Russia helps China build new aircraft carrier

[AegisFC]

I think he's talking about the Kiev class.

Even that doesn't make much sense, 4 were made but are pretty much accounted for.
The Kiev itself is in China as part of a theme park.
The Minsk is also in China but near as I can tell it is a museum.
The Novorossiysk was broken up in 1997 in South Korea.
And we all know the drama that is the Admiral Gorshkov.

 

[kev 99]

Even that doesn't make much sense, 4 were made but are pretty much accounted for.
The Kiev itself is in China as part of a theme park.
The Minsk is also in China but near as I can tell it is a museum.
The Novorossiysk was broken up in 1997 in South Korea.
And we all know the drama that is the Admiral Gorshkov.

If you consider that his assertion may be based on the fact that the Chinese now own 3 ex Soviet carriers (including Varyag) and then mixing up Kiev with Kirov you might be able to see how it could of gone a little pear shaped.

Even if you discount the Varyag by substituting Kirov with Kiev he's only one out (2 out of 4 as opposed to 3 out of 4).

 

[Salty Dog]

I seriously doubt Russia would have transferred any nuclear powered vessels to China.

 

[Blitzo]

I seriously doubt Russia would have transferred any nuclear powered vessels to China.

Umm, no Russia hasn't. And probably never will. What made you think that? Oh, right the Kirov. kk, never mind then.

 

[Blitzo]

http://www.sinodefence.com/research/aircraft-carrier/China_Aircraft_Carrier_Ambition.pdf
That pdf article I found is pretty useful, and gave me quite a bit of knowledge about possible Chinese aircraft carrier designs and uses. A few of you may have already read it (like me, if you are a follower of china's quest for a carrier, but if you haven't, you should read it. It's pretty interesting.

 

[SkolZkiy]

Sorry guys my mistake KIEV not KIROV =)
In 1985 China bought old austalian carrier. Varyag also is in China.
http://www.lenta.ru/articles/2008/12/26/carrier/
this is that article. there is said about 4 carriers that chineese bought: Kiev, Varyag, Minsk and Melbourne

The Novorossiysk was broken up in 1997 in South Korea.

Novorossiysk went to Korea - but are you sure it is scrappled? THere is a quite big chance that even this ship is right now in China.

 

[Iam]

http://www.sinodefence.com/research/aircraft-carrier/China_Aircraft_Carrier_Ambition.pdf
That pdf article I found is pretty useful, and gave me quite a bit of knowledge about possible Chinese aircraft carrier designs and uses. A few of you may have already read it (like me, if you are a follower of china's quest for a carrier, but if you haven't, you should read it. It's pretty interesting.

Apart from why china would like to build and use an aircraft carrier will be any defence analyst thesis, that article has several discrepancy's,( adventurist journalism, can't find the right word ) apart from the below.

"What we do know, and the real benefit to China, is that the development and

modernisation skills that will flow from this will directly assist future Chinese carrier
construction. Contrariwise, India is paying between USD$900 to USD$1350 million to have
their former Soviet carrier modified in a Russian shipyard, and it is not likely to be​

operational until 201011."

India has been operating 2 aircraft carrier in past since long and thus the experience gained, it's lone aircraft carrier Virat is currently going a major refit, it's building it own carrier as we speak. So does china gain more knowledge by simply refitting a legacy aircraft carrier ? or does India gain more by building her own aircraft carrier ?

 

[Feanor]

Novorossiysk went to Korea - but are you sure it is scrappled? THere is a quite big chance that even this ship is right now in China.

I've heard rumors of the sort on Russian websites, but it's complete speculation. So when you say big chance, just keep in mind it's not all that big.

 

[Salty Dog]

Here's a website dedicated to the ex-Varyag:

VaryagWorld - Dedicated to covering the past, present and future of the Varyag CV

 

[SkolZkiy]

May be Feanor but I think that this is very possible according to low prices of this ex-ships - VERY LOW PRICES.

 

[Blitzo]

Apart from why china would like to build and use an aircraft carrier will be any defence analyst thesis, that article has several discrepancy's,( adventurist journalism, can't find the right word ) apart from the below.

