RPGs vs Leo2, RPGs vs M-2001 (how many of them to do the job)
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Kosovo=Serbia
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Well if you hit tank with RPGs, I think armour on that part of tank if not penetrated ,will be at least in some level taper away, or melted ....anyway get tinier. Right?
And if you hit again same spot (not exactly the same but in a range of, lets say
half meter) wouldnt it get if not penetrated that more weaker and hotter. And if you hit it again and again.... I dont understand how it cant be destroyed. It is not logical. Right? And it is very possible that rise of temp inside of tank after multiple attacks can be fatal for crew.
And I also heard that best place to hit to disable modern tank with RPGs is linker between turret and rest of vehicle on the front of the tank, just bellow gun? Hows that sound?
And if you hit again same spot (not exactly the same but in a range of, lets say
half meter) wouldnt it get if not penetrated that more weaker and hotter. And if you hit it again and again.... I dont understand how it cant be destroyed. It is not logical. Right? And it is very possible that rise of temp inside of tank after multiple attacks can be fatal for crew.
And I also heard that best place to hit to disable modern tank with RPGs is linker between turret and rest of vehicle on the front of the tank, just bellow gun? Hows that sound?
... no. There will be a hole in that spot, which will be a few cm in diameter and several dozen cm deep.
Shaped Charge warheads don't "melt" armour, they fire a hydrodynamic solid "jet" straight through it to a certain depth.
Any behind-armour effect by a shaped charge is effected by either the "jet" itself (which is about 450°C hot) hitting parts inside the vehicle (including maybe a crew member), or by spalling of the armour through the exit of the jet out of the armour on the inside of the vehicle (which is prevented by spall liners in modern AFV).
If the jet of your shaped charge doesn't penetrate the armour, it won't have any effect beyond the above hole. Sure, with several dozen holes in it, the overall stability of the armour structure might suffer somewhat, but it's highly unlikely that you can hit a target with that kind of accuracy anyway.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/bullets2-shaped-charge.htm
Hmm. Wikipedia says Jägerregiment 1, but i've yet to find an actual source for that.
edit: One Austrian source claims that as well, so i guess we can go with that.
Couple other (mostly British) sources claim that Germany moved its ORF battalion into Kosovo in November, but of course that was only for the OP Rehearsal, and they've rotated to the next unit by now.
On standby is also the AUCON/ORF "company" (with 170 men, mixed formation with three platoons and four variety elements), formed by the Austrian 3rd PzGrenBde. AUCON would attach to the German force to bring it from battalion to regimental size, supplanting it with medical and MP forces, as well as force protection (incl. a mortar platoon btw *cough*).
AUCON is currently deployed in Germany with the German regiment on standby, officially for joint training.
edit: One Austrian source claims that as well, so i guess we can go with that.
Couple other (mostly British) sources claim that Germany moved its ORF battalion into Kosovo in November, but of course that was only for the OP Rehearsal, and they've rotated to the next unit by now.
On standby is also the AUCON/ORF "company" (with 170 men, mixed formation with three platoons and four variety elements), formed by the Austrian 3rd PzGrenBde. AUCON would attach to the German force to bring it from battalion to regimental size, supplanting it with medical and MP forces, as well as force protection (incl. a mortar platoon btw *cough*).
AUCON is currently deployed in Germany with the German regiment on standby, officially for joint training.
There is. Although to much less degree. This effect is much greater against modern composite armor than against old solid steel armor.
But i agree, 80 sounds very like usual drunken war tales.
Yes, of course. That's mostly the stability of the composite "lowering". This is mostly a function of the armor "working" - after all, composite armour works by eroding the jet against abrasion surfaces in the armour itself.
But you will of course need quite a number of hits within a very tight area to actually get an effect out of that.
As for the "70 RPGs", you can bet at least half bounced off anyway.
Ozzy Blizzard
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I actually think i heard this story on TV, they were interviewing the crew. Apparently it was early in the peice, during the inital advance when one challenger got separated from the rest of the unit during an ambush. The iraqies went for a mobility kill and hit the tracks, the CH2 was stuck. It spent a couple of hours getting ponded by light infantry with RPG's untill the they could be rescued. The tracks got busted and all of the sights were taken out but the main gun and coaxual MG were still operable so iraqies didnt move in from cover. The crew made it out without a scratch and the tank was recovered.
AFAIk RPG 7's are natoriously inacurate and unreliable, especially the models equiping the iraqi's, if they are locally produced like the local Ak stuff then they're probably going to have very high malfunction rates. Hitting a small target repeatedly, even on a stationary tank, when its shooting back is going to be very very diffcult. Therefore you could assume the pattern of hits on the challangerwas spread over the whole tank. A single shaped charge & jet is not going to be able to penitrate the armor of the most capable MBT's unless it hits a sweet spot. Thats why new gen ATGM's go utilise multiple warheads and go for a top kill.
I heard whilst browsing that they were RPG-29's that they were shooting but again unsubstantiated...
Maybe you got confused with the incident where a RPG-29 penetrated the lower hull of the Challi (With the ERA on it). The driver got injured there IIRC the whole incident.
