Singaporean Leopard 2A4s debut in Australia

[Waylander]

Yes, stuff like Baracuda seems to be some nice piece of equipment.

In Germany we usually always have three camo nets for every tank (turret, hull and gun) as standard loadout.

Sure out tanks also got muddy, dirty and dusty very quick but if the weather was humid at least the upper part remained relatively clean for some time.

From photos of the US Army in Germany I got the feeling that they don't use camo nets and vegetation pinned onto the track very often while we tend to make driving bushes out of our vehicles.

Have I just got a wrong picture of the real situation or is it right that this kind of preparing a tank is less common with the US Army.

And to get back on topic how about the Guys over there in Singapore and Malaysia?

Are they using vegetation to cover their vehicles? With all this tropical landscape around it should work very in breaking up the silouette of vehicles.

 

[eckherl]

Yes, stuff like Baracuda seems to be some nice piece of equipment.

In Germany we usually always have three camo nets for every tank (turret, hull and gun) as standard loadout.

Sure out tanks also got muddy, dirty and dusty very quick but if the weather was humid at least the upper part remained relatively clean for some time.

From photos of the US Army in Germany I got the feeling that they don't use camo nets and vegetation pinned onto the track very often while we tend to make driving bushes out of our vehicles.

Have I just got a wrong picture of the real situation or is it right that this kind of preparing a tank is less common with the US Army.

And to get back on topic how about the Guys over there in Singapore and Malaysia?

Are they using vegetation to cover their vehicles? With all this tropical landscape around it should work very in breaking up the silouette of vehicles.

No, your picture is right, the majority of U.S tank units do not fret with camo nets, this type of practice is done by individual tanks, platoons or tank companies, most tankers hated erecting camo nets over their tanks to hide tank positions due to the time that it takes, also as you already know, camo nets like to get caught on just about everything while you are positioning it. I used foilage such as old rice paddy stalks in ROK during fall and winter months, and tree branches during spring and summer for camo purposes, please keep in mind Waylander that I am a hard core tanker and my goal was always to train to win and keep my tank platoon alive, they appreciated it during GW2, everyone came home. The U.S Army doesn`t frown on individual tank crews that go out of their way to camo up their vehicles, just as long that they do not go overboard.

But yes, it would be interesting on what Singapore and Malaysia does out in the field for camo purposes for tactical vehicles. Have you heard anything for a possible upgrade plans for that batch of Leos or at the current moment do they seem content with what they have.

 

[Red]

Have you heard anything for a possible upgrade plans for that batch of Leos or at the current moment do they seem content with what they have.

It seems that talks are currently underway between Singapore and Germany on upgrades. But the latter will take some time as Singapore has her own unique requirements.

Im not so sure which German company/companies is/are involved as well.

I suppose there will be other issues(rights, etc) as well since Singapore Tech Engineering is almost certain to do the upgrades here in Singapore.

 

[Chino]

Until some real SAF tankees show up (I was a rifleman), here's what I have seen in pics and training...

On the move, I have never so far seen any kind of nets applied as camo, while it is SOP for all SAF vehicles to erect camo nets when deployed/stationary.

Foliage seems to be the preferred camouflage mode in Singapore. The Bionix especially have these rings on the sides of the hull whereby you can run a rope through in criss cross pattern that you can afterwards stuff branches into.

 

[Waylander]

No, your picture is right, the majority of U.S tank units do not fret with camo nets, this type of practice is done by individual tanks, platoons or tank companies, most tankers hated erecting camo nets over their tanks to hide tank positions due to the time that it takes, also as you already know, camo nets like to get caught on just about everything while you are positioning it. I used foilage such as old rice paddy stalks in ROK during fall and winter months, and tree branches during spring and summer for camo purposes, please keep in mind Waylander that I am a hard core tanker and my goal was always to train to win and keep my tank platoon alive, they appreciated it during GW2, everyone came home. The U.S Army doesn`t frown on individual tank crews that go out of their way to camo up their vehicles, just as long that they do not go overboard.

