN, Steyer, MB, FAUN, Magirius, M 931, and so on and so on. The point beeing, this is reality.

I have tried to alleviate this by creating the individual units with one type of equipment.

The reason why I have Leopard I's is that these were bought before the M1's existed. I am loathe to scrapping anything. Even so, I actually have retired all WWII era tanks as well as my M 47 Patton tanks. I seem to recall that Midtguardia is not alone in thinking this way. The USSR never retired anything, but passed obsolete equipment to lower echelon units all the way down to the T 34 beeing in reserve duty up until the late 70's. The Israelies cept their M 4 Shermans into the eightys and the Nazis even used the Tchecks tanks as Panzer II's and III's until 1943. The situation is not ideal, but you take what you can get and make the best of it. Even though I do operate some obsolecent weapons, I do not use obsolete equipment.

The reason why I use SP Artillery is mainly to avoid counterbatteryfire by moving much more rapidly than towed artillery allows. Against a 1. tier nation I would specify max 1 minute of fire before moving, this even as I operate in dispersed mode with only two guns pr fire unit. With 2. and 3. tier nations this is specified to 20 minutes, although it depends on intelligence info as to whether the enemy has artillery tracking radars or not.

Air defence is mainly Gepards, which to a large extent is comparable to the ZSU-23-2, athough with a larger caliber. I do need some high altitude/long range stuff. Obviously Patriot would be a treat.

East european equipment is just not availiable, apart from some russian MBT's and BTRs. I'm also most familiar with western stuff, but I'm very intrigued by the Tatra 120 mm wheeled artillery.

Anyway, judging by your feedback, my military seems to be of sufficient ability to make most imaginable agressors think twice before attacking, which is very gratifying for me. It means I'm not completely in the dark. Having too much is always better than too little, if I can get it all to work that is.

My aspirations have evolved over the years.

At first, they were to be able to defend my self against all other H0 scale operators. I beleive I have reached that point. I do not think I have seriuos competitors out there today that can feild an army which will overwhelm me.

After some years I started thinking about the scenario contained in my postings here, wanting to be able to defend myself against the combined forces of Norway and Sweden. To be honest, with the forces to their disposal today, I beleive I could hold my own.

Later on I contemplated stopping a USSR Motor Rifle Division. I'm not sure how I would do, but I think I could put up quite a fight.

Finally, I would like to be able to give pause for thought even to a US Marine Corp expeditionary corps. I have not yet reached that point, but keep an eye on me, and maybe you would be surprised. The hawkeyes are a big step in that direction.

I appreciate your feedback very much and it has given me food for thought. I'll have to dwelve more closely into peacetime maintenance and training as well as logistics to try to see if I have the manpower and resources to keep my army in fighting shape.

I might even consider retiering some of the Vietnam era stuff.

But the armoured brigade is a must. I do not beleive in the light infantry approach. I need an armoured fist to bang on Norway and Swedens front door if they try to eliminate me, and for that, heavy armour is a must.

Whats wrong with the M 1?

Thanks anyway, greatly appreciated guys.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Feanor and Shrubage, I seem to need a bigger country:)

The reason why I have disparate equipment is availiability. By and large, the stuff is difficult to come by. I buy what I can when I get hold of it. The point is, all the equipment listet in the order of battle allready exists in my inventory.

I'm perfectly aware of the problem this poses in regard to logistics and training, and it's much worse, because I operate a large number of different trucks, MAN, Steyer, MB, FAUN, Magirius, M 931, and so on and so on. The point beeing, this is reality.
No this is not reality. The USSR had a huge inventory of every type of equipment. T-34's were supplied by locally produced spare parts. The same for the Israeli's. When you have 24 tanks of one type and 24 of another type this is a whole other story. The per unit maintenance costs increase fatantastically. It's a riduculous idea. If you want to stop a Soviet motor-rifles division, heavy infantry with plenty of crew-serviced heavy weapons in an urban combat environment will do you much more good then this hodge podge of units, which seems to be a minituarized scale of real army. Smaller armies can't afford to have as many different types of equipment as you do. It's just not real.

I have tried to alleviate this by creating the individual units with one type of equipment.
When the units are 24 tanks, you're wasting your time. It certainly alleviates the burden somewhat, but overall it's still somewhat ridiculous.

The reason why I have Leopard I's is that these were bought before the M1's existed. I am loathe to scrapping anything. Even so, I actually have retired all WWII era tanks as well as my M 47 Patton tanks. I seem to recall that Midtguardia is not alone in thinking this way. The USSR never retired anything, but passed obsolete equipment to lower echelon units all the way down to the T 34 beeing in reserve duty up until the late 70's. The Israelies cept their M 4 Shermans into the eightys and the Nazis even used the Tchecks tanks as Panzer II's and III's until 1943. The situation is not ideal, but you take what you can get and make the best of it. Even though I do operate some obsolecent weapons, I do not use obsolete equipment.
You do understand economies of scale, right? The per unit cost of keeping 12 000 T-34's is much lower then the per unit cost of 12 T-34's.