This was the reason why it looks like that they are stripping this part of ERA in favor of more passive armor protection.
In the end I tend to say that nobody here is going into more details than the usual ones be it because one doesn't know or because no sane guy with the knowledge is going to leak them out.
Tanks usually field heavy frontal armor and tend to be vlunerable to smaller AT weapons at the back, sides and top. The mentioned turret ring is also vulnerable but also very difficult to hit.
As Kato said, armor is not really degenerating with several non-penetrating hits. One would need to hit the armor literally within centimeters of the same spot again and again.
This is just illusional and not possible.
And I never heard of heat generated by several AT hits getting a problem. This is not going to hurt the crew even if the temperature is going to rise a little bit.
This was the reason why it looks like that they are stripping this part of ERA in favor of more passive armor protection.
In the end I tend to say that nobody here is going into more details than the usual ones be it because one doesn't know or because no sane guy with the knowledge is going to leak them out.
Tanks usually field heavy frontal armor and tend to be vlunerable to smaller AT weapons at the back, sides and top. The mentioned turret ring is also vulnerable but also very difficult to hit.
As Kato said, armor is not really degenerating with several non-penetrating hits. One would need to hit the armor literally within centimeters of the same spot again and again.
This is just illusional and not possible.
And I never heard of heat generated by several AT hits getting a problem. This is not going to hurt the crew even if the temperature is going to rise a little bit.
Also, I can't see any RPG-29 being unreliable or a tank taking 70 hits for 2 reasons:
1. How would Iraqi soldiers get that many RPG-29s, I believe they're not as cheap or readily available as the RPG-7, I don't think there is any chance of an Iraqi Infantry unit with that many RPG-29s, and in 2003, I don't think they were even exported at that point in time, the only service they've provided (I think) is Israel-Lebanon (Hezbollah got them from Syria) and Iraq after the fall of Saddam.
2. The RPG-29 is proven to penetrate the armour (frontal-arc I think, but that's not confirmed) in one hit
1. How would Iraqi soldiers get that many RPG-29s, I believe they're not as cheap or readily available as the RPG-7, I don't think there is any chance of an Iraqi Infantry unit with that many RPG-29s, and in 2003, I don't think they were even exported at that point in time, the only service they've provided (I think) is Israel-Lebanon (Hezbollah got them from Syria) and Iraq after the fall of Saddam.
2. The RPG-29 is proven to penetrate the armour (frontal-arc I think, but that's not confirmed) in one hit
There are RPG-7 variants with exactly same warhead as RPG-29. So, mainly, it is not the question of obtaining RPG-29 particular, but rather the problems to obtain any modern warhead - be it RPG-7VR, RPG-29, RPG-32, or western variants like modern Panzerfaust.
Also, while it is certainly possible for RPG-29 to penetrate even most modern armor frontal - i'll guess it is only happens when hit in weak spot or under unfavorable angle (i.e. from above). I dont think RPG-29 have enough power to penetrate most modern armors like Merkava-4, Leo-2, etc strictly frontally.
First Paragraph-Exactly My point
Second Paragraph-In 2004 A challenger 2 had it's frontal armour of the HULL AND ERA penetrated by a RPG-29 in Iraq, luckily, no crewmembers died and only one of them was injured
Wishmaster
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That source is legit, and the story is mostly true.
To the guy who said RPG-29 breached CR2's glacis, no it didn't, it bounced of the ground and breached the belly of CR2. New armour was developed that protects against this type of damage.
EDIT: CR2 hasn't used ERA now for over 18 months, the ERA was also designed for CR1 in the 80's.
The lower hull of the Challi 2 has never been known to be very difficult to penetrate.
Exactly because of this they added the ERA. But one cannot hope to defend against a modern RPG warhead wiht old ERA and additionally ERA doesn't always work like desired.
This doesn't mean that a modern warhead is going to penetrate the new passive add-on armor or that other MBTs are as vulnerable there as the Challi 2.
And one shouldn't forget that such a hit is extremely difficult especially when one is not able to target relatively vulnerable vehicles which are on patrol or at checkpoints in an urban counter-insurgency environment.
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RPG-29 / RPG-7VR have tandem warheads, which where designed to penetrate 1.5 gen ERA like found on Challi 2. So ERA couldnt help in that case.
As i said, on every tank, even frontally, weak zones present quite substantial area. And again, shot from somewhat above or sides will will certainly penetrate.
That's what I wanted to say.
One cannot hope to defend against modern (aka tandem) warheads with old ERA.
And for sure there weakpoints on every tank.
I just wanted to say that just because the Challi is a little bit weak in this area it doesn't mean that other MBTs have the same problem in the same area.
And the new Challi 2 add-on armor might very well result in an unlucky insurget who thinks that he hit the right spot just to find out that the Challi is still fully operational...
One cannot hope to defend against modern (aka tandem) warheads with old ERA.
And for sure there weakpoints on every tank.
I just wanted to say that just because the Challi is a little bit weak in this area it doesn't mean that other MBTs have the same problem in the same area.
And the new Challi 2 add-on armor might very well result in an unlucky insurget who thinks that he hit the right spot just to find out that the Challi is still fully operational...