Will latest F-35 problems push Norway towards a European solution?
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Sorry, irtusk, my bad!pay attention to the edit times
anyways, thanks for the clarification rjmaz1
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Israel looks to be the first export customer...
Notice of potential sale: Israel - F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft
Notice of potential sale: Israel - F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft
Here's an interesting article from defenseindustrydaily. I don't know if it's been posted here before or not (sorry didn't read through the 58 pages), just curious on what you guys think. Are the A2A capabilities of the F-35 really in question? And of course there is a problem. There is nothing to compare it to. Comparing it to contemporary 4th gen. aircraft is a waste of time, it's obviously superior, but comparing it to other 5th gens is impossible, the only other one is the Raptor which is a mainly air superiority platform (where as the JSF is a strike-fighter).
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/The-F-35s-Air-to-Air-Capability-Controversy-05089/#more-5089
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/The-F-35s-Air-to-Air-Capability-Controversy-05089/#more-5089
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Well, its operational top speed is M1.6, similar to other high end fighters; agility compares to F-16/F-18 - and IMV heavy investments in supermaneuverability is in the "dimishing returns" category with the proliferation of HOBS/HMCS. It also have a massive internal fuel fraction for range and tactical maneuvering.
The most important criteria IMV is to be absolutely on top of the information battle - which you need to win in both WVR and BVR. It has what it needs to win in BVR: stealth, superior long range sensors (large fighter AESA, IRST) netcentrics. BVR is key and king, as it is really the only way to achieve favourable exchange ratios for any fighter today. In WVR the stealth comes to use as it will allow for tactical maneuvering for advantage prior to engaging; HOBS/HMCS makes WVR bloody murder for any jet regardless of T/W and wingloading.
Further on situational awareness: VLO is not the only thing that cannot be retrofitted to 4th gens; e.g. the 800mm AESA), just as the DAS cannot be retrofitted: it has to be thought of in the design phase. And the DAS not an inconsequential system. It gives the F-35 awesome situational awareness in WVR, detecting and keeping track of friend and foe, which translate into a superior OODA loop.
Gripen/EF/F-18/Rafale will never have such a system - the airframes were never designed to incorporate such, just as they were never designed to be VLO.
These are the parameters that kills the enemy in WVR and waaay overrides the misleading T/W and wingloading numbers out there.
The most important criteria IMV is to be absolutely on top of the information battle - which you need to win in both WVR and BVR. It has what it needs to win in BVR: stealth, superior long range sensors (large fighter AESA, IRST) netcentrics. BVR is key and king, as it is really the only way to achieve favourable exchange ratios for any fighter today. In WVR the stealth comes to use as it will allow for tactical maneuvering for advantage prior to engaging; HOBS/HMCS makes WVR bloody murder for any jet regardless of T/W and wingloading.
Further on situational awareness: VLO is not the only thing that cannot be retrofitted to 4th gens; e.g. the 800mm AESA), just as the DAS cannot be retrofitted: it has to be thought of in the design phase. And the DAS not an inconsequential system. It gives the F-35 awesome situational awareness in WVR, detecting and keeping track of friend and foe, which translate into a superior OODA loop.
Gripen/EF/F-18/Rafale will never have such a system - the airframes were never designed to incorporate such, just as they were never designed to be VLO.
These are the parameters that kills the enemy in WVR and waaay overrides the misleading T/W and wingloading numbers out there.
An interesting review, buuuut..... it confirms nothing more then 5th gen.>4th gen. which I think we all know. I guess my question really was, how much has been invested in it's ability to defeat other 5th gen. platforms in the air. How capable is it of detecting other VLO platforms? How manouverable is it compared to say 3D TVC which is going to be a standard feature (allegedly) on Su-35BMs which aren't even 5th gen.? Other then that, I guess I don't really have a very good understanding of what other components are critical in A2A. There is also the opinion out there that it's VLO is inferior to the F-22. Is that so, and if so, by how much? And would systems that are designed to detect the F-22 and disputably can or can't do it, then have a much easier time detecting the F-35?
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Ability to defeat other 5th gens? F-35 will have IOC 2013 and deployment of large numbers early on.
As opposed to "other" 5th gens, the F-35 will feature multigenerational VLO, multigenerational AESA, it will be the only jet with truly integrated mission systems (the other are really federated). It will also have some unique systems like DAS. On top of that, it will be built in incredible numbers, i.e. cheap.
Do you think PAK-FA and the other latecomers will feature any of this? I doubt it. Seriously.
TVC. It's an "diminishing returns", supermaneuverability item. In the face of HOBS, agile and fast IRIS-T/ASRAAM/AIM-9X with a near BVR NEZ, combined with HMCS, a jet featuring TVC gets shot down just as easily as a jet that doesn't. What matters is who sees who first and who can react to it first.