The reason why I use SP Artillery is mainly to avoid counterbatteryfire by moving much more rapidly than towed artillery allows. Against a 1. tier nation I would specify max 1 minute of fire before moving, this even as I operate in dispersed mode with only two guns pr fire unit. With 2. and 3. tier nations this is specified to 20 minutes, although it depends on intelligence info as to whether the enemy has artillery tracking radars or not.
In an urban setting the significance shrinks rapidly. And don't forget a skilled towed-gun crew can relocate just as rapidly. Finally you seem to have a mixed of towed and SP guns. Again a problem. Towed guns are cheaper, and therefore far more appropriate to a country of ~100 000 people.

Air defence is mainly Gepards, which to a large extent is comparable to the ZSU-23-2, athough with a larger caliber. I do need some high altitude/long range stuff. Obviously Patriot would be a treat.
Obviously it would be a useless high end piece of equipment which your tiny country can neither afford not support properly. Again if you want high-end equipment for such a small country Russian or Chinese is a far better idea because they're typically far less expensive for comparable performance.

East european equipment is just not availiable, apart from some russian MBT's and BTRs. I'm also most familiar with western stuff, but I'm very intrigued by the Tatra 120 mm wheeled artillery.
I'm sure if you buy from Ukraine or Belarus, Soviet war-stocks refurbished possibly, are definetly an option. Just to throw you a comparison, off the top of my head an M1 costs 6-8 million USD. For 72 tanks (to fill your 3 btlns) you would need to fork up over 500 million USD. And that's just price tag of the tanks. Next you need spares, ammunition, trainig for the crews, maintenance. All of that will eat your tiny budget. An old Soviet T-72B which for your purposes is all the same, will cost you under 500 000 a piece. A brand new shiny T-90S will cost you 2.2 mil. USD. The price tag is significantly lower.

Anyway, judging by your feedback, my military seems to be of sufficient ability to make most imaginable agressors think twice before attacking, which is very gratifying for me. It means I'm not completely in the dark. Having too much is always better than too little, if I can get it all to work that is.
You're trying to create a real country real society. So no. The answer is that you can't make it all work. It's not possible.

My aspirations have evolved over the years.

At first, they were to be able to defend my self against all other H0 scale operators. I beleive I have reached that point. I do not think I have seriuos competitors out there today that can feild an army which will overwhelm me.
Your country exists within a real context. Norway and Sweden. They are your potential opponents. That is who you need to evaluate your capabilities against.

After some years I started thinking about the scenario contained in my postings here, wanting to be able to defend myself against the combined forces of Norway and Sweden. To be honest, with the forces to their disposal today, I beleive I could hold my own.
Depends on how willing they are to shell your capital city into complete oblivion.

Later on I contemplated stopping a USSR Motor Rifle Division. I'm not sure how I would do, but I think I could put up quite a fight.
Hardly. They would be MORE then willing to drop enough shells on you to resemble a small nuke. Not to mention the USSR had more tactical nukes then MR divisions. ;) Finally a Soviet MR division doesn't fight in a vacuum. It has aerial support assets, and if it's succesffully advancing it has potential re-inforcements. Finally Soviet MR divisions existed within a certain military strucutre. One that could replace attrition, and if need be turn your entire country into one pool of fire. So taking it outside that context and comparing it to your military is hardly a worth intellectual exercise. Soviet MR's were not independent expeditionary formations. They were rigidly locked in place into their deployments, and C3.

Finally, I would like to be able to give pause for thought even to a US Marine Corp expeditionary corps. I have not yet reached that point, but keep an eye on me, and maybe you would be surprised. The hawkeyes are a big step in that direction.
Not with a country of 100 000. Nor do you need to. You're trying to represent a real society. How worried is Mitguardian society about a US Marine corps level force attacking it? Not at all.

But the armoured brigade is a must. I do not beleive in the light infantry approach. I need an armoured fist to bang on Norway and Swedens front door if they try to eliminate me, and for that, heavy armour is a must.

Whats wrong with the M 1?

Thanks anyway, greatly appreciated guys.
They're expensive. Both the armored brigade as a whole, and the M1s in particular. Why I was suggesting Russian or Chinese kits is because they are far less expensive. They would be far more realistic in price. Though again, you don't need to have armor for an army your size. Estonia with a population of over 1 million people has no armored units. ;)

Finally you didn't tell us how large the budget is. I strongly suggest you consider re-organizing the armed forces into something along the lines of the force structure I suggested. Remember a heavy Mech. Inf. Rgt. of around 3000 men is more then capable of banging on Sweden's or Norway's door. The question is what will happen to it (or your armored brigade) if it tries to do that. And the answer is simple, it will be annihiliated. Both have the air power to do it. Never mind their actual armed forces.

