Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Aussie Digger

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hello all...can anyone tell me what percentage of the defence budget navy receives?
If you are serious about this question, it's pretty easy to find out.

All the facts and figures are listed in black and white, right here:

http://www.defence.gov.au/budget/08-09/pbs/2008-2009_Defence_PBS_04_p1_s2.pdf

Just go to Navy Capabilities section and you can see how much the Australian Government is spending on the Navy in 2008/9 financial year.

Scroll down a bit further and you can find out how much Government is spending on defence.

Then you simply have to do your sums...

Good luck. :)
 

mattyem

New Member
new ships

I have recently herd the RAN is getting 3/4 new ships. I thought the purchase seems a bit odd considering the manning shortages the RAN is currently experiences. It appears to be mirroring that of the RNZN and its protector fleet and personnel shortage.

Is the RAN planning on decommissioning any ships, or are the new ships an addition to its fleet as apposed to replacements for current vessels
 
A

Aussie Digger

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I have recently herd the RAN is getting 3/4 new ships. I thought the purchase seems a bit odd considering the manning shortages the RAN is currently experiences. It appears to be mirroring that of the RNZN and its protector fleet and personnel shortage.

Is the RAN planning on decommissioning any ships, or are the new ships an addition to its fleet as apposed to replacements for current vessels
The RAN is getting a heap of new ships over the next decade or so, but they are replacement vessels.

RAN has ordered 3x F-100 class Destroyers, which RAN calls Air Warfare Destroyers (AWD's) to replace it's 4x Adelaide Class FFG's. An additional AWD (ie: the 4th) is a definite possibility in years to come.

RAN has also ordered 2x Juan Carlo Class LHD's to replace HMAS Tobruk and either HMAS Manoora or Kanimbla (which one hasn't been announced as yet to the best of my recollection) in the Amphibious warfare role. These will be amongst the biggest ships RAN has ever operated at 27,000 tons and will massively improve RAN's Amphibious Warfare capability...

RAN has also recently purchased a new fleet of 15x patrol craft, known as the Armidale Class Patrol Boats.

RAN has also recently purchased a new fleet Oiler to replace HMAS Westralia.

RAN also has plans to replace it's existing "at sea" replenishment ship, HMAS Success with a new but similar type of vessel and replace the remaining LPA, (either Manoora or Kanimbla, depending on which is replaced by the LHD) with a new "fast" sea-lift ship.

So yes, it has a pretty extensive plan to upgrade it's capabilities, without increasing the overall size of the fleet and the newer vessels have substantially reduced manning requirements, which should go some way to relieving the manning issue.

RAN's plan doesn't exactly mirror the RNZN though. We are actually buying combat capability... :eek:nfloorl:
 
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A

Aussie Digger

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Harsh, but fair.
The way I see it, it's entirely deserved. The NZ Government are forcing it's Defence force into a dangerous situation IMHO because they are simply refusing to provide modern combat capability for the NZDF.

It's lovely to be able to say that ones Allies may provide for us and cover all our capability gaps, or that we don't face a threat.

But WHAT if they DO? Military capability cannot simply be created overnight, it takes years. Not possessing a credible, even if limited combat capability in all 4 environments (Land, Sea, Air and Space) makes it more likely that someone eventually WILL "try on" the New Zealanders, because operational deployments aren't stopping.

No-one is likely to invade NZ true, but her interests don't stop at the limit of her EEZ, no matter how much her leaders might want it to and whilst her forces are deployed operationally a chance exists they may have to undertake combat operations.

I truly hope nothing bad happens, but I can't help but feel that someday NZ forces are going to physically suffer because of p*ss weak politicians. A sad day indeed and I hope they are made accountable for it, should that outcome ever eventuate.

The planned upgrades to the RNZN ANZAC frigates are a perfect example. No inherent offensive capability in the ship itself, beyond the 5 inch gun, which is restricted to a maximum range of 20 odd kays.

The only other capability is the Seasprite helo of which they operate a tiny fleet and it's offensive capability to limited to a short ranged air to surface weapon, which they employ in an anti-ship role.

The ships themselves have a single fire control channel and I don't recall any plans to change this under LDTP, despite the fact that ESSM is apparently in the plan for integration on the ships.

In my opinion, SPS-49 radar upgrades, a dual channel fire control capability, Phalanx 1B and ESSM is the bare MINIMUM such a frigate should have in this day and age and RNZN's aren't even getting this much.