But yes, it would be interesting on what Singapore and Malaysia does out in the field for camo purposes for tactical vehicles. Have you heard anything for a possible upgrade plans for that batch of Leos or at the current moment do they seem content with what they have.

That's the kind of platoon commander one wants to have.

As or upgrades.
So far I only know of Singapore putting it's own battlefield management system into the Leos.

Maybe Singapore waits for the urban combat kits being deployed with the Bundeswehr to see them during regular operations.
Some of the stuff could be interesting for Singapore.

 

[Red]

Maybe Singapore waits for the urban combat kits being deployed with the Bundeswehr to see them during regular operations.
Some of the stuff could be interesting for Singapore.

Are you talking about Leo PSO?
Yes, I believe Singapore armour accords new armour modules for the Leos a high priority. I have no idea what they are currently looking at though.

 

[Waylander]

Jup, it looks like the BW is planning to implement at least parts of the proposed PSO package.
Rheinmetall and KMW should be able to put everything onto a Leopard II a customer wants.

It is always a question of need, money and if one wants to be the first one to deploy some of the new stuff.

 

[OPSSG]

Are you talking about Leo PSO?

1. I think that Leopard 2A4 Evolution IBD (a pix is enclosed below) is a more likely potential upgrade path, though I don't have any new information on possible upgrades.

1.1 The Leopard 2A4 Evolution IBD was developed as add-on armour. The Leopard 2A4 Evolution weighs 60 tons (compared to 56.6 tons before the upgrade). IHMO, IBD Deisenroth (IBD) is a traditional leader in passive armour development and also a leader in the newly developing field of active defence with the AMAP-ADS system.

Interview with CEO of IBD
MILTECH: ...could you provide some examples of particularly significant contracts, as a demonstration of what you can do?

Deisenroth: We have to make a distinction between conventional armour, i.e. passive armour development, and the new active defence system. As regards the former, we are quite proud that our developments are produced in very large series.

We are or have been involved in some of the biggest AFV programmes... for instance the STRYKER family... Also we are very proud of our involvement in... the CV-90 IFV family which we have equipped with advanced armour solutions.


MILTECH: What technology you feel is moving faster, and promises the best results in the near future?

Deisenroth: We are not involved in reactive armour, and thus I could not comment on that. As regards passive armour solutions, progress is slow now... The required development time for advanced materials, nano-technologies and other such concepts keeps growing. Everything nowadays takes much more time, much larger investment... Yet these efforts are fully justified, because the output is already extremely encouraging.

I’m confident that in the passive armour sector a technological breakthrough will be achieved within the next few years. This will bring us very much forward. As regards active defence, the prospects of potential outstanding performance against a wide range of threats are currently very promising.

What we experience in the development of active defence systems is that providing the performance of the system is basically the easiest and smallest portion of the total effort...

2. IBD have also introduced the AMAP-MPS (MultiPurpose Seat concept), that will support the overall survivability concept when considering threats like mines and/or IED´s.

2.1 AMAP-MPS is essentially a suspended crew seat, similar in concept to Plasan Sasa's Suspended Mine Blast Resistant Seat. AMAP-MPS is now qualified for service and has been chosen, by Canada for urgent applications in vehicles.

3. ST Kinetics (STK) displayed the Bronco All Terrain Tracked Carrier with the AMAP-ADS active protection system at EUROSATORY 2008 (click on link for IBD news). You can also see a video of the Bronco on the STK website, if you are interested.

3.1 The AMAP-ADS system protects against varied of weapon systems. Weighing about 400 kg, the system incorporates a modular design of multiple defensive elements, integrating the energetic material, laser sensors and activation systems in capsuled modules, installed around the vehicle providing 360° protection against RPGs and other shaped charge threats – more importantly, it provides protection from attacks fired from a very close distance - which means it is good for urban warfare.

...Company tests demonstrated that the active element of its Advanced Modular Armour Protection (AMAP) product range, originally known as AMAP-ADS (active defence system)... could also be effective against some forms of EFP attack, as well as conventional shaped-charge (SC) rocket and kinetic-energy (KE) penetrator attack.

