A hypothetical EU force structure

swerve

Super Moderator
Not sure if this is the right place. If not, I'm happy for it to be moved.

Let us imagine, without speculating on how such an unlikely situation might come to be, that this time next year the USA has a president-elect who won on a platform of withdrawing from all international agreements except purely practical ones (telecommunications, measurement standards, bank transfers - you know the sort of thing), military disengagement from the rest of the world, as far as is practicable (bases to be kept on US sovereign territory, & perhaps in pliant small countries, but not elsewhere unless judged essential to immediate national interests, & not likely to cause involvement in local quarrels, military aid to be ended, etc.), & promoting a more autarkic (not USSR-style, just strategic stuff, like energy, & pork-barrel industrial protectionism), which will also have the effect of reducing those "immediate national interests". i.e. out of NATO, the WTO, treaties with Japan, etc., no troops in Europe, S. Korea, etc.

Assume this manifesto has the support of a solid majority in Congress, so it's going to happen.

In this situation, let us assume that the various EU countries decide that they really ought to get their collective act together & organise their military properly, 'coz it's a cold hard world out there with no Uncle Sam waving the big stick.

Note that I will not engage in any discussion whatsoever about the politics of this situation, & I strongly urge everyone else to refrain likewise. The above is an artificial situation, posited in full knowledge that the likelihood of it coming to pass is approximately zero, & with no intention to suggest it is desirable (or otherwise). It's purpose is solely to provide a rationale for the question below.

The Question:

It is early 2009. You have been appointed to head the commission tasked with drawing up proposals for restructuring forces for collective defence, including the provision of intervention forces. What do you propose? Your parameters are -

It has been agreed to retain troops in the Balkans & Afghanistan, & replace US forces with EU troops, as the Americans withdraw.

Forces will remain national, & nationally funded. Britain & France have voted through an immediate 10% increase in spending. Countries spending below 2% of GDP have approved an immediate increase to that level. Greece (the highest spender) will keep spending at current levels for now.

You may plan for spending of 2.5% of GDP in 2010 & at least as much in subsequent years. You do not need to take into account operational costs over peacetime base level, as supplementary contingency funds have approved, to be spent if needed.

Standardisation is to be promoted, but you can't ignore national industrial concerns completely. For obvious reasons, preference is to be given to domestic equipment. The USA can be assumed to be happy to sell 2nd line weapons ("JSF-lite", transport aircraft, etc), & spares for existing kit, on strictly commercial terms, but not first-line weapons, e.g. not US-standard JSF.

As for manpower needs, new equipment, upgrades, reactivation of stored stuff, new development - whatever you think best. Both immediate needs & medium-term plans. Focus on your own country, if you wish. Think of that as a subset of the overall proposals.

Remember that for some countries (e.g. Austria, Finland, Spain, Germany, Italy, Belgium) this is a big increase, which may prove difficult to use all at once. Not politically acceptable to transfer money from one country to another directly, but there are ways to do it indirectly, e.g. Germany buying Invincible & funding her reactivation as an LPH, & the UK using the money to boost the RN budget, or Germany building & crewing new ro-ros & transporting other peoples kit in 'em. Those are just examples, not suggestions for what should be done.

Go for it!
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Questions:

- US withdraws from AFG? (asking for contingency planning)
- US withdraws from all bases in relevant countries?
- full EU-27 (ie all members) involved?
- "regional" standard frameworks allowed? (ie eg "WEU-Continental" standard)
- will Canada stay in NATO? ;)

Offhand - on the "US support" side - my first suggestion would be the UK moving to 2.3m tubes (and subsequently M51) with their next SSBN generation (which is sorta imminent in development). And immediately merge AWE's development with AREVA's TNO (or whoever's doing it). Next step, up the SSBN force by 50% on each side with the new acquisitions, and have France buy more than just those 60 ASMP-A.

That'd be my plan for the first 20 billion of "additional funds" anyway . Cruise missiles would be next.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Another question.
What about current joint US-"Enter EU country" projects.

