PAK-FA Cancelled???
- Thread starter Ozzy Blizzard
- Start date
I don't think that the light 5th gen fighter project is anything other then speculation at this point. The PAK FA is being developed as a heavy twin engined air superiority fighter. That fact that it will be exported doesn't make it anything like the F-35 and makes it far more likely that development will actually be completed on time (assuming major foreign financing is involved). As for stealth technology, it remains to be seen (some reduced visibility technology has been implemented on the MiG-35 and Tu-160).
Well underestimate as long as you want but I will say this.
F-22 is designed as airsuperiority fighter... F-35 is designed as strike fighter and thats two different conceptions. F-35 must unite A-10/F-16/18 etc under one platform and is heavily optimized for such cause and build in three different variants ...
You claim same manufacture produces them is as same as I said Mig-29 and Mig-25 are same because because of same Mig corporation while one being interceptor and another air-superiority .. bla bla
Sure Russian budget is 1/10 of the US but at the same time Russians spendmutch less money to deploy same stuff so .... money is of no object of them cozz specially R&D are having enough money to developt what they want ..
Things PAK-FA is being designed for air-superiority role has being said everywhere about milion times over.
Well F-117 was designed on the basis of that Russian scienties wrightings that has bein expelled from Russia for being stupid. (He tried to get his doc. degree or something like that on the basis on this "stealth" wrightings that where familiar in Russia at the time already) so the guy went to west ...LOL
My opinion is that Russia does not lag in stealth research (they allways had excellent scientiest ) ...
Also I like F-117 stealth shaping more than of the F-22. Those two stories high vertical stabilizators arent that called "stealth shaping" .. look at B-2
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #46
Considering the PAK-FA will probably be the primary/only "fighter" post 2020 (Su-34 is no more a true fighter than an F-111, even if it can self escort) i seriosly doubt it will not be able to strike.
Complete and utter Bullpoo! The F-117 was the product of a decade of R&D and mountains of money. It was not based, even partially on one mans "writings"... geeshh the things you read on a friday night!
Again total bullpoo. Why havent they built a single LO platform then? Hmmm... even a testbed? Why, because they have no experiance outside a lab with LO techniques. The EU is far, far closer to achieveing VLO ATM and they are light years away. The US on the other hand has produced 3 generations of working, real, no kidding PLATFORMS (i.e. outside of a lab and used fighting wars). But maybe your right and the russians are not laging 3 generations, 2 decades and hundreds of billions of dollars behind.
BTW i would challange the "excellent scientist" statement. I would say the russians have allways produced excellent mechanical and airodynamic engineers. They have allways laged significantly behind the west in electronics.
Nonsense the fact the USSR had numerous stealth project and did not lag much behind the US at all in terms of stealth projects, the reason why they did not achieve it was the breakup of the USSR and no money , that was the sole problem , Russia has never lost its tehnology it simply did not have the resources to work on it , hypoteticaly would the USSR economy be strong and not break up in the 90's the ruskies would already have 5th generation fighters and stealth bombers for some years.
On the topic the Russians are prosponing the date over and over , we might not see Pak-Fa maiden flight for a while.
On the topic the Russians are prosponing the date over and over , we might not see Pak-Fa maiden flight for a while.
here is another twist to the tale,a new dimension added,i wonder how true is this news article?
here is the article and the link:
http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/...eement_on_fighter_jets_space_launch_vehicles/
Brazil is going to participate in the programme to develop an advanced combat plane, the PAK-FA T-50, that will be built by the Russian Sukhoi firm. The aircraft, invisible to radar, promises to equal or exceed in performance the F-22 Raptor fighter produced in the United States (the most expensive in the world at a unit cost of 225m dollars) and should make its first flight within two years at most.
Construction of the new aircraft is only part of a wide-ranging memorandum of understanding negotiated in Moscow in February and signed yesterday by Minister of Strategic Affairs Mangabeira Unger and the secretary of the Security Council of the Russian Federation, Valentin Alekseevitch. The framework agreement marks the start of extensive cooperation between the two countries, including that on technologies considered sensitive. Called for in the space field is construction of a new launch vehicle for communication and remote sensing satellites. Use of he Alcantara Airspace Base by a new binational firm is also contemplated in the treaty.
GA_googleFillSlotWithSize("ca-pub-5440138744487553", "News_Main_300x250", 300, 250);
While discussing the PAK-FA, Mangabeira emphasized that it would be "a fifth-generation fighter." Total cost is estimated at about 20bn dollars to be divided among Russia, Brazil, and India, which will also participate in the programme. The unit price, lower than that of fourth-generation European fighters, will be approximately 80m dollars.