The F-22 uses TVC for efficient maneuvering at extreme altitudes, not for doing "cobras".
As opposed to "other" 5th gens, the F-35 will feature multigenerational VLO, multigenerational AESA, it will be the only jet with truly integrated mission systems (the other are really federated). It will also have some unique systems like DAS. On top of that, it will be built in incredible numbers, i.e. cheap.
Do you think PAK-FA and the other latecomers will feature any of this? I doubt it. Seriously.
TVC. It's an "diminishing returns", supermaneuverability item. In the face of HOBS, agile and fast IRIS-T/ASRAAM/AIM-9X with a near BVR NEZ, combined with HMCS, a jet featuring TVC gets shot down just as easily as a jet that doesn't. What matters is who sees who first and who can react to it first.
The F-22 uses TVC for efficient maneuvering at extreme altitudes, not for doing "cobras".
This must mean that Israel gets full acces to the software as I see it or am I wrong?
link
Supposedly to incorporate their own weapons, and possible the third temple? Israeli stealth nuclear first strike would make for an interesting scenario. Not so interesting for Israels "enemies" though.
Why are none of the JSF partner nations getting that same access to HW/SW? Will this affect their decision whether to buy JSF or not or is this not an issue for them?
Perhaps we need to wait some days for their local media to grok this ...
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Grand Danois
Entertainer
Israel will *not* get unique access to source code.
Israel will probably only be able to do some weapons and avionics integration and certification through interfaces.
Ok, I see, and the JSF partner nations have the same option?
Grand Danois
Entertainer
At least the UK would have had to OK the deal with Israel. And they probably also have that option. As a rule of thumb the partners have more access/options than export customers.
they must do after the thrashing out of deal in 2006 over sovereignty issues
Yes, the original prototypes have engaged in air combat exercises, but they are shells of the preproduction aircraft coming off the assembly line today. The preproduction aircraft are going through flight testing today, with another year or two of testing forthcoming. Software codes are still being written.
Unfortunately, too many expect this testing to be done overnight, as well as the software. They want a fighter fly off immediately, if not already. None of these fighter comparisons can be fully answered, as these flights have yet to be done.
The testing is in process, the preproduction aircraft are being built, and there are no signs of any current or future difficulties. The design is set, and there are high expectations with this aircraft. Everyone keeps asking whether this aircraft will be a dud, while at the same time there has been nothing reported to say it will be a dud.
In contrast, none of the developing nations involved see a dud either. All of the developing nations have high expectations, and rightly so, as they have spent so much designing the aircraft. So far, the program has been a success, with no failures in any system expected. There were a few problems with the F-35B weight, which was corrected with a few compromises during the design process for preproduction aircraft.
I see no reason why the Lightning II program won't deliver the best. Much has been discussed with the price of the aircraft, and while some price increases have been noted, overall the price is as stable as any other aircraft being produced.
Unfortunately, too many expect this testing to be done overnight, as well as the software. They want a fighter fly off immediately, if not already. None of these fighter comparisons can be fully answered, as these flights have yet to be done.
The testing is in process, the preproduction aircraft are being built, and there are no signs of any current or future difficulties. The design is set, and there are high expectations with this aircraft. Everyone keeps asking whether this aircraft will be a dud, while at the same time there has been nothing reported to say it will be a dud.
In contrast, none of the developing nations involved see a dud either. All of the developing nations have high expectations, and rightly so, as they have spent so much designing the aircraft. So far, the program has been a success, with no failures in any system expected. There were a few problems with the F-35B weight, which was corrected with a few compromises during the design process for preproduction aircraft.
I see no reason why the Lightning II program won't deliver the best. Much has been discussed with the price of the aircraft, and while some price increases have been noted, overall the price is as stable as any other aircraft being produced.
UK as the primary Tier 1 has a significant (VETO) say in this.
Israel also does not automatically get access to other discretionary capability that the other build partners have.
So it's advantage comes in avionics and the system it's part of?
I think that it's a matter of wait and see. I'm asking for your opinion because I'm interested in what you think, but I'd rather reserve my own conclusion until we see more. And the PAK-FA is not really a late comer. If it goes ahead as planned, it will be the third 5th gen. aircraft in the world. Given that 5th gen. is expected to stay in service until 2050, late comers will enter service around 2030.
Cobras don't necessarily requite TVC. But so you think that TVC-assisted manouvering combined with modern ECM won't make it harder to hit an aircraft? I mean if both sides are stealth, and thus detection ranges are short for both.....
Grand Danois
Entertainer
I'll do a complete reply when I'm more up to it... a bit lazy/tired right now.So it's advantage comes in avionics and the system it's part of?