Australia's at least have Harpoon, ESSM, the legacy weapons AND are getting a new 3D radar system and multiple fire control directors, as long as the system bolted on the top of that nice, grey painted building in Canberra proves workable... :)
 

mattyem

New Member
new zealand government looking toward the wrong direction

I totally agree with the nz government putting military spending toward the wrong areas. The labour government has become to complacent with our current situation on a global scale and is to scared to commit troops/sailors/airmen to any area with a moderated risk (excluding nzsas).
I think the government feels that they are doing the service personel a favour by keeping out of harms way, but honestly why serve your country if you dont want to get your feet wet, serving personnel must almost semi expect at some stage in their career that they may see action. Servicemen are getting frustrated by the goverments view, and dont see the goverment as doing them any favours by keeping them out of the way.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
New Zealand has to get past their present technical personnel retention and recruitment problems before a nation and navy they can concentrate on weapons and capability. Project Protector has been in the works for several years, their manpower problems should have been detected and solved years ago. While short term ship lay ups provide some technical personnel, short term ship lay ups is not the long term answer for any navy.
 

mattyem

New Member
project protector

I think it will be interesting to see the results of project protector when all ships are online. It would surprise me to see all ships manned and at sea or at notice for sea!
I wonder how many millions of dollars of ship will be tied up alongside, or even locked up if current manning shortages arent sorted out by delivery, and also what joe public thinks about the tax dollars sitting alongside devonport naval base not doing what the government said they would!
Personally I dont think protector was the best option for the navy, too many ships, too many billets in too short of a time. An MRV ship I feel was a good option, filling several roles, but maybe just another frigate or similar for now, and then the ipvs further down the track.
 

PeterM

Active Member
a new but similar type of vessel and replace the remaining LPA, (either Manoora or Kanimbla, depending on which is replaced by the LHD) with a new "fast" sea-lift ship.
"similar type of vessel" and "fast" seem to be the key points and not obviously linked.

To be honest I didn't realise there was the "fast" requirement. I had assumed the potential vessel would likely be based on the spanish 13,900t Galicia class LDP(where the RAN would leverage the provenb expertise working with Navantia.

On the other hand "Fast" seems to be a different ball game.

In which case the a potential option could be the 112m Joint High Speed Vesssel (JHSV) currently being developed for the US by Incat and Revolution Design.

This leverages the US experience with prototype vessels HSV-X1 Joint Venture, TSV-1X Spearhead and HSV 2 Swift and the RAN's experience with the Jervis Bay.

for more information: http://www.incat.com.au/domino/incat/incatweb.nsf/v-title/JHSV Program?OpenDocument

but does this fit the "similar type of vessel" to Manoora/Kanimbla?

Does anyone have any thoughts?
 

mattyem

New Member
amphibious support ships

I think the Joint High Speed Vesssel (JHSV) covers some aspects of the Manoora/Kanimbla with troop transport and helo operation. Diferences being in the total number of troops.

I believe the kanimbla/manoora can have a compliment of 400 troops where as the JHSV has only 1/4 of that.

Another difference to is the Manoora/Kanimbla carry onbaord 2 LCM8's for beach landing of troops and vehicles where as the JHCV only has a 'roll on roll off' capability or maybe underslung loads via helo.

The JHSV appears to be a very capable ship, but in terms of replacing Manoora/Kanimbla I dont think it would meet the roles required of the RAN

Just my thoughts

Thanks
 

PeterM

Active Member
I think the Joint High Speed Vesssel (JHSV) covers some aspects of the Manoora/Kanimbla with troop transport and helo operation. Diferences being in the total number of troops.

I believe the kanimbla/manoora can have a compliment of 400 troops where as the JHSV has only 1/4 of that.

Another difference to is the Manoora/Kanimbla carry onbaord 2 LCM8's for beach landing of troops and vehicles where as the JHCV only has a 'roll on roll off' capability or maybe underslung loads via helo.

The JHSV appears to be a very capable ship, but in terms of replacing Manoora/Kanimbla I dont think it would meet the roles required of the RAN

Just my thoughts

Thanks
on the surface, I agree, but it seems that the JHSV is expected to carry 416 troops

The Galicia is listed as carrying up to 543 fully equipped troops plus 72 air crew etc

The vehicle area is over 1,000m² and can accommodate up to 130 armoured personnel carriers or 33 main battle tanks. The docking well provides an area of 885m².