In addition to being invisible to radar, the fifth-generation combat planes will be capable of reaching supersonic speed using half the engine's power, a capability that reduces fuel expense, increases range, and reduces enemy engagement time. Currently, only the Americans have aircraft with those characteristics - the F-22 Raptors - in operation. A cheaper model, the F-35 Lightning, which costs 135m dollars, is in the certification phase. Minister of Defence Nelson Jobim was able to watch a demonstration of that fighter during his visit to the United States, but the aircraft was ruled out because no technology transfer was offered with it.
"We are interested not in buying finished goods but in partnerships that can strengthen the technological capability of both," the minister said. Besides Russia, China and Japan are also working on fifth-generation aircraft, but the PAK-FA project, which began 10 years ago, is the one currently at the most advanced stage.
Satellite Launch Vehicle
Russia is already cooperating with Brazil in the space field. A group of experts is in Sao Jose dos Campos acting as advisers on the Satellite Launch Vehicle (VLS) programme. The Russians are participating in the design of a new first stage, using liquid rather than solid fuel, for the rocket, which has accumulated a series of failures since the first launch attempt in 1997. Our country also has technology transfer programmes with Ukraine in connection with the production of rockets and with France, which intends to produce medium-size helicopters in Minas Gerais and submarines in Rio de Janeiro.
here is the article and the link:
http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/...eement_on_fighter_jets_space_launch_vehicles/
Brazil is going to participate in the programme to develop an advanced combat plane, the PAK-FA T-50, that will be built by the Russian Sukhoi firm. The aircraft, invisible to radar, promises to equal or exceed in performance the F-22 Raptor fighter produced in the United States (the most expensive in the world at a unit cost of 225m dollars) and should make its first flight within two years at most.
Construction of the new aircraft is only part of a wide-ranging memorandum of understanding negotiated in Moscow in February and signed yesterday by Minister of Strategic Affairs Mangabeira Unger and the secretary of the Security Council of the Russian Federation, Valentin Alekseevitch. The framework agreement marks the start of extensive cooperation between the two countries, including that on technologies considered sensitive. Called for in the space field is construction of a new launch vehicle for communication and remote sensing satellites. Use of he Alcantara Airspace Base by a new binational firm is also contemplated in the treaty.
GA_googleFillSlotWithSize("ca-pub-5440138744487553", "News_Main_300x250", 300, 250);
While discussing the PAK-FA, Mangabeira emphasized that it would be "a fifth-generation fighter." Total cost is estimated at about 20bn dollars to be divided among Russia, Brazil, and India, which will also participate in the programme. The unit price, lower than that of fourth-generation European fighters, will be approximately 80m dollars.
In addition to being invisible to radar, the fifth-generation combat planes will be capable of reaching supersonic speed using half the engine's power, a capability that reduces fuel expense, increases range, and reduces enemy engagement time. Currently, only the Americans have aircraft with those characteristics - the F-22 Raptors - in operation. A cheaper model, the F-35 Lightning, which costs 135m dollars, is in the certification phase. Minister of Defence Nelson Jobim was able to watch a demonstration of that fighter during his visit to the United States, but the aircraft was ruled out because no technology transfer was offered with it.
"We are interested not in buying finished goods but in partnerships that can strengthen the technological capability of both," the minister said. Besides Russia, China and Japan are also working on fifth-generation aircraft, but the PAK-FA project, which began 10 years ago, is the one currently at the most advanced stage.
Satellite Launch Vehicle
Russia is already cooperating with Brazil in the space field. A group of experts is in Sao Jose dos Campos acting as advisers on the Satellite Launch Vehicle (VLS) programme. The Russians are participating in the design of a new first stage, using liquid rather than solid fuel, for the rocket, which has accumulated a series of failures since the first launch attempt in 1997. Our country also has technology transfer programmes with Ukraine in connection with the production of rockets and with France, which intends to produce medium-size helicopters in Minas Gerais and submarines in Rio de Janeiro.
As one of the blokes involved in the German Lampyridae stealth project said, when the project was made public, "Everyone makes a secret of it, but Maxwell's equations have been around for more than a hundred years". RCS reduction by shaping has been recognised as a theoretical possibility ever since radar was invented, the theoretical basis of it being much older than radar itself. Pyotr Ufimtsev in the 1960s refined the work of Arnold Johannes Sommerfield, a German who'd built on the work of the 19th century Scot James Clerk Maxwell, & in the 1970s Denys Overholser & others at Lockheed, building on Ufimtsevs work, provided the basis for the F-117. Gerhard Löberts team at MBB in Germany replicated the Lockheed work completely independently soon afterwards, for the Lampyridae stealth fighter project. I'm not sure if the MBB people knew about Ufimtsevs work. They certainly knew about Sommerfield & Maxwell.
