The Caucasus regional militaries- news and discussion

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swerve

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The areas of North and South Caucasus have seen many conflicts recently. Larger and outside powers compete for influence there as well. Let's talk about forces of Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan and wars they were/are involved in!

http://www.heritage.org/Research/RussiaandEurasia/images/53363397.gif
You should initiate a discussion with input of your own. What, specifically, do you want to discuss? What is your opinion? Do you have questions you wish to ask?
 

mic of orion

New Member
Let me start..


Georgian New model Army,

what's there to stop them taking Abkhazia and South Osetia by force.

I know Russians are there, but I doubt they'll go to war with Georgia over what is Georgian territory, unless Russia has hidden agenda. :confused:
 

Pro'forma

New Member
It's time.

Georgia has their own land-use-policy without propaganda to old
Russion history. By the time Russia is even accepting new democracy;
this is their new trend.
Deviousness as being blamed for war initiator is long-gone.

From all directions it seems as the reductions of old tragic rules are making
right tendency to mutual agreements, even none of the simple as democracy
and force. Not being talkative of hidden secrets or negotiations. Heavy
consumer of military stuff; first aid as redistribution jobs.

Military is first using unused rural area to start small development.
 

Firehorse

Banned Member
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Basicaly I want to discuss their weapons, strategies and trends.
Also, that region, even when part of the FSU, been the most ethnicaly diverse, with over a 100 different languages! I don't know the current situation 1sthand, but interestingly, Georgia has
Azeri 6.5%, Armenian 5.7%
,
Armenia has
Yezidi (Kurd) 1.3%
, and Azerbaijan has
Dagestani 2.2%, Russian 1.8%, Armenian 1.5%, other 3.9% (1999 census) note: almost all Armenians live in the separatist Nagorno-Karabakh region
living on their respective territory, according to the CIA site.
The last also has the largest population (with positive growth at that), and has linguistic affinity with Turkey and some Central Asian states. All 3 border on each other, with Armenia land-locked. Russia, Georgia and Armenia are Christain, but only Russia and Armenia been on good terms for some years now. Russia has access to both Black & Caspian seas, as well as land borders with Georgia and Azerbaijan, but not with Armenia. Turkey borders on Georgia, Armenia and Iranian Azerbaijan, which has about
Azeri 24%
of Iranian population.

3 years ago, Israel, Turkey plan joint weapons deals for Azerbaijan- does anyone know what become of this?

Armenia does possess some conventional weapons production capability, mostly as a result of its long-standing conflict with Muslim Azerbaijan over a primarily Armenian-populated region, Nagorno-Karabakh. In spite of its location among states considered unfriendly to Yerevan, Armenia has foregone the option of developing or acquiring weapons of mass destruction and is signatory to a number of international agreements including the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC), and the Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention (BWC).
..Armenia does not possess ballistic missiles nor does it produce any key elements for missile systems.
http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/Armenia/index.html

The Russian Daryal type Radar Station in Gabala, also known as Lyaki, continues to operate as an early warning system to detect missiles launched towards the former USSR from the south. The site does not officially have the status of a Russian military facility, but continues to be operated by Russian military personnel.
http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/Azerbaijan/index.html

As part of its Soviet legacy, Georgia possesses a decommissioned nuclear reactor and three nuclear research institutes, as well as a number of military bases contaminated with radioactive waste. Nonproliferation issues concerning Georgia stem primarily from the area of export controls. Georgia does not possess or produce nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons, but the country's industrial and medical sectors use components that could also be used in WMD systems. ..Georgia subscribes to the International Code of Conduct against Ballistic Missile Proliferation and does not possess ballistic missile systems.
http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/Georgia/index.html
Georgia Military Guide