"What we do know, and the real benefit to China, is that the development and

modernisation skills that will flow from this will directly assist future Chinese carrier
construction. Contrariwise, India is paying between USD$900 to USD$1350 million to have
their former Soviet carrier modified in a Russian shipyard, and it is not likely to be​

operational until 201011."

India has been operating 2 aircraft carrier in past since long and thus the experience gained, it's lone aircraft carrier Virat is currently going a major refit, it's building it own carrier as we speak. So does china gain more knowledge by simply refitting a legacy aircraft carrier ? or does India gain more by building her own aircraft carrier ?

Ah (why does everyone want to compare India to China?). Of course India has more experience currently in aircraft carrier operations, as well as currently building an aircraft carrier (albeit slowly, successfully? too early to tell I think). But as the analysis states, China has had a chance to study 4 aircraft carriers, one of which has formerly had a steam catapult (HMAS melbourne). The two kiev class aircraft carriers, with one class, the admiral gorshkov being re done to suit indian needs, and finally the varyag. out of all those the varyag is definetly the most important right now.
But it is also inevitable China will start to build her own aircraft carrier, as all military officials hint (google "chinese aircraft carrier news"). So really, currently India has more experience in Carrier operations and building them, and in the short term future too, but I am pretty confident that China will eventually be able to overtake and dominate (India, at least), most importantly in the use of nuclear powered and catapult carriers (search 085 project).
And finally, you say that China is refitting a "legacy carrier". True, probably for training purposes. But you also state India is making her own, now this aircraft carrier, if you wiki it is expected to have capabilites under the varyag anyway, in terms of aircraft, size, armnament, etc. This last paragraph is just saying that the way you talk (type?) suggests India's carrier currently being built is going to be better than the Varyag/Admiarl Kuznetsov. Which I find both amusing and suprising.
Sorry if my post was too long.

 

[Feanor]

It's not too long, it's just baseless.

Overall I see no reason to suggest that China will overtake India in carrier operations within the next decade. India is planning for 2 operational carriers. China has yet to being construction of their first one. China is working it's way up to carrier operations, and preparing the necessary groundwork. But realistically, they are still a long ways off from an operating CVBG. India is already there.

 

[tphuang]

It's not too long, it's just baseless.

Overall I see no reason to suggest that China will overtake India in carrier operations within the next decade. India is planning for 2 operational carriers. China has yet to being construction of their first one. China is working it's way up to carrier operations, and preparing the necessary groundwork. But realistically, they are still a long ways off from an operating CVBG. India is already there.

by the time India finally gets its IAC into service (who knows if Gorshkov will even get transferred), China will already have 2 operatioal carriers. Based on their current naval fighter program schedule, it's hard for this not to happen. A lot of this is on my blog.

India has experience operating a small, archaic carrier with no real escort fleets. That's different from operating a large, modern carrier with full blown escorts. At this moment, China already has all of the escort fleets ready and stationed in Sanya. 2 052C/2 054A/2 093/887. In many ways, it can theoretically practice long range operations with 071 (acting as some what of a expeditionary strike force).

India has been operating 2 aircraft carrier in past since long and thus the experience gained, it's lone aircraft carrier Virat is currently going a major refit, it's building it own carrier as we speak. So does china gain more knowledge by simply refitting a legacy aircraft carrier ? or does India gain more by building her own aircraft carrier ?

again, operating an old carrier with a limited number of STOVL plane off a ski-jump with no capable escort is different from operating a 60K tonne CATOBAR aircraft carrier with 30+ heavy naval fighter + fix winged AEW surrounded by modern escorts. They have thoroughtly studied multiple carriers, they are actually cutting their own steel, getting most of the components from their domestic suppliers and have far more capable shipyards.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

again, operating an old carrier with a limited number of STOVL plane off a ski-jump with no capable escort is different from operating a 60K tonne CATOBAR aircraft carrier with 30+ heavy naval fighter + fix winged AEW surrounded by modern escorts. They have thoroughtly studied multiple carriers, they are actually cutting their own steel, getting most of the components from their domestic suppliers and have far more capable shipyards.

So China might be better at building a carrier than India but they have a long way to go before they can operate it. The best thing China could do to promote their carrier 'program' would be to build a couple of basic helicopter carriers (LPH) and operate them at sea to develop some basic flight deck management experience. Since they aren't doing this I doubt their carrier 'program' is a serious one.