The Galicia also carries various landing ships. Economic speed is 12 kts


from http://www.incat.com.au/domino/incat/incatweb.nsf/v-title/JHSV Program?OpenDocument

JHSV Specification
The ship will be designed for a maximum crew accommodation of 41 persons berthed in staterooms, have permanent berths for 104 embarked troops, and have 312 airline style seats for embarked forces. A dedicated interior Roll-on/Roll-off mission deck size of no less than 1,858.06 m2 is required. The ship must be fully supportable within the current commercial and DoD supply chains. She will be capable of transporting 544.31 metric tonnes (MT) (threshold); 635.03 MT (objective) of personnel, supplies, and equipment 1200 nautical miles (NM) at an average speed of 35 knots in a significant wave height of 1.25 m (threshold/objective) without refuelling.
The JHSV will be shallow draught - 4.5 metre (under 15 feet) and reportedly will be alot more flexible capability-wise.

A key point may be that the new vessel will be supporting the 2 Canberra class vessels.

From a manning point of view, the Galicia class has a compliment of 115, whereas the JHSV has a crew compliment of 41

From a procurement point of view, the JHSV would be a substantially cheaper option, could that come into play?

With an expanded army and considerable overseas deployments, is it possible that the RAN could get a Galicia style vessel and a JHSV? or perhaps 2 x JHSV's to replace Manoora/Kanimbla?

In the end I have no idea and to be honest it if for much more informed people than myself to debate. But the idea of "similar type of vessel" and "fast" seem to be reasonably mutually exclusive; it be interesting to see how things develop.
 

mattyem

New Member
Jhsv

Having that many embarked troops in airline style seats limits the distance or time at sea that you can use those embarked troops.

The time I have spent at sea in a four berth mess is bad enough, but spending any extended period of time at sea in a small seat such as that, is surely bound to have a negative effect on morale to that of a combat soldier.

In a support role to that of a larger amphibious ship, I feel it could be of good use, or for seabourne evacutaion by use of helo's to ferry troops from shore to ship.

As a supporting role I think this would be a good ship,
 

McTaff

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Having that many embarked troops in airline style seats limits the distance or time at sea that you can use those embarked troops.

The time I have spent at sea in a four berth mess is bad enough, but spending any extended period of time at sea in a small seat such as that, is surely bound to have a negative effect on morale to that of a combat soldier.

In a support role to that of a larger amphibious ship, I feel it could be of good use, or for seabourne evacutaion by use of helo's to ferry troops from shore to ship.

As a supporting role I think this would be a good ship,
I spent four weeks in the Kanimbla class troops mess, and we were at perhaps quarter capacity for that troops mess.

I have to say, it was a pretty cramped, uncomfortable and undesirable experience. I'd hate to think what it was like at full capacity - there was just literally nowhere to go, nothing to do. It was either lay in your bunk, or squeeze twenty of us alongside one another on a bench seat designed for eight folks.

We are all professionals here, but if I were a grunt I'd pick a cold tent in miserable weather any day over being crammed into that sardine can again. The simple addition of 'airline seats' would have been a welcome respite!

-------------------------------

That said, there was a discussion earlier in this thread (I believe) regarding Incat proposals: there were a number of factors to consider:
1) Ability to dock at most major ports (I believe the fast cat had a much shallower draft)
2) Ability to Ro/Ro or speed unload (points in this category went to purpose built Ro/Ro)
3) Troops capacity (divided opinion)
4) Speed (points going to the cat, hands down)
5) Operating costs (divided opinions - depending if cruise power or maximum range power were used)
6) Total Initial Outlay (this one is open to the floor)
7) Ability to carry heavy vehicles and equipment (Ro/Ro seemed to be ahead here)
8) Embarked rotary wing assets (Ro/Ro ships could carrier heavier airframes IIRC)
9) Ability to VERTREP or load/unload via helo (both types do it in different ways)

There are other variables, but to me, going with a High Speed Vessel makes more sense - we will have the long haul heavy amphibious stuff all set with the LHD's. Given the current move to amphibious tri-service doctrine, a fast craft deployable at a moments notice far outweighs the need for a slow, inflexible Ro/Ro ship.

We use light infantry battalions, not heavy armour divisions, so it makes sense that as long as the proposed HSV can carry a bunch of Bushmasters, a few towed artillery pieces and some ASLAVS, along with the troops to deploy, then it is what we need.

