Marine Nationale (French Navy)

[kato]

Not necessarily. Depends on how far DCNS actually is with Project Juliette for example. All i've seen so far was a single CG graphic, although it tells something that they even have one.

Plus there's potentially a couple other options out there.
An enlarged Mistral (say 30kt) with an angled deck and a pair of catapults derived from other projects could be a short-term "lighter"/"cheaper" option.
Although you probably couldn't support the minimum required 32 Rafale + 3 Hawkeye + 5 NH90 from that. A pair of such ships maybe.

Though Juliette - or a conventional, modernized CdG - would be the more likely option in such a case.

 

[Spacearrow99]

Not necessarily. Depends on how far DCNS actually is with Project Juliette for example. All i've seen so far was a single CG graphic, although it tells something that they even have one.

Plus there's potentially a couple other options out there.
An enlarged Mistral (say 30kt) with an angled deck and a pair of catapults derived from other projects could be a short-term "lighter"/"cheaper" option.
Although you probably couldn't support the minimum required 32 Rafale + 3 Hawkeye + 5 NH90 from that. A pair of such ships maybe.

Though Juliette - or a conventional, modernized CdG - would be the more likely option in such a case.

A conventional, modified CDG would be the cheapest and fastest option. If the French MOD could finance it, Project Juliette would be the perfect solution, but it can't because of Juliette's price. Project Juliette would probably cost atleast 3 billion euros.

 

[contedicavour]

MN would have just about enough Rafales to deploy a second flight group. The Armée de l'Air and MN can share Rafales, so that the MN could deploy a second flight group in emergencies.

.

Rafale Marine is different from the Rafale of the Armée de l'Air... a bit like F35A vs F35C. So your proposal could work only if the Armée de l'Air accepts to equip a squadron with the Rafale Marine... unlikely...

cheers

 

[Spacearrow99]

Rafale Marine is different from the Rafale of the Armée de l'Air... a bit like F35A vs F35C. So your proposal could work only if the Armée de l'Air accepts to equip a squadron with the Rafale Marine... unlikely...

cheers

Ofcourse, the Rafale Marine is different from the Armée de l'Air version. The Rafale Marine have reinforced landing gear for carrier landings. The Armée de l'Air Rafale numbers will probably be cut in the next white paper, so the Armée de l'Air may be willing to go along with my proposal. Anyway, the Armée de l'Air doesn't have any say in this matter. Just like the Armée de Terre and MN when it comes to matters of procurement. If the MN gets ago ahead from Herve Morin, it will happen.

 

[contedicavour]

Ofcourse, the Rafale Marine is different from the Armée de l'Air version. The Rafale Marine have reinforced landing gear for carrier landings. The Armée de l'Air Rafale numbers will probably be cut in the next white paper, so the Armée de l'Air may be willing to go along with my proposal. Anyway, the Armée de l'Air doesn't have any say in this matter. Just like the Armée de Terre and MN when it comes to matters of procurement. If the MN gets ago ahead from Herve Morin, it will happen.

This could be an interesting discussion - who decides what on procurement. On technical aspects the armed forces still have their say, even if of course in the current situation they are unlikely to make a fuss, whatever arrives is welcome...

cheers

 

[Spacearrow99]

Here is a link to report the Commission of National Defense and the Armed Forces. It is a report about the three major MN procurement projects the Barracudas, FREMM and the PA2. The report is in French.

http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/13/cr-cdef/07-08/c0708026.asp


It looks like the Barracudas and the FREMM are the priority projects of the DGA. Building only 5 Barracudas would be bad ideal because the MN, wouldn't be able to maintain current operations. French SSN are part of the CDG BG and they protect the French SSBNs.

The Charles de Gaulle has 70% availability, so says the commission. The PA2 will cost 3 to 3.5 billion euros. The French may be looking for something like Kato's modified Mistral carrier. The PA2 is just to expense for them to finance it at this time.

 

[Rocco_NZ]

For anyone is interested, I took some photos of RMN Vendémiaire on her Anzac day visit to Wellington.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/26028018@N04/

It was interesting to note just how 'civil' the construction standards are. At first glance at least, far more so HMNZS Canterbury.