 

[Feanor]

by the time India finally gets its IAC into service (who knows if Gorshkov will even get transferred), China will already have 2 operatioal carriers. Based on their current naval fighter program schedule, it's hard for this not to happen. A lot of this is on my blog.

Instead of just deferring us to your blog, would you mind actually substantiating on this claim? China has yet to begin construction of a carrier as far as I know. And there is little room to doubt that the Gorshkov will be transferred. The deal is too large, and both sides are too interested in it coming through.

again, operating an old carrier with a limited number of STOVL plane off a ski-jump with no capable escort is different from operating a 60K tonne CATOBAR aircraft carrier with 30+ heavy naval fighter + fix winged AEW surrounded by modern escorts.

What's your point here? China has no experience of operating a carrier whatsoever. You can call the Indian experience as too little, but in that case China with NO experience looks all the farther off.

 

[funtz]

by the time India finally gets its IAC into service (who knows if Gorshkov will even get transferred), China will already have 2 operational carriers. Based on their current naval fighter program schedule, it's hard for this not to happen. A lot of this is on my blog.

From no carrier to 2 by 2020?

IAC might be floating around but it will take time to get it operational.

IN had to go to USN for arrested recovery training on a aircraft carrier, the concept of an aircraft carrier seems to be more about a aircraft landing on a ship moving in all directions, more than the carrier ship.

The naval fighters(Mig-29Ks) will be here before the IAC.

India has experience operating a small, archaic carrier with no real escort fleets. That's different from operating a large, modern carrier with full blown escorts. At this moment, China already has all of the escort fleets ready and stationed in Sanya. 2 052C/2 054A/2 093/887. In many ways, it can theoretically practice long range operations with 071 (acting as some what of a expeditionary strike force).

I have not seen the 2 052C/2 054A/2 093/887 you mention operate in a aircraft carrier strike group, they might have to fit in once the aircraft carrier comes along, and the Indian aircraft carrier program is not an exclusive one, many programs will become operational along with the carrier.

Obviously its different and calling the ships in IN as no real escorts is a very cocky thing, especially in the region IN operates in.(No soviet fleet to sink).

again, operating an old carrier with a limited number of STOVL plane off a ski-jump with no capable escort is different from operating a 60K tonne CATOBAR aircraft carrier with 30+ heavy naval fighter + fix winged AEW surrounded by modern escorts. They have thoroughly studied multiple carriers, they are actually cutting their own steel, getting most of the components from their domestic suppliers and have far more capable shipyards.

Well this mythical 60K tonne CATOBAR aircraft carrier with 30+ heavy naval fighter + fix winged AEW that you mention is not going to serve with the IN in near future.

IN will operate a 37K STOBAR aircraft carrier with 12+4 medium air defence fighters and helicopters (30 aircrafts in total). The STO part as you mention is not new, and for BAR part IN is utilizing many resources from around the world.

How has PLA-N thoroughly studied multiple carriers and selected a design without operating one in its entire history, (cutting open ships seems like a different thing from operating them).

PLA-N should ask the French about the experience they had with a the current carrier, it will be immensely helpful. As its seems to me to be the only operational medium CATOBAR carrier with a modern fighter planes squadron, and AEW planes out side of the USN super carriers,

They had to get the CAT tech. from USA (USN Type C13 catapult) along with the AEW planes (E-2C Hawkeye) which would have saved them a lot of time and money. Even after installation resources from US were utilized
http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=3766

Utilizing firms from other nations which have a lot of experience designing the type of ships IN is looking for is a good thing and not a disadvantage, sourcing parts from other nations is required, delays will happen if at any stage a supplier is unable to meet a deadline, however the effect on the program can only be known after the program is over, not before.

Comparison of IN and PLA-Ns aircraft carrier programs is an academic exercise(if PLA-N is indeed going for CATOBAR), both have different doctrines and both have different areas of operation.

 

[Iam]

by the time India finally gets its IAC into service (who knows if Gorshkov will even get transferred), China will already have 2 operatioal carriers. Based on their current naval fighter program schedule, it's hard for this not to happen. A lot of this is on my blog.

