PAK-FA / T-50: Russian 5th Generation Fighter

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Dr Freud

New Member
Terminal IR guidance is a must have for anyone taking on vlo, i believe irst on planes will evolve enough next few years to make bvr attack on f22 feasible.
problem is a dry mac 1.7 f22 will outrun the bvr, except perhaps a speed demon meteor
 
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Salty Dog

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Dr Freud said:
Terminal IR guidance is a must have for anyone taking on vlo, i believe irst on planes will evolve enough next few years to make bvr attack on f22 feasible.
problem is a dry mac 1.7 f22 will outrun the bvr, except perhaps a speed demon meteor
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I interpret your comments as IRST will search and track a VLO to be engaged BVR.

IR is still considered within the visual spectrum, so why not use ASRAAM with IR seekers since most likely you will already meet WVR criteria and avoid having to disclose yourself by using radar.

I might be missing something here, so please explain.
 
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Dr Freud

New Member
you interpret me right.

a russian pilot said irst will triple in range, from 50 to 150 km within 7 years.
this ofcourse is speculation until we are actually there, but i don't see it unfeasible
 
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Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Dr Freud said:
Terminal IR guidance is a must have for anyone taking on vlo, i believe irst on planes will evolve enough next few years to make bvr attack on f22 feasible.
problem is a dry mac 1.7 f22 will outrun the bvr, except perhaps a speed demon meteor

..............

you interpret me right.

a russian pilot said irst will triple in range, from 50 to 150 km within 7 years.
this ofcourse is speculation until we are actually there, but i don't see it unfeasible
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Russan's say alot of things. They said the PAK-FA would be flying last year remember, oh and that the rusiian navy would be at soviet levels in 20 years, not to mention the S-400's ability to detect VLO platforms at 200 km's and therefore an implied ability to do something about it. I'd take that claim with a pinch (or bucket) of salt. But lets assume for the sake of argument that the max detection range of IRST's is 150km, there are a few generic limitations to IR based systems.

1. IRST's cant do a volume search, they need to be cued by annother system such as radar or ESM/RWR, which are both effected by VLO techniqes. Therefore even if an IRST can actually detect a platform at 150km's, its not going to be able to search like a radar. The principle is alot like looking through a telescope, you have to amplify the IR radiation from a small area of the sky. Therefore if you want to search the whole volume infront of you you can only look at a tiny portion of it at once. As an example, if you live near a flight path, next time you hear an aircraft outide grab a telescope or pair of binoculars, put some earplugs in and look for the plane (i actually tried this once when i was a kid). I'll save you the trouble, theres no chance in hell you will ever find the target looking only at such a tiny piece of sky at once. The same limitations apply to IRST's. In order to search effectively you have to viev a larger area at once (zoom out), but this also means that your detection range is drasticlly reduced, cind of a catch 22.

2. IRST's are wether dependant, they can not see through cloud. Therfore the capability of your primary sensor is totally dependant on the state of the atmosphere. Thats not a very good thing when your evemy has no such limitations.

3. IRST's can not track in the true sence of the word because on their own they can not give range data. This defficiency is rectified on current models by a laser range finder which is also wether dependant. These range finders also are detectable and will advertise your position to the target.

Therefore even if IRST's improve 3 fold in 7 years as is claimed, in reality this will change little tactically when faceing a VLO platform. The legacy platform will still need annother source to cue their IRST's onto the target, and that "other source" will be reliant on detecting EM emmitions or useing HF radar. Both of which are very problematic considering LPI radars and networking for the former, and the expence & complexity of HF radars which can be countered by the intoduction of HF absorbing RAM anyway. The enemy will be utilizeing an active fased array radar that will provide very acurate track data while searching out to 200km+, IRST will never ever be comperable to contemporary radars and in the BVR game that means your toast.

As for IR guided BVR missile shots, is it possible to engage a VLO platform like this? Maybe, again if you can detect and track the VLO platform (which as i have allready stated is very problematic) and if the VLO platform hasn't killed you first then i guess you can shoot an IR guided missile. However IR guidence is inferior to ARH for BVR missiles, because the former doesn't give range data. So does it allow the user to effectively engage VLO platforms? IMHO No. Too much depends on the wether and the unanswered question of what exactly detected the VLO platform in the first place which cued the IRST, and then you have to get an IR guided missile fired. All this has to happen BEFORE you get killed by the VLO platform your trying to find. Basiclly it does not provide anything near parity.
 
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Scorpion82

New Member
Ozzy Blizzard said:
Russan's say alot of things. They said the PAK-FA would be flying last year remember, oh and that the rusiian navy would be at soviet levels in 20 years, not to mention the S-400's ability to detect VLO platforms at 200 km's and therefore an implied ability to do something about it. I'd take that claim with a pinch (or bucket) of salt. But lets assume for the sake of argument that the max detection range of IRST's is 150km, there are a few generic limitations to IR based systems.

1. IRST's cant do a volume search, they need to be cued by annother system such as radar or ESM/RWR, which are both effected by VLO techniqes. Therefore even if an IRST can actually detect a platform at 150km's, its not going to be able to search like a radar. The principle is alot like looking through a telescope, you have to amplify the IR radiation from a small area of the sky. Therefore if you want to search the whole volume infront of you you can only look at a tiny portion of it at once. As an example, if you live near a flight path, next time you hear an aircraft outide grab a telescope or pair of binoculars, put some earplugs in and look for the plane (i actually tried this once when i was a kid). I'll save you the trouble, theres no chance in hell you will ever find the target looking only at such a tiny piece of sky at once. The same limitations apply to IRST's. In order to search effectively you have to viev a larger area at once (zoom out), but this also means that your detection range is drasticlly reduced, cind of a catch 22.