I think that it's a matter of wait and see. I'm asking for your opinion because I'm interested in what you think, but I'd rather reserve my own conclusion until we see more. And the PAK-FA is not really a late comer. If it goes ahead as planned, it will be the third 5th gen. aircraft in the world. Given that 5th gen. is expected to stay in service until 2050, late comers will enter service around 2030.
Cobras don't necessarily requite TVC. But so you think that TVC-assisted manouvering combined with modern ECM won't make it harder to hit an aircraft? I mean if both sides are stealth, and thus detection ranges are short for both.....
But wrt your last paragraph, yes I know the Cobra doesn't require TVC - it was a metaphor. I was just highlighting that you're not gonna outmaneuver a M3-4+/60g/HOBS/IIR (and multisensor) missile, cued by HMCS/DAS, which will act as a fully integrated defensive/offensive system. On top of this the F-35 will also have the EOTS.
If you, say, compare this to the avionics of the PAK-FA which are supposedly going to be migrated from the SU-35 (at best "4.5 gen" federated), and that the jet has to have the provision for the arrays and computational power, then I say that it does not seem to be in the cards for the PAK-FA.
Which makes me conclude that F-16/F-18 maneuverability is more than adequate and supermaneuverability and TVC is a waste of money, except for post-stall maneuvering like landing on very short runways and at high altitude maneuvering (which is why a maritimised Typhoon would probably feature TVC; to control sink rate and diminish landing speed, and for maneuvering at very high altitude were control surfaces have less authority - this is why the F-22A has TVC).
AvWeek blog on EO-DAS.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiNMio9zN2Q"]NG EO-DAS promo video.[/ame]
Personally I think the over-the-shoulder shots in the video is a bit over the top, but it does drive home the point.
LO later.
I'd like to point out that a delta wing aircraft like Typhoon already has superb high speed -high altitude manouvering. though their low speed handling are worse then a conventional plane like F-22.
Must say i'm incredibly impressed with DAS!
What problems could there be to mount those sensors on a, say Typhoon ?
Must say i'm incredibly impressed with DAS!
What problems could there be to mount those sensors on a, say Typhoon ?
So you think nothing of the sort is in the works for the PAK-FA? Keep in mind that the Su-35BM has not even yet been decided on in terms of avionics. And it's only the test-bed for 5th gen. avionics, not necessarily the final form. Finally given then time between now and when the PAK-FA is scheduled for production, means that many changes are likely to come to it. The only thing really tested next year will be the airframe and engines. And even those are likely to be modified. I would be (I try to avoid it admittedly) more conservative in terms of trying to predict the future.
EDIT: By the way, this article mentions a new avionics complex for the Su-35BM. It only mentions it in passing towards the end, but it would be interesting to see more.
http://arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=60828&cid=24
Anyways, thanks for your reply and sorry to derail this. One final comment, the PAK-FA isn't the only competitor. I mentioned it because I know quiet a bit about it, but isn't the Gripen NG a 5th gen. platform? And of course we have the Chinese J-XX.
EDIT: By the way, this article mentions a new avionics complex for the Su-35BM. It only mentions it in passing towards the end, but it would be interesting to see more.
http://arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=60828&cid=24
Anyways, thanks for your reply and sorry to derail this. One final comment, the PAK-FA isn't the only competitor. I mentioned it because I know quiet a bit about it, but isn't the Gripen NG a 5th gen. platform? And of course we have the Chinese J-XX.
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Dalregementet
New Member
In Norwegian media, they publish that the F35 life cycle cost is about 3 times as high as for Gripen. I don´t believe that figure, but if the price is "just" twice as high, then I think the decision in Norway will be in favour of Gripen. It will be politically impossible for the Norwegian Government to make another decision if Gripen meet the Norwegian air force technical requirements. Earlier this year, for the Norwegian choice, the F35 benefitted from the Russian/Georgian war. In the light of the global finace crisis, Gripen now benefits from a relatively low price.
http://www.tu.no/industri/article182923.ece
http://www.p4.no/story.aspx?id=287856
http://www.siste.no/utenriks/article3829313.ece
http://img.nrk.no/nyheter/1.6247965
http://www.tu.no/industri/article182923.ece
http://www.p4.no/story.aspx?id=287856
http://www.siste.no/utenriks/article3829313.ece
http://img.nrk.no/nyheter/1.6247965
Grand Danois
Entertainer
It's based on the Israeli purchase, which does not indicate cost for Norway. Dissimilar packages.
The yanks are probably about to devaluate the dollar. To deal with debts and shore up intl competitiveness.
Btw,
Regjeringen skal etter planen bestemme seg for hvilket fly Norge skal kjøpe innen nyttår. Da vil også prisen bli gjort kjent i en stortingsmelding.
http://www.siste.no/utenriks/article3829313.ece
We shall know pretty soon, shan't we...
Addendum:
"G-35 Lightning II" ??!!
http://www.p4.no/story.aspx?id=287856
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