 

[Spacearrow99]

The French daily newspapers Le Monde, Le Figaro, and Liberation have published articles about the makeup, of the upcoming White Paper on Defense and National Security.

According to Le Monde, Sarkozy will probably order the PA2, but the program will probably be pushed back.

Apparently the MN will have 20 first rank frigates. A total of 11 FREMMS maybe ordered.

Probable 2020 MN Escort Fleet

5 La Fayettes
6 FREMM ASM
5 FREMM AVT
2 Horizon
2 FREDA

(No Details were given about the possible La Fayettes upgrades.)

My Comments:
There will be more than 8 FREMMS built. The DCNS has put large cancelation clauses in the contract for the 2 and 3 batchs of FREMMS. DCNS, FREMM export prospects are good, but most of the proposed deals with countries like Greece, Algeria, and Morrocco would involve transfers of technology.

 

[youpii]

If PA2 is pushed back now, sense of urgency will be gone, it will be pushed back many times and only come at the next urgency: to replace CdG.

FREMMs are good ships for ASM, underpowered for AA and bloody expensive for coast guards.

"Mer et Marine" published a DCNS paper about how FREMM AVT would be nice for Anti-piracy missions "Piraterie, assauts depuis la mer : Vivement la FREMM AVT". I can't believe journalism became that.

For Greece, DCNS plans to establish a subsidiary there, and use it for cheaper export markets.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Hmm, then the MN is going to lack serious AAW coverage. You can't rely on coverted FREMMs - with just two Horizons the French will have to rely on allied support for any serious operation. Maybe it wouldn't do anything by itself anyway, but it reduces French naval independence.

The Royal Navy should be glad it will have at least 6 Darings!

 

[Spacearrow99]

Hmm, then the MN is going to lack serious AAW coverage. You can't rely on coverted FREMMs - with just two Horizons the French will have to rely on allied support for any serious operation. Maybe it wouldn't do anything by itself anyway, but it reduces French naval independence.

The Royal Navy should be glad it will have at least 6 Darings!

The MN lacks serious AAW coverage now, but it performs many low threat level operations. The future MN AA coverage will be much better than what it is today. The FREDA will have atleast 48 vls. Sixteen vls can be added to the 32 vls on the FREMM foredeck. Plus, the FREMMs are very good point defense platforms, and the MN has E-2C for AA defense.

If PA2 is pushed back now, sense of urgency will be gone, it will be pushed back many times and only come at the next urgency: to replace CdG.

FREMMs are good ships for ASM, underpowered for AA and bloody expensive for coast guards.

"Mer et Marine" published a DCNS paper about how FREMM AVT would be nice for Anti-piracy missions "Piraterie, assauts depuis la mer : Vivement la FREMM AVT". I can't believe journalism became that.

For Greece, DCNS plans to establish a subsidiary there, and use it for cheaper export markets.

The CdG will be decommisioned sometime after 2040. The PA2 program is to high of a symbolic project to be cut or forgatten by the Sarkozy governement. I thought that the PA2 would be cancelled.

Yes, the FREMM ASM is a very good platform. The FREMMs are not AAW FFGs; they're designed to be apart of a taskforce's networked AAW defenses. They should be very good at their point-defense role.

The FREMM AVT is a good platform for French special operations forces. During the Ponant incident, if Var had not been in the same area as the aviso Bouan, the Bouan would've lost the Ponant because it was low on fuel. The German are building the F125 frigate they have the same mission as the FREMM AVT, but they much more expensive and way better armed.

 

[harryriedl]

The MN lacks serious AAW coverage now, but it performs many low threat level operations. The future MN AA coverage will be much better than what it is today. The FREDA will have atleast 48 vls. Sixteen vls can be added to the 32 vls on the FREMM foredeck. Plus, the FREMMs are very good point defense platforms, and the MN has E-2C for AA defense.




The CdG will be decommisioned sometime after 2040. The PA2 program is to high of a symbolic project to be cut or forgatten by the Sarkozy governement. I thought that the PA2 would be cancelled.