Radar-observing material has also been in use since early days. It was recognised in WW2 that the plywood Mosquito had a low radar signature for its size (but it was an accidental by-product, not designed for, & the metal propellors made up for the airframe to some extent), & both the Germans & Americans began work on radar-absorbent materials.
Yes, such materials are nothing new. The fact what russians didnt build stealth aircrafts before 90x is rather attributed to they more practical approach - 1st gen stealth aircrafts sacrificed much too much performance for they stealth abilities - and that being much too expensive on top of that .
The only relative successful LO example - F-22 - appeared much later, in 21th century, long after USSR fall. Besides, i dont think USA gained much experience from F-117 / B-2 examples in production or design regard - they are much too different from F-22. But they certainly got some operation experience - however such experience was gained against 3rd-rate enemies and could be relatively quickly gained by anyone operating stealth aircrafts.
Scorpion82
New Member
Similarities between the F-22 and F-35 are obvious, if you don't realize that you must be blind. I never suggest that both aircraft are completely identical or that they are designed for the exactly same purpose. If you had followed the development of both you would have realized this.
Just an ignorant chap can believe that the Russians will suddenly pull another 5th generation fighter out of the dust and field it by the same time as the PAK FA. Even the PAK FAs time schedule remains to be confirmed by reality.
Yes of course money is no object for them
Dream on guy.Perhaps the requirements for a 5Gen fighter for Russia needn't be so ambitious? Unlike the US, Russia has interior lines and is proximal to the probable battlefields. Less range requirements, less of a need to incorporate electronics to allow it to operate independently. Less need for a large payload as the distance to and from airbases will be less. Ground based detection systems will be more accessible for sharing info.
A LO, relatively low cost 5gen fighter would in addition allow more pilots to be trained, with more training time per pilot. Think of how useful the f-16 turned out?. Matching the F-22 can wait.
A LO, relatively low cost 5gen fighter would in addition allow more pilots to be trained, with more training time per pilot. Think of how useful the f-16 turned out?. Matching the F-22 can wait.
F-15 Eagle
New Member
I highly doubt Russia will ever get a new 5th gen fighter in service with the small defense budget that they have. The U.S. has the largest defense budget in the world and they still have a hard time getting new fighters. Russia will most likely buy Su-35BMs to replace those mig-29s and SU-27s and buy SU-34s to replace the Su-24 and Mig-25. As for the SU-25 I don't know what will replace it.
Hey mate, it would seem that the practical (and pragmatic) approach is if you do not have the (stealth) technology for practical use, then you do not build stealth aircraft at all. So, exactly what "stealth" aircraft has Russia built and operated in the 1990's?
Of course the USA gained experience with progressive aircraft stealth design. The obvious is that the F-117, B-2, and F-22 are different. This shows a progression and improvement from one project to the next. The F-117 and B-2 are exclusively for ground only, whilst the F-22 adds air combat maneuvering, previously not attainable with the earlier stealth designs.
The USAF no doubt operated the F-117, B-2, and F-22 against US SAM systems and legacy fighter aircraft to determine effectiveness and make changes to increase mission survivability. Numerous air warfare exercises such as Red Flag provide this experience. F-117/B-2 employment against inferior air defenses has minute relevancy to their development.
Mig-1.42 project already incorporated some strong stealth features, similar to F-22 - i.e. stealth without much sacrifice in perfomance. There were surely some other stealth project aimed at 21th century timeframe (similar to F-22) - but obviously they didnt came to fruition due to widely known reason
Not on manufacturing level. F-117 and F-22 design have very little common in materials and building philosophy used. Seems more like US developers realized how they there wrong with F-117 and designed something really useful - F-22 and F-35. I stress it, by all accounts building materials and techniques used in F-22 have very little in common with F-117. So F-22 seems more like general technical improvement what can be achieved without prior experience like F-117 than some follow-up design what absolutely requite such experience.
Again, wide and very expensive induction of questionable stealth design like F-117 is certanly NOT required for building F-22. Some simply computing in later 70x - early 80x would be enough to see how F-117 stealth do not justify low general performance. One dont need to spend 100 billlions $$ building and maintaining 50 such birds to see that. One should simply know - F-22 performance was not achievable in 70-80 timeframe, so there was no sense to build stealth aircraft back then.
Yes, of course such experience would add something. But the main problem - SAM systems changed a lot. Aircrafts sensors, networking, etc - changed a lot. F-22 stealth is not like F-117 stealth... so in many regards this experience should be reevaluated. F-22 performance is also very, very different. US mainly gained experience in operating F-117 and B-2 - and that experience is very much different from F-22 / F-35.