I think about stuff like MEADS, RAM upgrades, etc.
Are these projects going to be finished or does the US opts out of them and the remaining partners have to life with it?
 
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Grand Danois

Entertainer
From my corner of the world... Denmark!

DK currently spends EUR2.7B at slightly less than 1.3% of GDP. 2% would mean an EUR4.1B expenditure - LOL!

Since the recent EC court decision on the Swedish labour market, a vote on the judicial opt-outs has moved into the future, and a vote in the 2008-9 period on the defence opt-out has now gone to the fore. Meaning all 27 nations would be ESDP members.

Alright, Danish force structure is set up to provide modules that integrate with allied expeditionary forces - NATO in particular - and is not really an integrated territorial defence anymore. Also, manpower is in shortage from a recruitment/retention standpoint.

Basically it would just shift the existing modules from NATO/NRF to EU battlegroup availability.

So the national force structure should overall be maintained. However, the additional EUR1.4B should in the short term be spent on replacing US kit and munitions, medium term acquisition of major European items and long term pan-European projects.

Navy - Short term: replace ESSM/SM with Asters. Harpoon with RBS15 mk III or equivalent. Medium-long term: acquire 3-4 Astutes or, if nuclear is a no go, make the Germans build fleet subs for us. With the Americans going isolationist, there will be a sudden need for Denmark to have a serious fighting capability in the North Atlantic. Subs are relatively light on manpower.

Army - Well, already pretty much Euro equipment.

Air Force - Medium term: Dump F-35, go for the EF2000 T3. It's the most expensive of the Euros on offer, but also the most capable. Again, because manpower is the limitation and money is really not an issue (the money has also already been "allocated").

Excess cash - inject into joint Euro programmes. Particularly strategic like Galileo and the like - we have a better chance in space than aerospace industry (niche).

I think this model would easily use up the extra EUR1.4B/yr in short order. :p
 
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Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Ok, Kato is defenitely going to give a much better and detailed list of ideas but my first shots are this.
And as you said I just act as if we would be a normal country military wise like the UK or France. ;)

Germany roughly pays now 1,3% of GDP. With 2,5% we would have an available budget of more than 50 billion €. More than 70 billion $ at current exchange rate.
Yeehaw, what a number.
I hope I calculated right. :D

So my first ideas.

- Add more PGMs to our current fleet of Tornados (Taurus and 2000lb GBU-24 is just not versatile enough) and get the EF with full air to ground capability active as soon as possible. One needs to replace US air support and currently the Luftwaffe is not able to do this with a PGM of less than 2000lb.

- Buy more NH-90 and Tigers, upgrade and overhaul as many CH-53G to GS standard as possible and get the HTH project into the pipe as soon as possible.

- Advance with UAV and UCAV development and purchasing. This helps addressing the problems a withdrawal of US troops causes.

- Advance with space based recce capabilities. The SAR-Lupe/HELIOS cooperation is a good first step.

- IMHO the Marine should be relatively ok, like GD said try to get away from standards and ESSMs and start fielding Asters. We are planning to change from Harpoon to RBS family anyway. Go on with RAM upgrades on our own and with anybody who wants to join.
Get some serious amphibious capability.
With so much more money (Nearly double than what we have) even investing in the UK/France carrier program is possible with the aim of two carriers but for this we would also need to get more F-126 FFGs and the U212As seem not to be the best sub for protectiong a carrier.
make RafaleM the main carrier plane for europe.

- With the introduction of Taurus, IRIS-T and Meteor on EF and Tornado the Luftwaffe should also be able to life without US purchases. Fund full EF Tranche 3 capabilities.

- The Heer is also relatively independent from US systems. If we don't have the ability to license produce GMLRS we should develop it on our own.
Start fielding more boxers in all the envisioned versiones. Get a successor for Luchs into the pipe as well as some upgrades for the Leo fleet up to A6EX standard and add a pool of PSOs for oversea deployments. Start fielding active protection systems as soon as possible. Advance with the purchase of mine protected vehicles.