Armenia-Azerbaijan Conflict

Azerbaijan: Baku Seems Ambivalent About NATO Membership Finally, both the United States and Turkey have for years engaged in direct bilateral military cooperation with Azerbaijan. The equipment, funding, and expertise provided within the framework of that cooperation serves to enhance the effectiveness of Azerbaijan's armed forces without incurring the risk of antagonizing Russia and Iran, which a formal expression of intent to join NATO would inevitably do. ..Many observers both in Baku and abroad, however, consider that the main problem confronting Azerbaijan's armed forces is not choosing between a civilian or a professional soldier as defense minister, but in replacing corrupt, brutal, and inefficient commanders of individual military units.
Over the past two years, the Azerbaijani media have reported several high-profile corruption cases involving the extortion of bribes by commanding officers to exempt draftees from military service or to allow them leave of absence.
Brutal treatment of conscripts by officers and NCOs is believed to have led to the desertion in recent months of several young soldiers stationed on the Line of Contact that separates Armenian and Azerbaijani forces east of Nagorno-Karabakh. At least three young servicemen were taken prisoner by Armenian forces after leaving their units, and one has reportedly formally requested not to be handed back to his commanding officer.

Defence in the Republic of Azerbaijan According to an agreement between Russia and the Transcaucasian states calling for distribution of former Soviet military assets among the participating parties, Azerbaijan would receive most of the matériel of the 4th Army that had been stationed there, together with part of the Caspian Flotilla. Russians destroyed or removed much of their weaponry upon withdrawing, nevertheless some matériel was stolen, exchanged, or handed over to Azerbaijan. This way, the withdrawal of Russian troops and matériel left an Azeri army ill-equipped and poorly disciplined. During the initial phase of the Nagorno-Karabakh war most of the Azeri units were composed of irregular forces. After the ousting of President Mutalibov the Elchibey government established the basis for the organization of the armed forces, which were considerably strengthened by Aliyev.
Today, due to the unsolved conflict with Armenia, as well as the instability in neighbouring areas (Dagestan, Georgia, Chechnya) Azerbaijan still keeps large armed forces, consuming an important share of its budget. The Chinese and Russian not always discrete support of Armenia have led Azerbaijan to seek military co-operation with the west and the islamic countries. Turkish officers have served as advisers to the Azeri armed forces. Reportedly, a group of American mercenary advisers arrived in Azerbaijan in 1992, and some Americans were believed still in the country in early 1994. About 1,000 former Afghan freedom fighters were hired in 1993, and volunteers from other Muslim countries also reportedly enlisted. Foreign advisers still have an important role today. The main school for the for the army's officers is the "Higher Military Academy" in Baku.
..Military branches:
- Army,
- Navy,
- Air and Air Defence Forces,
- Border Guards.

The army has a force around of 100,000. Most equipment is of Russian origin. It's armoured units are equiped with T-72 and T-55 tanks. Its main APCs are the MT-LB and the BMP-1. Its mobile artillery units use the 2S1 Gvozdika 122-mm self-propelled howitzer and the BM-21 Grad 122 mm multiple-launch rocket system developed in the early 1960s.
Formed in mid-1992, the Azeri navy inherited the former Soviet Caspian Flotilla and Border Guard vessels. The navy has about 5,000 personnel. The navy operates 7 patrol boats (2 - OSA-II-Class and 5 - Stenka-Class), 7 minesweepers (2 - Sonya-Class and 5 - Yevgenya-Class), 6 landing crafts, 2 landing cutters, 1 special purposes vessel and 1 special purposes cutter. Some units operate under CIS command.
The air force has about 7,000 troops. It currently has about 170 planes and 60 helicopters on 16 bases. Its backbone is a squad of MiG-25 Foxbat fighters, but it also operates Su-25 Frogfoot Ground attack planes, Su-24 Fencer fighter bombers and Tu-16 Badger heavy bombers. There is an helicopter squadron operating Mi-24 attack gunships, Mi-8 Assault/transport helicopters and Mi-2 Transport helicopters.
Azerbaijani Air Defense has about 3,500 personnel. Azerbaijan has also a missile system covering the Azeri Aerospace. The NATO designated SA-2 Guideline (original name S-75) has been installed in and around Baku and additional installations exist along the border with Iran and the Dagestan republic. Radars are mostly from the Cold War period, with some recent additions procured from the US. The US are installing two radar stations on the Russia-Azerbaijani border and Iran-Azerbaijani border to monitor Caspian Sea traffic, reinforcing Azerbaijan's position as an American vassal state in the area and positioning it against both Russia and Iran.