Yes, the FREMM ASM is a very good platform. The FREMMs are not AAW FFGs; they're designed to be apart of a taskforce's networked AAW defenses. They should be very good a their point-defense role.

The FREMM AVT is a good platform for French special operations forces. During the Ponant incident, if Var had not been in the same area as the aviso Bouan, the Bouan would've lost the Ponant because it was low on fuel. The German are building the F125 frigate they have the same mission as the FREMM AVT, but they much more expensive.

Its fascinating to see the processes in which the plan French MoD have for funding lots of expensive programs so the PA2 is to be built but not to 2020 [a guess]. A long wait for the defense white paper.

I guess that this white paper information from the top French paper is similar to the speculation which our papers over channel do with defense issues.

 

[youpii]

The FREMM AVT is a good platform for French special operations forces. During the Ponant incident, if Var had not been in the same area as the aviso Bouan, the Bouan would've lost the Ponant because it was low on fuel. The German are building the F125 frigate they have the same mission as the FREMM AVT, but they much more expensive and way better armed.

The Jean Bart wasn't far away. Anyway, I think they need more ships to cover the seas, but not necessarily the most expensive ones. For example if an OPV like Floreal is 1/3 of the cost of a FREMM AVT, they might have FREMM 2 AVT + 9 OPV instead of 5 FREMM AVT.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

The MN lacks serious AAW coverage now, but it performs many low threat level operations. The future MN AA coverage will be much better than what it is today. The FREDA will have atleast 48 vls. Sixteen vls can be added to the 32 vls on the FREMM foredeck. Plus, the FREMMs are very good point defense platforms, and the MN has E-2C for AA defense.

The E-2C isn't for AAW, it's for early warning - right?

The MN's protection against airborne threats will improve, but it will still be lacking somewhat. It isn't about VLS, it's about radar, tracking and weapons systems. PAAMS can intercept 8-12 missiles at any single time - I doubt the air-defence FREMM will be able to do that as well as the Horizon ships.

 

[contedicavour]

I'm just back from holidays.
If the newspapers are right, it just comes down to what I was expecting, ie 11 FREMM + 2 AAW FREMM, ie 13 in all and no batch 3.
The PA2 will happen but delayed, and the building of the FREMMs (and Barracudas ?) will be done at a slower pace to make sure it fits within budgets...

cheers

 

[youpii]

It's better than expected... if PA2 is really ordered

 

[contedicavour]

It's better than expected... if PA2 is really ordered

The trick is in approving it but then diluting the funding over 10+ years instead of 7. Total cost eventually goes up (a bit like extending mortgage on a house...) but yearly costs go down.
On top the French MoD will have to cut numbers of naval Rafale.

The result is that symbolically PA2 is preserved, but in reality the French Navy won't have it until 2020 and that you'll hardly ever see both French carriers operating simultaneously as there won't be much more than 40 Rafale built and 30-35 available at the same time

cheers

 

[youpii]

If they really order PA2, it would make more sense to increase the number of naval Rafale (cutting land Rafale) and assign them land missions when one of the carriers is not available.

 

[Sea Toby]

As mentioned, France could delay the construction a few years and buy the PA2, or could go ahead with the construction, and with the cooperation with the shipyard, finish paying for the ship a few years later. Or lease and buy later. If France truly wants a third carrier, one would think the shipyard will attempt to find a financing solution with the government.

 

[ASFC]

As mentioned, France could delay the construction a few years and buy the ship, or could go ahead with the construction, and with the cooperation with the shipyard, finish paying for the ship a few years later. Or lease and buy later. If France truly wants a third carrier, one would think the shipyard will attempt to find a financing solution with the government.

Don't you mean second Carrier?


Anyway as for the suggestion of getting the Air Force to operate Marine Rafales, take a look at Joint Force Harrier. How much time do our Harriers actually get at sea? MN would be better off waiting until the budget is better and buying more Rafales later rather than accepting that its Air Arm will take a permanent cut and rely on the air force for support.
This of course could be academic-I always thought the MN was a one carrier navy-i.e. operate two carriers to guarentee one carrier in service.