Taiwanese Navy

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
I thought I might open a general thread, rather than just have one on the future Taiwanese submarine project.

Taiwan OKs Subs Money

Taiwan wants submarines. Its legislature has now passed a defense budget that includes the first dollars the island has decided to spend on a modern underwater fleet.

There is a strong chance that Groton's Electric Boat could benefit from those dollars, because Taiwan's new submarines would be designed and made in America, and this submarine builder is anxious to bid on the work — as long as the U.S. Navy says it's OK.

Taiwan has set aside an initial $62 million to start a design and building process that could result in an eight-boat diesel-electric fleet — a weapons deal that is strongly resisted by China, which considers Taiwan a rogue province that China will one day reclaim. The United States is Taiwan's chief protector and weapons supplier, and the only submarine-building country apparently willing to make such a deal against China's wishes.

The concept for the eight-boat deal emerged in 2001, when President Bush announced a significant defensive weapons package for Taiwan, though years have passed in which Taiwan's leaders have debated the expensive arrangement. The decision had become highly politicized, and the final compromise so far includes less money than the estimated full cost of a design for the new subs.

These submarines would be powered by diesel and batteries. If they are assembled in America, it would mark the first time U.S. submarine builders have built subs for a foreign navy. It would also be the first time they have worked on diesel-powered subs since the 1950s birth of the nuclear-powered fleet. Diesel-electric submarines are smaller than their nuclear cousins and are able to stay underwater for much shorter periods.

Electric Boat officials have said the company won't bid for the work, which would be coordinated through the Pentagon, until it receives confirmation that its primary customer — the U.S. Navy — doesn't mind. But if it gets the nod, the company is eager to work on a new generation of diesels. The Department of Defense has indicated as recently as last year that it still intends to honor the 2001 presidential offer if Taiwan comes up with the money.

On Thursday, Taiwan's Legislative Yuan passed the bill, which also pays for Patriot missiles and sets aside a further $105 million for submarines. The Taiwanese administration would have to ask for that additional money from the legislature.

It's unclear how or when the initial $62 million for submarines will be spent. Some Taiwanese legislators have reportedly referred to it as "feasibility study" funding, but Justin Bernier, who heads Connecticut's military liaison office, said the money is more than that.

"The politics in Taiwan sometimes confuses the message," he said Thursday. "What's clear is that this funding will go toward the beginning of a design."
What do you think will be the next step for this project and what are your views more generally?
 

Ths

Banned Member
With the present economic conditions, there is going to be a lot of cheap arms from the USA. It will be an affront to China: The USA defaulting on Chinese loans (smashing the USD into the ground) and letting China (indirectly) pay for the subs to Taiwan.

Then you say business men do not have a sense of humour.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
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  • #3
The USA defaulting on Chinese loans (smashing the USD into the ground) and letting China (indirectly) pay for the subs to Taiwan.
Eh, what are you talking about? Taiwan, not China, is paying for every dollar in this project. Last year (or maybe it was 2006) it was also stopped for lack of a few million from Taipei.
 

ever4244

New Member
Eh, what are you talking about? Taiwan, not China, is paying for every dollar in this project. Last year (or maybe it was 2006) it was also stopped for lack of a few million from Taipei.
He mean US treasurey print more paper dollor than before,therefore the actual value of US dollor is dwindling.and because Mainland China holds a great amount of US goverment bond and US dollor reserve, the actual value of those bond and reserve are droping.

So by continuesly devalueing dollors ,US steals back a portion of money China earned by export. if considering the gross value of China s reserve , this portion of money US steal back is more than enough to build a small fleet of such submarine.

Besides ,because devalueing US dollor will benefit all US importers because the US goods will become relatively cheaper.
So, a portion of that portion of money steal from China will goes to the pocket of other importers to US ,which certainly include Taiwan.

And because US got more adverse balance of trade deficit ,So a portion of that money will also remain in US. That s how US use the simply printing method to evasion of international debt.

However, only US can do this in the world now ,because US dollor is the sole dominate money in international trade. Print a bit more dollor won t cause devastating inflation because dollor itself is the very ruler to determine the value.


BTW, the main obstacle of Taiwan s submarine import will lays in US navy isself. If the production line of diesel once reopened, the Navy will face tremendous presure from Senate to equip diesel boat for coastal operation to cut the cose.

However ,the Navy don t want to equip the diesel the boat and cut down the number of expensive nuclear boat.
 