Now the more fundamental changes

- Start fielding a fully professional force. Full stop for conscript system.

- Stop the BS with KRKs and SKs and bring all mechanized brigades to full status. I don't think we need more heavy forces but we have to make sure that every heavy brigade combat team has the full three bns and its artillery, engineer, etc support.

- We need more light infantry. Bring the Fallschirmjäger back to real Division size and start fielding the 1. Gebirgsdivision again. Bring the Jägerregiment 1 up to brigade size and maybe reactivate some other Jäger units.

- Invest heavily in a modern networking systems (Which are compatible with our EU comrades). Our mech forces still run around without a battlefield management system and the rest of our forces also still lacks behind.
Increase introduction of IdZ this is too slow.

- Invest into modernizing the barracks which start to fall apart and dramatically increase funding for training, ammunition and maintenance (For in country and oversea usage).

- Increase funding for R&D. Without the US to hold the technological advantage of the EU over the rest of the world is even more important.

Afghanistan is defenitely going to be a problem and I hope we would get enough warning time before a US withdrawal because otherwise this is going to get a real problem.
I am sceptical if the EU could muster enough forces to fully replace the US. The buildup needs time and maybe other commitments like Bosnia and Kosovo need to get cut.

That's it for my first ideas. It's late so I am for sure going to add something tomorrow. It's late and I need my sleep...
(University is over for this year. It's christmas time :)).
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Ok, Kato is defenitely going to give a much better and detailed list of ideas but my first shots are this.
Nah, i'll just add some comments to your stuff. :D


If we don't have the ability to license produce GMLRS we should develop it on our own.
About every single missile system the Bundeswehr uses is license-produced by Diehl, iirc SM-2 and ESSM are the only exceptions.
Get a successor for Luchs into the pipe
... that would be Fennek?

- Start fielding a fully professional force. Full stop for conscript system.
Disagree for personal political opinion. Besides, you couldn't pay for that unless you fully retreat from social funding.

Bring the Jägerregiment 1 up to brigade size and maybe reactivate some other Jäger units.
IMO: form three or four more brigades in an identical fashion to D/F. Don't do the same with other nations.

- Invest into modernizing the barracks which start to fall apart
Not needed that much really. After all, we gain barracks for 73,000 people in this deal.

I am sceptical if the EU could muster enough forces to fully replace the US.
Under current numbers planning (which is like 20,000 total in peacekeeping forces) - definitely not.


(University is over for this year. It's christmas time :)).
Meh, not around here. Still two days of university, both the one i study at and the one i work at.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
Another question.
What about current joint US-"Enter EU country" projects.

I think about stuff like MEADS, RAM upgrades, etc.
Are these projects going to be finished or does the US opts out of them and the remaining partners have to life with it?
I'd envisage the US opting out, but willing to arrange an orderly handover of relevant documentation. They may want to proceed with their own version, which would be easier if they make the split as amicable as possible.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8
Questions:

- US withdraws from AFG? (asking for contingency planning)
- US withdraws from all bases in relevant countries?
- full EU-27 (ie all members) involved?
- "regional" standard frameworks allowed? (ie eg "WEU-Continental" standard)
- will Canada stay in NATO? ;) ....
Damn, you're making me think more!

Assume the USA is seeking disengagement, but would like to maintain amicable - but distant - relationships with its former allies.
1) Withdrawing from AFG, yes: but happy to co-ordinate its withdrawal with the other countries present.
2) Yes, though I'm not sure what to do about, e.g. Ascension & Diego Garcia. They may either seek replacements in smaller states, e.g. Sao Tome & Principe & Seychelles, seek some kind of "sovereign base" arrangement, or withdraw.
3) Probably. Assume the big countries decide to do it, & smaller members decide they're better in than out, maybe with a bit of arm-twisting in some cases, e.g. Ireland.
4) Why not? The Norwegians, Turks, Icelanders etc. might want to sign up.
5) Tricky. Let's assume Canada accepts a US offer of security guarantees conditional on Canada withdrawing from NATO (that mutual defence provision!), but Canada continues to provide training facilities, participate in peacekeeping, etc, if only to show the world it's not a US client state.