Military manpower:
The armed forces rely mostly on conscripts. Chiefly young men from poor backgrounds are drafted, it is widely reported that a 2,000 Euro bribe can assure an exemption from military service on spurious ill-health grounds. Poor and cramped conditions in army barracks exacerbate and spread diseases such as tuberculosis, diphtheria, and typhoid. An alleged culture of corruption, bullying, and neglect in the army continues to cause deaths unrelated to combat. Many soldiers are victims of organized extortion from their officers.
Azerbaijan - International Disputes

Azerbaijan: Iran Defense Chief Visits Amid Nuclear Standoff

Georgia Train and Equip program (GTEP)
 
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Pro'forma

New Member
As for Georgia 15.140 personnelle is its militaries.

Their equipment as full-numbers.
quant. 95 as main battle tanks
quant. 16 as main patrol crafts
quant. 12 as main combat aircrafts
and 8 as main armed helicopters

Cars were sold out as material loss year 2003

For future their planned growth and proposed military wealth is getting
under the figures, increasing sustainable growth dramatically.
Expansion is expected with Northern Alleance (Nato).
 

Firehorse

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If NATO is joined by Georgia and Azerbaijan, will their neighbor Armenia also join? After all, Russia has no direct access to Armenia but NATO will! Russia may say good bye to Erevan! By joining NATO, they will get will be more levarage with Turkey to settle their differences- Armenians are in far better position than the Kurds!
 

mic of orion

New Member
If NATO is joined by Georgia and Azerbaijan, will their neighbor Armenia also join? After all, Russia has no direct access to Armenia but NATO will! Russia may say good bye to Erevan! By joining NATO, they will get will be more levarage with Turkey to settle their differences- Armenians are in far better position than the Kurds!
Armenia has issues and can not join NATO, nor will NATO wish Armenia in its fold, or Azerbaijan for that matter. I am not comfortable with the idea f Georgia joining NATO either.

I think entire region is a tinderbox waiting to go up in smoke.
But I do think Russia is a key player here, If Georgia is to join NATO it would directly put two major military blocks at loggerheads. Russia might be reluctant to withdraw from Abkhazia and NATO would demand Russia to do so. Russia can retaliate with cutting its supplies of oil and gas to the west, but this might also end bad for Russia, as Russia would loose any leverage it has over the West and will ultimately lead to Russian economy collapsing and this might lead to another 90's ear for Russia, but this West might act decisively to brake up Russian federation (independence for all ethnic states with i present Russia).

Anyways this are my two cents...
 

Firehorse

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I agree, and incidentally, the process of FSU breakup started in Nagorno-Karabach anclave in 1986! Georgia may join the EU, although technicaly they aren't even in Europe! Since NATO and EU are twins, the result would be almost the same. The Russian had a hard time subjugating that area for 300+ years, and got Georgia incorporated into their empire only because the latter was more aftraid of the Ottoman Turkey. That said, Armenia will be in a very tough position to remain on Russia's side or neutral. Even Greece is in NATO despite her problems with Turkey!
 

Firehorse

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Update!