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harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
are there any plans to refit the La Fayette Class as the chapparele missile are clearly inadquet for the job [rear aspect only can't be fired at night]
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
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  • #7
are there any plans to refit the La Fayette Class as the chapparele missile are clearly inadquet for the job [rear aspect only can't be fired at night]
Reportedly one ship is being trialled with a modification of the TC-2 AAM in box launchers. If successful the rest of class would get 16 VLS cells with it, with the first maybe being upgraded later.

We might hear some more on it later in the year - work on the first was supposed to be complete by the end of 2008.
 
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contedicavour

New Member
Reportedly one ship is being trialled with a modification of the TC-2 AAM in box launchers. If successful the rest of class would get 16 VLS cells with it, with the first maybe being upgraded later.

We might hear some more on it later in the year - work on the first was supposed to be complete by the end of 2008.
Sorry but VLS for what ? Still the Chaparrals ? They really need MICA or something even more serious (ESSM or Aster)

cheers
 

contedicavour

New Member
Reportedly one ship is being trialled with a modification of the TC-2 AAM in box launchers.

The Sky Sword II (otherwise known as the "TC-2") air-to-air missile.
But this is an air to air radar guided missile, roughly comparable to the first versions of AIM 120. I wasn't aware a SAM version of Sky Sword existed...

cheers
 

contedicavour

New Member
I think the point is that one is being/has been developed.
With the US being ready to sell ESSM and SM2 I don't understand why they bother to develop entirely new systems... although I imagine the new SAM doesn't require hull penetrating VLS canisters and is thus less expensive to install as retrofit to the Lafayettes.

cheers
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
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  • #15
With the US being ready to sell ESSM and SM2 I don't understand why they bother to develop entirely new systems... although I imagine the new SAM doesn't require hull penetrating VLS canisters and is thus less expensive to install as retrofit to the Lafayettes.
Has the US authorised the sale of the ESSM to Taiwan? I know the SM-2 has been sold (Keelung, ex-Kidd destroyers).

It's partly down to bolster domestic industry - Taiwan can't be completely reliant on the US. Maybe it's cheaper and easier for them to do it this way.

Furthermore SM-2 wouldn't be used because it's an area-defence missile - the Kang Dings need a point-defence system like Seawolf, VLS MICA, Aster 15, etc.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Yes right, the most cost effective solution is VLS Mica to update Lafayette. It requires limited modification of superstructure vs larger missiles and VLS and is ideal for short range anti-missile protection.
Besides, we have Sylver A35 now in production for Mica.
However if the ROC has more budget available, Sylver A50 for Aster 15 and 30 would be much better but would require installing Arabel, Herakles or EMPAR radars. Probably too much work.

cheers

cheers
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
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  • #17
Yes right, the most cost effective solution is VLS Mica to update Lafayette.
That's assuming it has been offered. ;)

France did indicate it would upgrade the frigates, but the price was too high as Paris wanted a big mark-up that Taiwan couldn't afford. That's another reason why a domestic solution is being looked into.

Plus if the technology is successful it would probably be used on the future class of corvettes Taiwan might build early next decade.
 

Firehorse

Banned Member
IMO, Taiwan may get together with S.Korea in TBMD deployment. That will give them confidence in the face of BM treat from the PRC, without getting any offensive capability that may anger China. What ships can accomodate interceptor missiles?
Also, I would like to know what kind of rifles taiwanese SOF use- does anyone here know? I couldn find any info. in my searches. Last year, Chinese fisherman discovered a US assault rifle in the Taiwan Strait. I doubt that , if it was used by USN SEALS, its serial# would not be filed off!
 

Gripenator

Banned Member
That's assuming it has been offered. ;)

France did indicate it would upgrade the frigates, but the price was too high as Paris wanted a big mark-up that Taiwan couldn't afford. That's another reason why a domestic solution is being looked into.

Plus if the technology is successful it would probably be used on the future class of corvettes Taiwan might build early next decade.
A new class of corvettes would boost deterrence against the numerically superior PLAN-if they are to be built.

Further talk has it that the KH-6 FAC numbers will be cut from 31 as another class of FAC is being designed to counter the 022 FACs of the PLAN from somebody who knows his stuff.

http://www.taiwanmilitary.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10443
 

globedweller

New Member
diesel submarines

The mayor problem is china en will by, there are not many country's that can and will build diesel engine sub's, and head butt the beiing.

So the main thing will by, build yourself and that is hard takes a lott of time and money

What country can build themself. not even taking about a API system
 
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