A worthy goal for you would be to build an armed forces that can turn your capital city into living hell for anyone trying to assault it. Ultimately however whenever you're dealing with formations that much larger then your own, they can always ignore the whole problem by simply bringing ridiculous overmatch to the table, and annihilating anything, from your capital city, to your entire country.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Attached is a side profile view of an upgraded HAL (Hellenic Air Force) F-4F, with EO targeting (not sure of the type, probably Lightning II) pod and Paveway II LGB in addition to AIM-120B's. An F-4 with AIM-120B and AN/APG-66 equipped would be able to engage several targets (4+) simultaneously at greater range than the AIM-7M. Its a significant increase in BVR capability.

The AN/APG-66 is the radar used in the F-16, thus it is highly capable, widely available and small enough to fit in the F-4F airframe without modification. You wouldn't be able to tell from the outside that the work had been completed.

The AIM-120 is quite different in shape to the AIM-7M. The AIM-7M has much larger forward fins and the aft fins are a different shape. Additionally the AIM-120 is a smaller (in width) and lighter missile. It can be used on AIM-9 hard points, AIM-7 can not.

The F-4F's would need to be equipped with Link 16 to effectively communicate with the E-2C's.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
I will consider the F16.
Have a think about it, they are cheap in full scale so they should be cheaper in H0 scale too.

The Hawkeyes are of paramount importance as I must ensure a degree of air superiority to ensure that my ground troops do not deteriorate to nothing more then a target rich environment for the enemy. As far as I can see, my best shot woult be the proposed upgrade of my F 4's combined with the E2C Hawkeye. As you can see from the posting on history and geograhpy, Midguardia is not a poor country, quite the opposite. Even so, the USD 300 we must pay for the E2C is as much as for 20 MBTs, so it is not with an easy mind I have ordered the Hawkeyes. I do beleive though, that the Hawkeyes might be a way in to international co-operations to attempt to gain acceptance as a country, which gives the Hawkeye buy a greater political weight.
The importance of Airborne ISR is widely known in modern military, the addition of a theater wide radar picture and off board missile cuing will dramatically increase your BVR capability. I was just the cost I was questioning, and clearly you have the money and are willing to spend it.

By the way, whats your nations GDP and whats your % spent on defence?

I dont have any pictures yet, but I can of coarse try to take some from the individual units. I am going to exibit the Midtguardian Defence System at a modelling exibition in october and will have some professional photos taken and will try to get someone to help me post these here, as I am no great computor expert. Unfortunately, Gustavsberg, the capitol, is packed in boxes due to a recent divorce, but I hope to start reconstructing.
Thats a shame. I'd love to see the whole lot in action. Pictures of units would be great.

Do you agree with Shrubages assesment of the Apache? Should I consentrate on modernizing the Cobra? I would rather not, though, as I use the Cobra to a number of missions, especially as escorts for transport convois and units on the move.
No i don't. Apache's are in many ways more lethal than AH-1's (depending on the vintage, AH-1Z's are practically state of the art), but they both fill the same roll. Buying Apache's when you have reasonably modern AH-1's is a waste of money IMHO. As long as your AH-1's are equipped with the right EO (IR) gear, decent comms and at the very least TOW missiles (preferably Helfire II). They are plenty capable as direct fire support platforms, as recon platforms and as tank busters.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Feranor.

Mate i just wanted to make a few comments on your prior arguments.

I think what Bozoo meant by "Its Reality" is not that it works in the real word, but he has already made the investment in the hardware, and because no one is made of money, the purchases have been piecemeal. Thus there is a bit of a hodge podge of equipment. Thats reality, and thats the constraints we have to deal with.

As for the M1A1 being unreasonable, well thats a subjective assessment. The platform has been successfully used by nations with very small armored corps before; Australia has only 52 examples IIRC and we have been extremely pleased with their performance, including their legendary insatiable thirst. As for them being too expensive, well again thats subjective. As we have seen this nation is extremely wealthy (reminds me of Kuwait in many ways, who IIRC have found amour necessary ;) ) and it is not unreasonable to state that a nation of this size could, feasibly have acquired 62 odd examples with an eventual goal of ~110. Additionally the historical anglo relationship has obviously manifested itself in a reasonably close relationship with the US.