IBD started generic research into hard-kill defensive aid systems in 2001 and first carried out... test of its ADS solution on a tracked vehicle in 2005. Since 2007, development and production has been transferred to subsidiary company, ADS GmbH, set up in 2006, in which Rheinmetall has... a 25 % holding...

3.2 There are online rumors (not verified) that suggest that AMAP-ADS system is superior to other Active Protection Systems like the Trophy (selected to equip the Israeli Merkava Mk4) and Iron Fist systems. I am also not sure about its capabilities compared to the Raytheon Quick Kill (still under development), which uses radar. However, I do not expect to find any open source materials to enable us to compare the merits of these systems.

3.3 This AMAP-ADS system is a technology that could be applied for other Singapore amoured vehicles like the Leopard 2A4.

What do you think?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

All the various APS have their ups and downs. While AMAP-ADS looks good on paper there are a few major operational problems with it. Certainly Rafael's 3rd Generation Trophy Light and IMI's Iron Fist being offered to the ASLAV DAS demonstration would have a range of advantages over that of AMAP-ADS.

Singapore also has their Israeli connections for up-protecting the Leopard 2. Rafael have allready developed an add on armour kit for the 2A4 for another customer.

 

[OPSSG]

While AMAP-ADS looks good on paper there are a few major operational problems with it. Certainly Rafael's 3rd Generation Trophy Light and IMI's Iron Fist being offered to the ASLAV DAS demonstration would have a range of advantages over that of AMAP-ADS.

Singapore also has their Israeli connections for up-protecting the Leopard 2. Rafael have allready developed an add on armour kit for the 2A4 for another customer.

Dear Abraham,

Many, many thanks for your post. They are always insightful. With your industry knowledge -- you enable "military nuts" like me, to better understand the latest trends.

OPSSG

 

[Waylander]

May I ask what this add on armour kit consists of.
I never heard of the Israelis having developed such a thing.

I would really appreciate to get some more infos and maybe some pics.

And maybe you could reveal the customer...

 

[eckherl]

May I ask what this add on armour kit consists of.
I never heard of the Israelis having developed such a thing.

I would really appreciate to get some more infos and maybe some pics.

And maybe you could reveal the customer...

There is no need for Israel to get involved in upgrading LEO 2 armor, Germany is more than capable of offering a good package and at a bargain cost. Isreal has their hands full helping out former Eastern Block countries with their T series armor package upgrades at the current times. Is this not also in the purchase agreement with Germany that all major armor upgrades will go to them.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

There is no need for Israel to get involved in upgrading LEO 2 armor, Germany is more than capable of offering a good package and at a bargain cost. Isreal has their hands full helping out former Eastern Block countries with their T series armor package upgrades at the current times. Is this not also in the purchase agreement with Germany that all major armor upgrades will go to them.

They already have and actually most of the Israeli add on armour work isn’t for old Soviet gear but for the US Army (MRAP, M1A1, M2/M3, LTVP7) and British Army (FV 432, Warrior). Plus of course the various M113 up-armoured offers.

As to purchase agreements it depends on the deal. Mostly the Germans have end user control, in who you can on-sell the vehicles too. But the Germans are not the only suppliers of surplus Leopard 2s. For example if you buy second hand Leopard 2s from the Netherlands they have sovereign control over these vehicles.

As to the Rafael Leopard 2 upgrade its real and the customer is of course kept secret unless they want to reveal it. I don’t have a picture at hand but I think it might have been published somewhere? Anyway its in the Rafael ASPRO .ppt if you ever attend a trade conference.

 

[Waylander]

Thanks for revealing what is possible!

You infected me and I am going to search for more.

As far as I know some of the contracts for german Leopard A4s include that major upgrades (Which would include armor upgrades) are done by German companies.
But I am not sure about which contract includes this and which not.