If it's a low key trouble spot, send in the HSV supported by a couple of frigates (Hopefully one of them an ANZAC for NGS). Approach the trouble spot, land the grunts with the toys, secure the area, sort out a landing strip and if required the C-17's and LHD's arrive later with the command, cavalry and coffee.

If it's more high key, it plays a different role: Your LHD lands a large troop contingent, and they secure a serviceable dock. Then your HSV gets in, dumps the load, and zips back home for the next ferry-load. Alternatively, it is on standby to move any number of troops to a different zone.

As a secondary mission, wouldn't you rather pledge aid to a disaster zone, load the HSV and send it out - flat biscuit all the way - to arrive on the scene with supplies and a contingent of ground troops to clear and secure (once again, you guessed it) a landing area for your transport aircraft that will inevitably be needed? An LHD in that role would be a little on the slow side, and it represents an enormous projection asset that you have moved offshore, away from where it is able to be loaded, juiced and sent to a trouble spot elsewhere - the HSV is a lower risk option as it isn't a combat platform. Of course, a Ro/Ro would also work, but the issues of suitable docks, and slow speed render it less of an advantage.

I quite enjoyed the discussion on this earlier, and based on my experience and also the interesting and valid points raised on both sides, mypreference would definitely be the purchase of at least one HSV. Given the speed, flexibility and in turn the much improved mission profile it affords us, it is too good an opportunity to pass up.
 

mattyem

New Member
Jhsv

With the airline seating, they are not billets so trips any longer than a day would prove uncomfortable simply because there is no sleeping area! would you rather a pit or a seat!

For what they are designed for they are great ships, but not a complete replacement for the likes of kanimbla,

I know of the dicomfort of the troop messes in kanimbla, and many of the aussied who stayed with us on hmnzs canterbury agreed about the better standard of living on canterbury, purely becasue its a newer ship and only has 12 man messes.

These ships would prove a great asset but the need for heavy lift amphibious ships will still remain
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think Australia will end up getting atleast one JHSV.. I know there are plans for a 120m one and the possibility exists for a 150m. In our region, being able to dispatch quickly, secure the airport, shipping port before almost any operation involving other assets seems to be a priority. I'm guessing these guys would be spec op people, most of the time SAS. They should be able to survive a 12-20 hour cruise. The ride would be not completely pleasant, but fast for a ship. I think a ship in the 120m range would be very valuable, the extra space would be noticible over the current 112m designs.

I don't know if 1 would provide enough lift to get the basics done right. Its an Aussie build, how much they end up costing is open to debate.

With two capable LHD's able to carry over 1,200 personel (inc sailors), heavy equipment etc will do a great job being the backbone for sea lift. This ship will have gyms, rec areas, breifing (theater), command space, massive mess, a giant flat top avalible for ocean runs, huge internal space for utlity space, hospital, shops, dental etc. While slow, these ships should allow even picky land lubbin grunts to arrive in style, fresh and ready.

I don't think people realise how these ships will change the ADF.

I would like to see another vessel is the 6-10,000t range specifically to replace Kanimbla. I would even concider a referb of Kanimbla to keep her operational. Offering additional space for troops, command, air, lift, etc.
 

mattyem

New Member
The JHSV would be a good compliment to long rang amphibious warfare for use with SF, adding another dimension to that of long range airborne insertion.

It would be nice seeing the likes of Kanimbla or manoora but cost wise, it will only keep on increasing making it seem more logical replacing them with new ships with new technology.

When I went through the engine spaces of hmas kanimbla and saw the watches set up onboard the ship. Replacing the ship with a new one with todays technology will greatly reduce manning requirements of the equivilent ship, and make operating the plant much easier.

Kanimbla currently has two manned machinery control rooms, where as todays technology allows one MCR which can be unmanned during normal sailing at sea, only manning it during 'specials' or action/emergency stations.

HMNZS canterburys IPMS (intergrated platform managment System) is a good example of this, the ships whole plant is intergrated into one system controlable from one computer. This system allows a lesser amount of technicians onboard and a very easy visual overview and control of the system. getting a little of subject now.

Also todays ships propulsions plants arent always slow, im sure the LHD's would have a cruising speed of about 12-15kts and a max of about 19-21kt which isnt slow by any means considering the size.

Thats how I view things at the moment anyway

Thanks
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
more then likely kanimbla will go when tobruk is pulled and replaced with Canberra, with Manoora to wait for the replacement.as stated, no official policy but insider tip.