Regarding Ex Soviet and Chinese Kit. Obvously for historical and political reasons (including a close relationship with the anglo-saxon world) the nation has used western kit previously, obviously during the cold war the USSR was considered a significant threat (it was by both Norway and Sweden) thus Soviet equipment was out of the question. There is a significant difference between eastern and western block equipment in terms of logistics requirements, build quality and doctrine. Thus there would be significant issues with operating eastern and western block equipment concurrently, or moving to ex soviet or chinese kit. Both sets of equipment are designed around a distinct operational doctrine, and moving to one with mass as primacy without the necessary mass would cause significant issues. Their defense force has a long history of using western kit, they have close ties with the west and they can afford it. I cant see any benefit in now re equipping with undoubtedly less capable kit (M1A1 for a chinese tank or a T-80?).
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
With the old leopards I would turn them into fixed gun emplacements like many small nations do with outdated equipment (old russian tanks T-34 etc). While not ideal, in certain situations its better than just a AK-47. Place them near high value targets, on hills, choke points, beaches etc. Even if they aren't manned it gives the opposition more targets. By manning them on a rotational bases, it would give them a major head ache.

While operating Leopards (esp older versions like you have) would be troublesome just maintaining the turret would be fairly easy and within your countries means. Shells and oil is cheap running costs would be simular to a large forklift. Extensive use of simulators and regular rotation will extend service lift.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Feranor.

Mate i just wanted to make a few comments on your prior arguments.

I think what Bozoo meant by "Its Reality" is not that it works in the real word, but he has already made the investment in the hardware, and because no one is made of money, the purchases have been piecemeal. Thus there is a bit of a hodge podge of equipment. Thats reality, and thats the constraints we have to deal with.
Ah. I see where the confusion stemmed from. Sorry if I came off as somewhat brusque Bozoo, I'm not trying to be intimidating. But if you're trying to recreate a real society just consider that your equipment in no way matches your country. :)

As for the M1A1 being unreasonable, well thats a subjective assessment. The platform has been successfully used by nations with very small armored corps before; Australia has only 52 examples IIRC and we have been extremely pleased with their performance, including their legendary insatiable thirst. As for them being too expensive, well again thats subjective. As we have seen this nation is extremely wealthy (reminds me of Kuwait in many ways, who IIRC have found amour necessary ;) ) and it is not unreasonable to state that a nation of this size could, feasibly have acquired 62 odd examples with an eventual goal of ~110. Additionally the historical anglo relationship has obviously manifested itself in a reasonably close relationship with the US.
Absolutely. But 52 is quite a bit more then 24. Especially since Aus. doesn't operate a second type of MBT in addition to the M1. Finally Aus. has a much larger budget then our hypothetical country with a population of 100 000. Even Kuwait, which is swimming in oil, has a much larger population and most likely much larger GDP. And then what MBTs does Kuwait have? Serb. M-84? Not nearly as expensive. Overall I find it very hard to believe that a country of 100 000 can afford two full tank btlns (and I mean maintenance alone, not acquisition cost) of two different types of MBTs. In fact it's been mentioned that the population isn't large enough to effectively operate the huge list of equipment that is in the armed forces.

Regarding Ex Soviet and Chinese Kit. Obvously for historical and political reasons (including a close relationship with the anglo-saxon world) the nation has used western kit previously, obviously during the cold war the USSR was considered a significant threat (it was by both Norway and Sweden) thus Soviet equipment was out of the question. There is a significant difference between eastern and western block equipment in terms of logistics requirements, build quality and doctrine. Thus there would be significant issues with operating eastern and western block equipment concurrently, or moving to ex soviet or chinese kit. Both sets of equipment are designed around a distinct operational doctrine, and moving to one with mass as primacy without the necessary mass would cause significant issues. Their defense force has a long history of using western kit, they have close ties with the west and they can afford it. I cant see any benefit in now re equipping with undoubtedly less capable kit (M1A1 for a chinese tank or a T-80?).
Absolutely correct. However I don't think it's realistic to think that M1s would have been purchased in the first place. Especially a grand total of 24. Again my suggestion would be to reorganize the army along the lines of a single heavy infantry brigade, with possibly a small helos detachment, and some tactical ADS. I threw out there the suggestion of eastern MBTs as a future potential because they're far less expensive, and thus actually affordable. They also usually have much lower maintenance requirements, and are often designed to be easily used by reservists or conscripts. I personally don't think any MBTs are necessary (or affordable) given the context. The reason I used Russian equipment in my example is because I'm much more familiar with it. Feel free to substitute it for western equivalents.

Again my entire critique revolves around the fact that this is a country on the scale of Monaco, sandwiched between two large and in modern times relatively peaceful neighbors, with a small population, and no real need for any major military.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Absolutely. But 52 is quite a bit more then 24. Especially since Aus. doesn't operate a second type of MBT in addition to the M1. Finally Aus. has a much larger budget then our hypothetical country with a population of 100 000. Even Kuwait, which is swimming in oil, has a much larger population and most likely much larger GDP. And then what MBTs does Kuwait have? Serb. M-84? Not nearly as expensive. Overall I find it very hard to believe that a country of 100 000 can afford two full tank btlns (and I mean maintenance alone, not acquisition cost) of two different types of MBTs. In fact it's been mentioned that the population isn't large enough to effectively operate the huge list of equipment that is in the armed forces.
Generically i would agree with you. However we are dealing with his fictional state and we don't know its GDP or defense budget. Thus we cant assume the current equipment choice and its inerrant logistical deficiencies are prohibitive to the point of making this unfeasible.