India has experience operating a small, archaic carrier with no real escort fleets. That's different from operating a large, modern carrier with full blown escorts. At this moment, China already has all of the escort fleets ready and stationed in Sanya. 2 052C/2 054A/2 093/887. In many ways, it can theoretically practice long range operations with 071 (acting as some what of a expeditionary strike force).


again, operating an old carrier with a limited number of STOVL plane off a ski-jump with no capable escort is different from operating a 60K tonne CATOBAR aircraft carrier with 30+ heavy naval fighter + fix winged AEW surrounded by modern escorts. They have thoroughtly studied multiple carriers, they are actually cutting their own steel, getting most of the components from their domestic suppliers and have far more capable shipyards.

Sorry to say, but your blog is something for you to express your own views and stick and paste articles that you concur.

2 052C/2 054A/2 093/887, please provide any evidence that is non blog related.

Building an aircraft carrier is quite different to operating one. China may have the steel and the expertise (thoroughtly studied multiple carriers, as you call it), but the real one is an operational one.

 

[aaaditya]

another area where india has benefitted is from its frequent interaction with us carrier task forces,the uk and french carrier task forces,as a part of the excercise malabar these have given indian navy a considerable knowledge of carrier based operations.

 

[Iam]

another area where india has benefitted is from its frequent interaction with us carrier task forces,the uk and french carrier task forces,as a part of the excercise malabar these have given indian navy a considerable knowledge of carrier based operations.

Hello Aaaditya, do you have any links as to why the Indian Navy chose that IAC design. I believe an Italian company was assigned this task, supposing that the Soviet/Russian designs would have been readily available to India.?

 

[tphuang]

So China might be better at building a carrier than India but they have a long way to go before they can operate it. The best thing China could do to promote their carrier 'program' would be to build a couple of basic helicopter carriers (LPH) and operate them at sea to develop some basic flight deck management experience. Since they aren't doing this I doubt their carrier 'program' is a serious one.

Or they can build both, which is what they will do. Richard Fisher mentioned a year ago while 071 was still ongoing that they were also going to build helo carrier.

Instead of just deferring us to your blog, would you mind actually substantiating on this claim? China has yet to begin construction of a carrier as far as I know. And there is little room to doubt that the Gorshkov will be transferred. The deal is too large, and both sides are too interested in it coming through.

What's your point here? China has no experience of operating a carrier whatsoever. You can call the Indian experience as too little, but in that case China with NO experience looks all the farther off.

let's see now, they bought 4 set of arresting hook from the Russians. They ordered switch boards for carrier. The steel has apparently being delivered by Baosteel (we will see about that). The new JiangNan shipyard at Changxin Location has the necessary docks for carrier construction. And one of the model pictures we saw from that yard showed a carrier.
http://www.sinodefence.com/research/new-facility-carrier-building/default.asp
Most of us expect to see pictures coming out from here soon.

They started a school for naval aviation recently and looking forward to the Ukrainians to help them train. They are looking to buy su-33 from the Russians right now to begin training. They also got T-10K from Ukraine. You can see Ukraine's help here.
http://www.upiasia.com/Security/2008/12/05/ukraine_to_help_train_chinas_navy_pilots/4214/

They have a domestic naval flanker program going that looks to be ready by 2015. They had a deal for ka-31 from Russians a whle ago that later got delayed. They have a Y-7 AEW program going at about the same time. That's how we know they are definitely going for a full scale CATOBAR carrier. There was an article a few months ago that they were working on EMAL catapult.

Sorry to say, but your blog is something for you to express your own views and stick and paste articles that you concur.

2 052C/2 054A/2 093/887, please provide any evidence that is non blog related.

Building an aircraft carrier is quite different to operating one. China may have the steel and the expertise (thoroughtly studied multiple carriers, as you call it), but the real one is an operational one.

my blog is very heavily read.
As for 2 052C/2 054A/2 093/887, just go see some of the pictures on CDF. Check for any of the threads, you will see these ships next to each other in Sanya base.
Everyone knows its there. It's common knowledge who bothers to follow PLAN.
The crown jewel of PLAN is all stationed there with 2 052B, 2 052C, 2 054A, 093s/094s, 887, 071. In fact, they are sending 1 052B, 1 052C and 887 from this sea base to Somalia right now.

As I said, China may not have any operational experience and India does. However, when it comes to operating a full blown CVBG as some here have argued, neither have any experience doing it.