Georgia is to switch from AK-74s to М-4!

http://lenta.ru/articles/2008/01/28/georgia/

According to the article, Georgians have trouble getting ammunition for their Kalashnikovs. There may be other reasons as well. Google translation of a portion:
The new century has passed the test of war M4 - rifle, many units were equipped with the United States Military in Iraq and Afghanistan. The real battles have brought disappointment - a shortened barrel severely reduced the effective range of fire compared to the M-16 and Kalashnikov rifles. In addition, the rifle barrel and butt very quickly peregrevalis with intense shooting. The larger relative to the original tempo rifle shooting led to a decline in the reliability of weapons. As a result, M4 was deemed unfit for the full transfer to it of all parts of the MTR, not to mention the army.
As a prospective weapon United States Army is currently experiencing XM8 rifle, a company created by Heckler & Koch GmBH. Description XM8 and her adventures may take a separate article, but we are interested in this aspect of the question: where U.S. military sbudut stock M4 carbines and M4A1, which were not necessary?
The answer is not long in coming - by any state "first rank" have allies satellites in the third world who gladly take on similar price (or gift) any weapon, especially if they promise to help in the supply of ammunition and maintenance. One of those allies for the United States now is Georgia.
A combat effectiveness due to the Georgian soldier rearmament diminished. The main reason for this reduction will be effective firing range of 400-500 to 200-250 meters. Small gains will be in the convenience of carrying and transportation of arms by reducing its length, but the weight of the two samples did not differ so much that it should say - to 3.5 kilograms of AK ammunition and 3.1 for the M4. Strangely also heard statements by the Georgian military on the difficulties in obtaining ammunition for AK-74 - 5.45 cartridges х39 quite common, and they can buy and outside Russia. In addition, it should be noted that the service M-16 and its derivatives requires a higher technical culture than AK, which is also not conducive to improving the operational effectiveness of armies of the third world who suffer from a lack of qualified personnel.
However, the procurement of weapons too politicized in order to explain its technical and military expediency. Converting from AK on the M4 will enable Georgia:
demonstrate loyalty to the Senior novoobretennomu Brat;
help him get rid of surplus weapons of ageing.
Moreover, the new machines will allow retired Elder Brother show their independence and civilization. Is it worth it, the right word, with the possibility of making such a great thing to think about some efficiency?
 

Chrom

New Member
Georgia is to switch from AK-74s to М-4!

http://lenta.ru/articles/2008/01/28/georgia/

According to the article, Georgians have trouble getting ammunition for their Kalashnikovs. There may be other reasons as well. Google translation of a portion:
I mean, troubles to get ammo for KALASHNIKOV??? Nonsense! So, there MUST be other reasons :)

As for Caucasus... All in all, i dont expect much conflicts there. As for NATO... last thing NATO wants is to accept that can of worms inside. Beleive me, the main requirement for Georgia joining NATO is complete and undisputable solving Abhazia and Osetia conflicts - what basically means OFFICIALLY giving them independnce.

Azerbaijan is/will be VERY wary of NATO becouse it is oil rich country. Armenia will not join NATO becouse historically it is very close to Russia - and still is. Georgia, as i said, sole possible candidat for joining NATO - IF abandoning claims for Abhazia and Osetia.
 

mic of orion

New Member
I mean, troubles to get ammo for KALASHNIKOV??? Nonsense! So, there MUST be other reasons :)

As for Caucasus... All in all, i dont expect much conflicts there. As for NATO... last thing NATO wants is to accept that can of worms inside. Beleive me, the main requirement for Georgia joining NATO is complete and undisputable solving Abhazia and Osetia conflicts - what basically means OFFICIALLY giving them independnce.

Azerbaijan is/will be VERY wary of NATO becouse it is oil rich country. Armenia will not join NATO becouse historically it is very close to Russia - and still is. Georgia, as i said, sole possible candidat for joining NATO - IF abandoning claims for Abhazia and Osetia.
Absolute nonsense. NATO would not welcome Georgia with open arms due to the lack of democratic reforms in Georgia but also the fact Georgia is rather precarious position. This does not mean Israel and US won't help Georgia, do not forget radical elements with in US Republican party hate Russia and anything Russia stands for, they wouldn't mind seeing China or some other country attacking Russia,.