Remember that by getting rid of our surplus Leos Germany doesn't only wants to reduce storage costs but also wants to get some new supply and upgrade contracts for KMW, Rheinmetall, etc.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

The Germans aren't the only suppliers of surplus Leopard 2s out there. The shortlist for Land 907, the new Australian tank, was between the M1A1 AIM and the Swiss Panzer 87 WE (Leopard 2) which while deriving from the same KWS upgrade project is a very different beast to the Leopard 2A5. The Pz 87 WE includes Swiss Ti alloy add on armour in a very different configuration to KMW's 2A5 armour.

Austria, Finland, Greece, Poland, Singapore, Spain, Sweden and Turkey all operate unpgraded Leopard 2A4s. Chile and Canada operate Leopard 2A4s with domestic upgrade standards to something different to the 2A5/A6.

 

[swerve]

Australia, Finland, Greece, Poland, Singapore, Spain, Sweden and Turkey all operate unpgraded Leopard 2A4s. Chile and Canada operate Leopard 2A4s with domestic upgrade standards to something different to the 2A5/A6.

Austria, surely. One of those mind & fingers not quite in harmony moments.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Austria, surely. One of those mind & fingers not quite in harmony moments.

Gotta love the online typo nazis.

Admin: Only because he beat me to it.

 

[riksavage]

The pendulum continues to swing!

The Russians are now marketting a RPG-30 launcher, which has a double barrelled configuration. One barrel holds a decoy warhead, which is fired a split second before the main-charge to mitigate the threat posed by Active Protection Systems (APS), the second rocket hosts a tandem anti-tank shaped charge warhead designed to defeat the latest generation reactive armour and up to 600mm of rolled homogenous armour.

Interesting to hear whether western nations get the chance to test it against any new reactive armour / APS upgrade packages now on offer.

 

[OPSSG]

Are Leopard tanks useful for urban operations?

1. The SAF has the following types of vehicles:
(i) Leopard 2A4 tanks;
(ii) M728 armoured combat engineer vehicle (No. 1 pix below)
(iii) Terrex AV-81 infantry troop carriers - mechanised infantry Bns (No. 2 pix below)
(iv) M113 Utras with the Rafael Overhead Weapon System (OWS-25) (No. 3 pix below)

2. Are M113 Utras with the remote weapon stations - good for urban ops? Do we need higher elevation weapons like the BMPT?

3. As riksavage said in the post on the RPG-30: RPGs continue to evolve to defeat APS systems. To what extend can we mitigate with a proper balance of forces (not just via improvements to APS systems)?

What do you think?

 

[OPSSG]

1. The SAF is able to conduct a fast paced armoured thrust

Each of Singapore's combined arms divisions include Leopard 2A4 MBTs, AMX-13SM1 light tanks and amoured infantry (carried in either Bionix II or M113 Ultras).

These armoured elements are supported by the Super Rapid 120MM Mortar mounted on a Bronco, the 155mm/39 calibre Primus SPH, artillery hunting radar, Apache helicopters and UAVs.

2. The SAF is also able to shape the battlefield with overwhelming artillery support

Beyond numbers, SAF's artillery has the ability to direct precision fire (from artillery and the air force) and also the ability to gather intelligence (via UAVs and other ground based intelligence sensors) to enable precision stand-off & close-in fire (see the cool animation ) in an integrated strike operation.

From the cool animation --- Wouldn't you agree that the SAF has good precision fire technology?

3. Clearly, the SAF is concerned about urban operations having developed a "round corner firing SAR 21". The SAF is also learning from the US and has set up an Urban Training Facility (with video play-back to enhance learning):

2007 Vol. 33 No. 4:
... troops find themselves in close proximity to the adversary for protracted engagements...

Adding fuel to fire, troops operating in an urban environment will find themselves inundated by tools. They can expect traditional military equipment and capabilities ranging from organic artillery support and small calibre mortars, to armoured and close air support. They will also have access to assets requisitioned from the "rubble" of the urban battlefield...

In addition, the remaining inhabitants of a city can be counted upon to add a slippery complexity to the operational environment as they renege on alliances, build new ones, betray, supplicate, deceive, trust and seek protection...

At this point our discussion... [W]hat [does] it takes to achieve dominance on the unpredictable urban environment?

What do you think?