I'd rather see a Ro/Ro or sea lift the HSV, such as UK Bay class or LPD at best. HSV could work in Pac area, but little else. Not all deployments will result from off chance another nation in PacRim fails. other options would work better to complement LHD more then stand alone. As for Success, US T-AKE program or Canadas replacement supply ship program would be good to take a look at.
 

McTaff

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I'd rather see a Ro/Ro or sea lift the HSV, such as UK Bay class or LPD at best. HSV could work in Pac area, but little else. Not all deployments will result from off chance another nation in PacRim fails.
That is actually the point: The LHD's and an HSV are filling two different roles, both of them will never be far from the Pacific Area.

The idea behind the HSV is that you have a high speed dispatch, for either cycling troops or urgently needed supplies. If you have a protracted deployment, the HSV is a great way of delivering on time, every time.

If a fast deployment is required, HSV is your best option.

If you need to mount an amphibious operation, the LHD's are there first, but the HSV is able to leave slightly later, allowing embarkation of troop/cargo units that are harder to assemble, or perhaps requiring some preparation. It could arrive at the same time, or failing that, at least it isn't arriving far too late.

Then you have the "Vung Tau Ferry" all over again, only faster. The flexibility and speed will pay for itself - saving "a couple of days one way" adds up very quickly.

The real clincher is the draft: I quote AGRA from much further back in this thread:
The sealift requirement is not for trooplifting. Under the ADAS the LHDs will provide the deployment of the combined arms battlegroup and the sealift capability will sustain it with consumables and provide the full vehicle and equipment alotments. Moving people anyway is easily enough done with airlift. Sealift is for cargo.

The problem with the RO-RO option is draft - 6.5m - that limits access to the more established ports (like Singapore) or those lucky enough to have deep harbours (like Laha). Then there is offload. How long will the RO-RO have to sit in the port while Army terminal ops remove the cargo? A few days? Esepcially as she will have to sit in deeper water so its wichning down to lighters. The HSV can motor right up to the jetty and with 500-1,000 tonnes of cargo offload it much easier than the "eight" times the cargo load.

By having larger numbers of smaller ships you are also able to move cargos to different ports. Say we are doing an East Timor like mission - there are at least 4-5 ports or beaches you would want to offload to, not all just to Dilli. By going point to point with HSVs you can cut down on further logistical burdens.

Sailors may love RO-ROs but soliders love HSVs...
Of course you limit your cargo with an HSV design but the flexibility and speed of an HSV is really what we need. Aside from all the other niceties with relief/aid/support operations, our doctrine certainly asks for what the HSV design delivers.

If there was an acquisition project started, the only issue is the cost between each platform: What is the cost difference for (a) initial purchase, (b) crew requirements and (c) consumables burn? (Can you get three HSV's for the cost of one Ro/Ro?:p:)

The other, and lasting thing is that we will never, ever get budgetary considerations for another class of vessels, Ro/Ro or HSV. At this stage it's almost a given that we won't see a third LHD, which we do need. More transportation will be seen as a "frivolous expense" in the current budgetary climate unless someone can show the government a distinct requirement. (A case of beer to the man that does!)
 

PeterM

Active Member
Personally, I would like to see a large LPD to replace Manoora/Kanimbla

I think that as the Army continues to be hardened, the need for a heavy lift ship able to transport heavy armoured vehicle will increase.

It is likely to come down to 4 main options for a LPD (although it would likely be a variant)


25,300t San Antonio Class - 700 troops; 2 LCAC, 14 AAAVs (or similar); Hanger space for 3 NH90 and landing space for 6 NH90

16,000t Albion Class - 300 troops (650 emergency), 4 LCU Mk10, 4 LCVP Mk5; landing space for 2 NH90

13,900t Galicia Class - 540 troops, 6 LCVP (or combination of LCM, LCU, LCVP); landing space for 6 NH90

16,800t (extended) Rotterdam Class - 613 troops, 6 LCVP mk3, 4 LCU mk9 or 4 LCM 8; landing space for 2 NH90, Hanger space for 6 NH90

The better options seem to be something along the lines of the extended Rotterdam - designed to embark, transport and disembark one Marine Corps battalion, including the associated combat and logistic support vehicles and equipment.



The Joint High Speed Vesssel (JHSV) style designs are solid, but I agree that they are better suited to a supporting role. Their biggest asset (IMHO) is in reducing the logistical footprint for overseas deployments.
 
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