In general terms I agree, a mechanized brigade with a single tank battalion would be a more realistic option for a nation that small (still very large). However without knowing what financial resources we have to deal with we cant rule the current scenario out.

It may not be the most efficient by any means, but I dont think its unreasonable.

Absolutely correct. However I don't think it's realistic to think that M1s would have been purchased in the first place. Especially a grand total of 24. Again my suggestion would be to reorganize the army along the lines of a single heavy infantry brigade, with possibly a small helos detachment, and some tactical ADS. I threw out there the suggestion of eastern MBTs as a future potential because they're far less expensive, and thus actually affordable. They also usually have much lower maintenance requirements, and are often designed to be easily used by reservists or conscripts. I personally don't think any MBTs are necessary (or affordable) given the context. The reason I used Russian equipment in my example is because I'm much more familiar with it. Feel free to substitute it for western equivalents.
Personally i would have gone for Leo II's, arguably a superior platform to the M1 when you take cost, maintenance and logistics into account. There have been hundreds of them on the post cold war arms market for rock bottom prices. They are formidable machines, defiantly my choice.

Again my entire critique revolves around the fact that this is a country on the scale of Monaco, sandwiched between two large and in modern times relatively peaceful neighbors, with a small population, and no real need for any major military.
Well there are other nations who face a similar strategic landscape (more benign in fact) and spend billions on defense. Singapore is sandwiched between a friendly, democratic Malaysia on one side, and a friendly and democratic Indonesia on the other. Neither has ever attempted an invasion. Yet Singapore spends 6% of GDP on defense, has an air force as capable as the RAAF and an army roughly the size of Malaysia's. This nation has been attacked by Norway and Sweden in the past thus has more reason to spend up on defense but Singapore.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I still think that a single mechanized heavy infantry brigade would be a much more worth investment. As it stands he has little heavy infantry as such. His armored units would be busy doing their little door banging act, and what he has left would be thoroughly demolished by either Sweden or Norway, both of whom have significant strike capabilities, something he can't protect himself from adequately. Though your GDP relevant point is valid, lets keep in mind that the population is 100 000. So given that his scenario puts ~4-5% in the permanent armed forces, that's not enough to keep the equipment he already has in operational condition. And the higher his % of military spending the worse off he is economically. The country is in fairly fertile land, and has some oil, but it's not swimming in oil, nor is it particularly large in terms of any other valuable commodities. It might be doing better then average, being an offshore zone and everything, but I doubt it's military spending is large enough to maintain the equipment in working order. Unless they have magically gigantic sized income that comes out of nowhere, the picture he painted is not in any way capable of supporting the military in question.

EDIT: By the way, the equipment problems that he faces with tons of different types, aren't just his tank forces. Look at his other equipment too. It's a nightmare. I don't know how large ghis budget IS, but I know it would have to be pretty damn large to keep all of that running.

The country of Georgia, with population of iirc 4 million, has an armed forces comparable to what he has here.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Singapore is sandwiched between a friendly, democratic Malaysia on one side, and a friendly and democratic Indonesia on the other. Neither has ever attempted an invasion. Yet Singapore spends 6% of GDP on defense, has an air force as capable as the RAAF and an army roughly the size of Malaysia's.
I was lurking in this thread and thought that the hypothetical country's defence policy sounded a little like Singapore's (but I did not want to be so presumptuous).

I do broadly agree with what Ozzy Blizzard says about Singapore and its relations with our neighbours and that some of it would be applicable to the hypothetical country.

May I just add that Singapore historically spends 4% - 5% of our GDP on defence. Since the 1970s, Singapore had announced that our defence spending will be limited to a max of 6% to avoid an arms race with Malaysia.

Broadly, current relations between Malaysia, Indonesia and Singapore would be described by all 3 governments as 'excellent'. However, historically, there are periods of tension or disagreements, where 'anti-Singapore' protests would take place (for a few months). During these periods of tension, there would be threats issued or some form of pressure applied on Singapore. However, these 'minor problems' are usually swept under the carpet, so to speak.

Singapore's improving defence capabilities is intended to benefit Singaporeans. Our conscription service period has been shortened from 2.5 years to 2 years. And our reserve cycle was also recently shortened from 13 years to 10 years.
 