If anything, all Georgia has to do is steer few problems in Cacusses to destabilize whole region, and than militarily take Abkhazia and South Osetia which are Georgian lands, fact that few Osetians and Abkhaz can do what they want as long Russia is supporting them is not something I'd consider very neighborly. If Russia did something like that to say UK or France, they'd (Russians) be running away with the tails between the legs.

Fact, that Georgia is small, poor and rather insignificant country gives Russia the right to exploit the situation and try to grab even more land from its neighbor, as if now it is not already big enough.

Remember, China still has claims in Siberia and with in 2-3 decades we might see the reprise of China-Soviet Union border conflict, but this time, China is not going to bow down, this time it might end with Russia loosing large piece of valuable land, China is becoming more and more capable country and by 2020 will dominate Asian Continent.

I think Russia needs to form alliances and not creating discords, what they are doing in Georgia and elsewhere ensures in future Russia will have no friends to help them, out when they'll need help.

PS, I am totally against Georgia joining NATO, but this is bc it is in quite delicate situation and we really don't need that kind of mess over here.


my two cents :)
 

Chrom

New Member
Just a little note - be very carefull about borders in ex-USSR. They are basically NOT historically proven, and there are no moral or even common sense rights to choose the sides in most conflicts there. But even IF such borders were indeed historically settled down for long tme - it still wouldnt mean anything in current world. I mean, look at Balkans...
 

Chrom

New Member
enough.

Remember, China still has claims in Siberia and with in 2-3 decades we might see the reprise of China-Soviet Union border conflict, but this time, China is not going to bow down, this time it might end with Russia loosing large piece of valuable land, China is becoming more and more capable country and by 2020 will dominate Asian Continent.

I think Russia needs to form alliances and not creating discords, what they are doing in Georgia and elsewhere ensures in future Russia will have no friends to help them, out when they'll need help.

PS, I am totally against Georgia joining NATO, but this is bc it is in quite delicate situation and we really don't need that kind of mess over here.


my two cents :)
1. China do not claim anything officialy or even half-offcially. As for some radical elements in China... well, i think pretty much EVERY country around the globe have similar claims for russian lands... I mean, Finnland, Japan, Germany, Poland, Romania, Norway, Baltic, Ukraina, every ex-USSR republic generally - to even name the few. ALL of them have territorial grudges against Russia to very some degree as China, and many of them to much more serious degree- they claim part of Russia theys officialy.

Of course, China is most powerfull of them all - that is why it is considered "bigger" threat. But it is unfair to talk if China wants conqering Russia more than any other country.
 

drg

New Member
Just on Armenia,
It's just set up a company called DG Arms Corporation that will manufacture ammo this year, and hopes to manufacture flak jackets by next year. Apparently Armenia was making its own ammo, but used up too much, so then had to rely on importing it for a while. Hence the decision to set up DG.
 

Firehorse

Banned Member
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books

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0822958988/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt/103-5067559-3715049?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1"]The Lone Wolf And the Bear: Three Centuries of Chechen Defiance of Russian Rule[/ame]

The Sabres of Paradise: Conquest and Vengeance in the Caucasus, Revised Edition

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Chechnya-Tombstone-Russian-Anatol-Lieven/dp/0300078811/ref=sid_dp_dp"]Chechnya: Tombstone of Russian Power [/ame]

I've read only the last one- and would recommend it to those who want to learn the regional issues in-depth!
 

Firehorse

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AZERBAIJAN: WASHINGTON, BAKU CONCERNED ABOUT PKK CELLS IN CAUCASUS

..the PKK is building "close relations" with "terrorist groups and organizations" that are enemies of both Turkey and Azerbaijan -- a remark seen in Baku as a reference to Armenia or ethnic-Armenian forces.
Well, I'm not surprised- the Caucasus is a logical place for them, especially with Armenia having her own scores with Turkey to settle!
 

drg

New Member
Azerbaijan has just announced it is going to export weapons. No more details have been given.
 
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