2. IRST's are wether dependant, they can not see through cloud. Therfore the capability of your primary sensor is totally dependant on the state of the atmosphere. Thats not a very good thing when your evemy has no such limitations.

3. IRST's can not track in the true sence of the word because on their own they can not give range data. This defficiency is rectified on current models by a laser range finder which is also wether dependant. These range finders also are detectable and will advertise your position to the target.

Therefore even if IRST's improve 3 fold in 7 years as is claimed, in reality this will change little tactically when faceing a VLO platform. The legacy platform will still need annother source to cue their IRST's onto the target, and that "other source" will be reliant on detecting EM emmitions or useing HF radar. Both of which are very problematic considering LPI radars and networking for the former, and the expence & complexity of HF radars which can be countered by the intoduction of HF absorbing RAM anyway. The enemy will be utilizeing an active fased array radar that will provide very acurate track data while searching out to 200km+, IRST will never ever be comperable to contemporary radars and in the BVR game that means your toast.

As for IR guided BVR missile shots, is it possible to engage a VLO platform like this? Maybe, again if you can detect and track the VLO platform (which as i have allready stated is very problematic) and if the VLO platform hasn't killed you first then i guess you can shoot an IR guided missile. However IR guidence is inferior to ARH for BVR missiles, because the former doesn't give range data. So does it allow the user to effectively engage VLO platforms? IMHO No. Too much depends on the wether and the unanswered question of what exactly detected the VLO platform in the first place which cued the IRST, and then you have to get an IR guided missile fired. All this has to happen BEFORE you get killed by the VLO platform your trying to find. Basiclly it does not provide anything near parity.
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How is the PIRATE capable to detect and track 200 targets simultaneously, if no volume search capability is given?
 
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qwerty223

New Member
who has more infomation about the first flight of the Su-30BM? It maiden on the 19th morning 11 something and last for 50mins.
 
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Scorpion82

New Member
qwerty223 said:
who has more infomation about the first flight of the Su-30BM? It maiden on the 19th morning 11 something and last for 50mins.
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Pictures posted at keypublishing, show the aircraft with a pitoted radome. I assume the Irbis (shown on MAKS) was temporaritly replaced by test equippment.
 
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Scorpion82

New Member
shanks009 said:
what about the su 37. will it enter the production line ? can it compete with f22 ?
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Please do a search in the forums there're plenty of threads about it and I'm really tired to repeat my self again and again. Search for anything with Su-35 in its title or directly for Su-37 in the contents.
 
Feanor

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
shanks009 said:
what about the su 37. will it enter the production line ? can it compete with f22 ?
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No, and no. The Su-37 is an Su-27M with thrust vectoring engines. It was a test prototype and will never see production. It had inferior avionics and huge rcs so it can't compete with the Raptor.
 
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nevidimka

New Member
Anyone know about this?

The latest Russian technical literature on the Su-35BM/Su-35-1 Flanker series shows that the KNIRTI Sorbstiya wingtip jamming pods are being replaced with a new design, which most closely resembles the G to J band TsNIRTI MSP-418K DRFM (Digital RF Memory - Цифровое устройство анализа и формирования радиосигнала (ЦУАФР)) based jamming pod, displayed at MAKS in 2003. The inclusion of DRFM capability is important, insofar is it is the current state of the art in Western defensive jamming equipment. A DRFM allows the equipment to digitally capture the hostile radar waveform with good fidelity, and then replay altered copies to deceive the victim radar. Refer MSP-418K URL: http://www.cnirti.ru/catalog-10-18.htm and 6-bit DRFM module URL: http://www.cnirti.ru/catalog-11-24.htm.


This ECM has already been developed back then. And it could be the standard ECM type integrated with the new PAK FA and it could be offered for the new SU35 BM or any other russian planes.
 
Feanor

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Any news on whether it's just a serial prototype or something being readied for serial production?
 
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nevidimka

New Member
I'm not sure, but it looks likely that its still a prototype, but then again that picture was in 2003. I'm sure a great deal of development would have taken place in 5 years. Also it looks like this is gonna be the standard ECM for the PAK-FA, as its the most modern type.
 
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Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
nevidimka said:
Also it looks like this is gonna be the standard ECM for the PAK-FA, as its the most modern type.
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There's a reasonable chance that this technology will have been superseeded by that time. The PAK-FA is still a concept in real terms (albeit an obviously concrete one) its not quite just arround the corner yet. EW's a fickle buisiness and the game changes quickly, the PAK-FA is simply too far out to know yet whats going to consititute its ECM suite. We dont know for sure what the F-35's EW suite will be capable of and there are production models out there flying arround as we type. Theres not even a firm public image of what the PAK-FA will even look like yet let alone a testeb flying (not counting the SU-47 and MIG MFI). Still it will be interesting to see what little goodies the russians pack into her, i heard conformal AESA's were on the table?
 
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Eeshaan

New Member
Ozzy Blizzard said:
There's a reasonable chance that this technology will have been superseeded by that time. The PAK-FA is still a concept in real terms (albeit an obviously concrete one) its not quite just arround the corner yet. EW's a fickle buisiness and the game changes quickly, the PAK-FA is simply too far out to know yet whats going to consititute its ECM suite. We dont know for sure what the F-35's EW suite will be capable of and there are production models out there flying arround as we type. Theres not even a firm public image of what the PAK-FA will even look like yet let alone a testeb flying (not counting the SU-47 and MIG MFI). Still it will be interesting to see what little goodies the russians pack into her, i heard conformal AESA's were on the table?
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Here's some info on the fighter. AESA, supercruise, stealth etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAK-FA
 
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