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Bozoo

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Ah. I see where the confusion stemmed from. Sorry if I came off as somewhat brusque Bozoo, I'm not trying to be intimidating. But if you're trying to recreate a real society just consider that your equipment in no way matches your country. :)



Absolutely. But 52 is quite a bit more then 24. Especially since Aus. doesn't operate a second type of MBT in addition to the M1. Finally Aus. has a much larger budget then our hypothetical country with a population of 100 000. Even Kuwait, which is swimming in oil, has a much larger population and most likely much larger GDP. And then what MBTs does Kuwait have? Serb. M-84? Not nearly as expensive. Overall I find it very hard to believe that a country of 100 000 can afford two full tank btlns (and I mean maintenance alone, not acquisition cost) of two different types of MBTs. In fact it's been mentioned that the population isn't large enough to effectively operate the huge list of equipment that is in the armed forces.
Hi guys. Back again. First of all Feanor, don't worry. I totally accept the fact that I'm a rank amateur in this forum. I'm not really intimidatet, but appriciate your comments very much.:)

Back to the M1. I do not have a grand total of 24 M1's. I have 60. Two complete armoured squadrons each with 24 M1's, an additional 9 M1's in the Mech.Inf squadron (a part of the armoured brigade, supporting the armoured squadrons when infantry heavy units are necessary) and the final 3 M1's as the brigade commanders personal vehicle with two "wingman" tanks.

My goal is to buy another 56 M1's, thus deploying the 5th squadron, which is currently only at cadre strength, with 24 M1's, replacing the 5th squadrons Leo I A4s with another 24 M1's, using the Leo's as a divisional reserve, and finally buying 8 tanks as strategic reserve, which is the number of tanks I can transport simutaniously on my Elephant tank transporters.

Actually, I have not worked out the simulated budget, but I might try to find out what this would cost me in Midtguardian kroners. I'm going to keep my armoured squadron, which, when complete, would field a grand total of 108 M1's
 

shrubage

New Member
Actually, I have not worked out the simulated budget, but I might try to find out what this would cost me in Midtguardian kroners. I'm going to keep my armoured squadron, which, when complete, would field a grand total of 108 M1's
I'm sorry to sound repetitive, I realise that a big part of your motivation is to buy kit that you can model but I want to reiterate the point that Feanor and other have made.

Okay you've bought 108 M1s, I've never encountered a Tank regiment equipped with them but I have worked with a Challenger II regiment. I think you've a notion in your head that you can utilise this equipment with part timers and I don't really think that's accurate.

As well as the Tank crews each squadron will have a first line fitter section with typically a recovery variant and an APC type with first line electronics technicians, Gunfitters, Mechanics another dozen guys in all. Back at RHQ you'll have the supply chain, signals det, a regimental workshop (metal smiths, instrument technicians etc) and various others, Your regiment when fully manned will easily be 600 guys. A lot of those trades will have to be full time soldiers especially the maintenance guys at most you'll get away with 50% reservists and even they will probably have had to serve in the regulars at some stage.

So that’s two regiments 1200 personnel, For that many tanks you're also going to have second line maintenance, guys that repair the LRU's that the first line guys replace, going by how the British army works that’s going to be battalion sized and another 400 to 500 guys. Also I don't know how the Australians do it but British tanks go for fourth line overhaul every few years which is typically a mixture of civvies and military that will probably be a contract with the manufacturer. Incidentally if you ever pissed of the US and they cut off the spare parts your tanks wouldn’t last long.

What I'm saying is 108 tanks will take at least 1800 guys to operate, Your countries population is 100,000, its just not feasible.
 

Bozoo

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I still think that a single mechanized heavy infantry brigade would be a much more worth investment. As it stands he has little heavy infantry as such. His armored units would be busy doing their little door banging act, and what he has left would be thoroughly demolished by either Sweden or Norway, both of whom have significant strike capabilities, something he can't protect himself from adequately. Though your GDP relevant point is valid, lets keep in mind that the population is 100 000. So given that his scenario puts ~4-5% in the permanent armed forces, that's not enough to keep the equipment he already has in operational condition. And the higher his % of military spending the worse off he is economically. The country is in fairly fertile land, and has some oil, but it's not swimming in oil, nor is it particularly large in terms of any other valuable commodities. It might be doing better then average, being an offshore zone and everything, but I doubt it's military spending is large enough to maintain the equipment in working order. Unless they have magically gigantic sized income that comes out of nowhere, the picture he painted is not in any way capable of supporting the military in question.

EDIT: By the way, the equipment problems that he faces with tons of different types, aren't just his tank forces. Look at his other equipment too. It's a nightmare. I don't know how large ghis budget IS, but I know it would have to be pretty damn large to keep all of that running.

The country of Georgia, with population of iirc 4 million, has an armed forces comparable to what he has here.
I absolutely agree with your suggestion about heavy infantry, and will start converting one of my motorized infantry battalions into a heavy infantry battalion, as I fully understand the usefulness of the heavier firepower, I have some quiestions though.

My first thought when thinking about heavy infantry, is supplying the unit with IFVs, in my case the M2 Bradley would be the best choice, as I already deploy more than 50 of these. But this would mean aquiring the corresponding support units, such as recovery, transport, recce, and air defence units, thus actually creating a Mech Infantry Bn, which I think might be a bit over the top as this unit is primarily intended to FIBUA combat.