Consequences? Russians with PAK-FA probably would receive operational experience about as quick as US with F-22.
Chrom don't forget the T-60S stealth bomber that was in the prototype stage but canceled due to soviet union break , as I said if the USSR would not fall apart they would have stealth fighters , bombers you name it , come on seriusly you guys can't be that stupid as to belive that they would not have one by now , the soviet union sometimes made something faster and somewhat better than the USA during the cold war , and when USA did something better they did not need alot to make it themself they were not that behind in tehnology and in some areas ahead , even today you can see the immensive cap that the both superpowers had , USA did not put that much into tehnology and development at all after the USSR breakup , and look where they still are , the USSR broke up and were in a huge crisis in the 90's and their military suffered aswell as their economy , yet they are still in some areas of tehnology simply the best.
Scorpion82
New Member
Well the MiG MFI was never as stealthy as the F-22, not even coming close. Claiming the F-117 or B-2 were out of relevance for the F-22 is plain ignorant. Stealth is not just about airframe shaping! Materials being used, sealing panels and screws, antenna designs etc. all this contributes to the stealth characteristics. The US learned in lot of lessons in these areas when operating the F-117 and B-2, claiming the opposite is dismissing reality.Mig-1.42 project already incorporated some strong stealth features, similar to F-22 - i.e. stealth without much sacrifice in perfomance. There were surely some other stealth project aimed at 21th century timeframe (similar to F-22) - but obviously they didnt came to fruition due to widely known reason
Not on manufacturing level. F-117 and F-22 design have very little common in materials and building philosophy used. Seems more like US developers realized how they there wrong with F-117 and designed something really useful - F-22 and F-35. I stress it, by all accounts building materials and techniques used in F-22 have very little in common with F-117. So F-22 seems more like general technical improvement what can be achieved without prior experience like F-117 than some follow-up design what absolutely requite such experience.
Again, wide and very expensive induction of questionable stealth design like F-117 is certanly NOT required for building F-22. Some simply computing in later 70x - early 80x would be enough to see how F-117 stealth do not justify low general performance. One dont need to spend 100 billlions $$ building and maintaining 50 such birds to see that. One should simply know - F-22 performance was not achievable in 70-80 timeframe, so there was no sense to build stealth aircraft back then.
Yes, of course such experience would add something. But the main problem - SAM systems changed a lot. Aircrafts sensors, networking, etc - changed a lot. F-22 stealth is not like F-117 stealth... so in many regards this experience should be reevaluated. F-22 performance is also very, very different. US mainly gained experience in operating F-117 and B-2 - and that experience is very much different from F-22 / F-35.
Consequences? Russians with PAK-FA probably would receive operational experience about as quick as US with F-22.
Though I have to agree that the Russians were also looking at such technologies and gained at least some experience with test examples.
I think many western people underestimate the Russian efforts. Yet the operational experience of the US is valueable and proven and shouldn't be dismissed by the eastern people.
Well mate, thank you for your agreement on the differences and improved progression of stealth technologies and production of the F-117, F-22, F-35 series. You discredit the experiences from the F-117 program for the development of the F-22. Please don't forget the F-117, F-22, F-35 were developed by the same company, Lockheed Martin. To overlook this would be plain ignorance.
What most folks tend to overlook is that the whole concept of stealth was mainly developed to increase aircraft survivability in the various air-to-ground roles. Hence, the first purpose built stealth combat aircraft in operation were the F-117 then the B-2. Your mention of the changes in SAM systems is one of the reasons why the F-22 program took so long. As improvements were made to SAM systems, stealth engineers had to go back and examine the survivability of their projects.
Russia will gain experience with their 5th Gen fighters when (and if) these become operational, but I doubt as quick as you think. The US now has years of operational experience with stealth aircraft which grows daily. Not to mention the 1000's of combat flight hours with legacy aircraft.
A few things. F-15 Eagle just to let you know the Russian Army has said it will not procure the Su-35M. Instead there is a chance that technology from it will go into an SM2 upgrade for the Flanker fleet.
To others, don't forget Russia has gained access to the F-117 technology when the Serbians shot one down in the 90's.
Finally the currently existing MiG-35 and Tu-160 incorporate LO technology. While they're not fully stealth, they certainly do give some experience in the area (not to mention the dozens of prototype 5th gen. projects).
To others, don't forget Russia has gained access to the F-117 technology when the Serbians shot one down in the 90's.
Finally the currently existing MiG-35 and Tu-160 incorporate LO technology. While they're not fully stealth, they certainly do give some experience in the area (not to mention the dozens of prototype 5th gen. projects).