I think it would maybe be a good idea to build the unit around the armoured Hummer with TOW II, Avengers, 105 mm towed light artillery, 50 cal' and whatever modern heavy infantry weapons I can lay my hands on. I have to update my knowledge on this to see if there are some new, interesting weapon systems for such use developed the last 10 years (which, more or less, is where my updates stopped) Any ideas would be appreciated.

As for the Norwegian capability to repel my "door banging act", I think you are wrong. As far as I can see, my armoured brigade would be a major threat even to a mobilized norwegian military. Without mobilization and with, lets see, one week prior notice of Midtguardian intentions, I think Norway would be unable to defend its capital. It would be interesting to see which forces you guys think Norway would be able to field against me. I know the Swedes have somewhat more than Norway and with their capital much further away I would probably have greater difficulties of threatening Stockholm.

As to the GDP question, please remember that Midtguardia has a major merchant fleet sailing international waters (just like Norway had when WWII broke out, when the Norwegian merchant fleet was the worlds third largest, generating a major income from international earnings) this, to some extent, explaining "the magically, giant sized income".

Finally, on the logistic problem, catering for the different types of equipment, I'm a little bit non-plussed about the amount of flack coming my way in this regard.:p:

First of all, I know Norway for generations, have operated two types of tanks in comparable number as Midtguardia, e.g. in the 80's when operating Leopard I's as well as M 48 (in a norwegian configuration), without causing insurmountable problems.

Secondly, the problems of maintenence and training are really not that much greater due to also using the Leopard I, this mainlys because many of the specialized armoured vehicles I do operate, are based on the Leopard I chassis, such as the Dachs (engineer vehicle), Gepard (air defence tank), Bergepanzer (recovery vehicle), Kieler (mine clearing) as well as the Leopard main battle tank.

Thirdly, the problem of training, maintenance and spares posed by different wheeled vehicles, are not that great. I do, infact, myself, operate three different motorvehicles in real life scale 1:1, taking care of everything from simple maintenance to major refurbishing, one of which is an ex mil off road vehicle, without this causing any problems what so ever. (This in addition to my day to day cars) I have all the necessary tools and equipment and the proven ability to undertake any needed repairs, even though I'm not a trained mechanic, but a lawyer. I have difficulty in beleiving that the maintenance and logistics created by operating a number of different vehicles will be insurmountable, I understand it will put a strain on such resources that could be avoided by stramlining, an option I unfortunately do not have the luxuory of entertaining. I do understand that this is more complicated with the tracked vehicle.

I absoloutely do not agree that a permanent force of 5 - 6000 is not sufficiant to maintain operability of the listed equipment, as this is the same size as the norwegian permanent defence, operating a much larger airforce and navy as well as an army of more than comparable size. As far as I can see, the armoured brigade would need no more than 500 professionals to maintain the equipment and training of reservists.

Finally, some of the problems are alleviated by the fact that the front line units are as streamlined as possible, while the more disparate equipment is used in 2. echolon units, e.g. my Rapid Deployment Force, which, in effect, is no more than a rag tag force of M 60's and leapard 1's with Marders without any support to be deployed as a stop gap force to counter enemy breakthroughs of the FLOT until other units can be redirected and brought to bear. The point is, these units are not used very much, not expected to travel far nor fight a protracted battle, wherefore maintenance and logistics are of lesser importance
 

Bozoo

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I'm sorry to sound repetitive, I realise that a big part of your motivation is to buy kit that you can model but I want to reiterate the point that Feanor and other have made.

Okay you've bought 108 M1s, I've never encountered a Tank regiment equipped with them but I have worked with a Challenger II regiment. I think you've a notion in your head that you can utilise this equipment with part timers and I don't really think that's accurate.

As well as the Tank crews each squadron will have a first line fitter section with typically a recovery variant and an APC type with first line electronics technicians, Gunfitters, Mechanics another dozen guys in all. Back at RHQ you'll have the supply chain, signals det, a regimental workshop (metal smiths, instrument technicians etc) and various others, Your regiment when fully manned will easily be 600 guys. A lot of those trades will have to be full time soldiers especially the maintenance guys at most you'll get away with 50% reservists and even they will probably have had to serve in the regulars at some stage.

So that’s two regiments 1200 personnel, For that many tanks you're also going to have second line maintenance, guys that repair the LRU's that the first line guys replace, going by how the British army works that’s going to be battalion sized and another 400 to 500 guys. Also I don't know how the Australians do it but British tanks go for fourth line overhaul every few years which is typically a mixture of civvies and military that will probably be a contract with the manufacturer. Incidentally if you ever pissed of the US and they cut off the spare parts your tanks wouldn’t last long.

What I'm saying is 108 tanks will take at least 1800 guys to operate, Your countries population is 100,000, its just not feasible.
The armoured squadron line up is:

24 M1 A1 Abrahms MBT
Mech INf. platoon with 6 M2 Bradleys
HQ platoon with 1 M 577 (M113 command vehicle), 2 Mercedes 300 GD minibus, 2 Motorcycle messangers, 2 M 551 Sheridan recce tanks
Support platoon with 2 Gepard AAA tank, 1 Leopard I ARV, 1 M 113 ambulance
Supply platoon with 6 M 548 tracked transport carrying supplies, POL, Ammo, one ow which carries tools and spare parts.

There are 4 such squadrons (although one with Leopards and one presently at cadre strength.

In addition the brigade consists of:

HQ squadron with 7 M 577, MP section w/2 Fox armored transports, close defence platoon, commanders platoon, recce, transport units and 3 helicopters

Artillery sqd with 8 M 109 AG3
Air defence sqd with 12 Gepards
Combat engineer sqd, with 2 Biber bridges, 3 Dachs and 1 Kieler
Transport sqd with 12 M 923 5t trucks and 12 trucks with Fuel bowsers
Medical support coy with 6 M113 ambulances and Medical point

Could you tell me something about what mix of ammo, POL and spare parts you would put into the M 548's to support the armoured squadrons as an independant fighting unit.

I see that I need to expand the squadron with a APC for the maintenance team. Would one M 113 be enough (I have a surplus of these). The maintenance team pr. squadron would be 1 ARV, 1 M 548 and 1 M 113, totalling 6 crew and 12 mechanics. Would that be enough? Should there be a separate maintenance team on the brigade level? There is a team on base, which also has Elephant tank transporters (8). Is this sufficient.

By the way, due to the feedback from you guys, the Midtguardian government has decided to relax it's strict immigration regime and supply opportunities for professionals with jobs, housing and tax incentives aiming at increasing the population by 20%. I'm sure there would be interesting openings for dedicated military professionals:D
 

Bozoo

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I was lurking in this thread and thought that the hypothetical country's defence policy sounded a little like Singapore's (but I did not want to be so presumptuous).

I do broadly agree with what Ozzy Blizzard says about Singapore and its relations with our neighbours and that some of it would be applicable to the hypothetical country.

May I just add that Singapore historically spends 4% - 5% of our GDP on defence. Since the 1970s, Singapore had announced that our defence spending will be limited to a max of 6% to avoid an arms race with Malaysia.

Broadly, current relations between Malaysia, Indonesia and Singapore would be described by all 3 governments as 'excellent'. However, historically, there are periods of tension or disagreements, where 'anti-Singapore' protests would take place (for a few months). During these periods of tension, there would be threats issued or some form of pressure applied on Singapore. However, these 'minor problems' are usually swept under the carpet, so to speak.

Singapore's improving defence capabilities is intended to benefit Singaporeans. Our conscription service period has been shortened from 2.5 years to 2 years. And our reserve cycle was also recently shortened from 13 years to 10 years.
Thanks for your input. I think Midtguardia in many aspects reflects some of the same defence problems that Singapore experience, but Singapore of coarse has a much larger population.

I could of coarse expand my populatoin, but creating housing, jobs and services for so many people is out of the question, som the Midtguardian defence system will have to be somewhat out of ordinary proportion, although, not as unfeasabel as some here would seem to suggest.

This discussion has, to a large extent, become a discussion on demographics, an aspect that I have only dwelved into in very limited degree so as to not be totally out of proportion with the civilian community. What I would like is to discuss whether or not the defence forces I actually do field would be able to hold their own in a real life battle and whether there are obvious deficiancies that can be dealt with.

I see you are from Singapore. I also see that you have used the M40A1 106 mm RCL. I have a FIBUA platoon of 12 jeep mounted 106 mm RCLs. Are these still in use? I know there is an upgrade availiable making the 106 mm a vialble weapon system on the modern battle field. Do you know anything about this?
 

Bozoo

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Feranor.

Mate i just wanted to make a few comments on your prior arguments.

I think what Bozoo meant by "Its Reality" is not that it works in the real word, but he has already made the investment in the hardware, and because no one is made of money, the purchases have been piecemeal. Thus there is a bit of a hodge podge of equipment. Thats reality, and thats the constraints we have to deal with.
Your quite right, Ozzy. Its the real currency limitations, and availiability issues that are the equivialant of the simulated budget restrictions. Just to give you an idea, I'm just taking delivery of 12 FAUN Z 912/21-155 expanded mobility trucks for the transport Bn, 5 MAN 4650 10t trucks with loading crane for the artillery Bn and 2 Unimog 1700 with front loaders for the supply BN (for supply dump use) as well as 2 Fenneck armoured recce vehicles for testing for use in the long range action group and divisional recce units. What I actually need is at least 60 Fauns and 20 MANs, but I can't afford more.

M1's are currently not availiable at all.
 
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