Making this up as I go along, trying to keep it consistent. Basic principle is to assume the USA wants to keep the world at arms length. Probably means keeping its immediate neighbours under its wing to some extent, so similar US offers to Mexico & Central American & Caribbean countries, dependent on not hosting foreign bases or allying to anyone outside the area. But USA makes no attempt to interfere with existing arrangements between EU countries & their ex-colonies, & is happy to co-operate on such things as chasing drug smugglers in the Caribbean & pirate-bashing anywhere US merchant ships sail. But on an informal basis.
 

Jon K

New Member
The Question:

It is early 2009. You have been appointed to head the commission tasked with drawing up proposals for restructuring forces for collective defence, including the provision of intervention forces. What do you propose? Your parameters are -

Standardisation is to be promoted, but you can't ignore national industrial concerns completely. For obvious reasons, preference is to be given to domestic equipment. The USA can be assumed to be happy to sell 2nd line weapons ("JSF-lite", transport aircraft, etc), & spares for existing kit, on strictly commercial terms, but not first-line weapons, e.g. not US-standard JSF.

As for manpower needs, new equipment, upgrades, reactivation of stored stuff, new development - whatever you think best. Both immediate needs & medium-term plans. Focus on your own country, if you wish. Think of that as a subset of the overall proposals.
Instead on focusing on stuff, I'll focuse on some organisational matters. In general I think EU armed forces are of respectable size already by number of their operational units, additional money should be sent on better equipment, training and personnel.

First, creation of an EU Joint Staff College to promote unified thinking and exchange of ideas.

Second, creation of a EU Force Training and Evaluation Institution which would set EU performance standards and evaluation system which have to be fulfilled by every armed forces.

What I mean, is that, for example, there's standard for an Armor Battalion.
No matter what it's exact organization or equipment would be, it would have to be able to perform certain functions at certain speed with certain efficiency. The standards would be created and tested by EU Force Training and Evaluation institution. This way various national industrial interests would be satisfied.

The standards I'd have in mind, for Ground Forces, would be Divisional HQ standard, Bde HQ standard and Battalion level standard for various roles. Corps HQ's would be multinational by default, smaller organizations would be either one nation or multinational efforts, depending on size of respective countries.

EU Force Training and Evaluation Institution would have various centres of excellence, for example, Nordic countries would set up one for arctic warfare, Spain perhaps for desert warfare, Austria one for mountain warfare etc.

The evaluation process would be for General Forces, which could be used in all EU defense duties. One of the most important things would be publicity; how many certified forces each country could muster shoud be public information, which would increase transparency and promote competition between countries and armed forces.

In addition there would be strictly national local defense forces such as Swedish Hemvärnet, Finnish Paikallisjoukot etc.

The generic goal would be 1/4 standard for General Forces, meaning that short of general war, there should be capability of deploying 1/4 of General Forces for indefinite time on out of EU area missions.

In addition to General Forces there should be also somekind of spearhead, capable of very rapid deployment, perhaps of roughly division size.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Nah, i'll just add some comments to your stuff. :D
Ja ja... :D ;)

About every single missile system the Bundeswehr uses is license-produced by Diehl, iirc SM-2 and ESSM are the only exceptions.
I expected that GMLRS is licensed produced by Diehl. The question was more directed towards if GMLRS is already introduced and Diehl got the license contract. I'm not sure about that.
Maybe we could even get a license for the standards and ESSM before the US isolates. Would make everything much easier and we could also build them for the other EU countries.

... that would be Fennek?
Current planning is that the Fennek and the Luchs (in smaller numbers than before) serve side by side with 1 company each in every bn. The remaining Luchs are going to be replaced by something else. Possibly a Boxer version.

http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/vwContentByKey/W26L8AT4776INFODE

Good news to me, because the Fennek is prey for enemy counterrecce forces.
And to stay on topic is there an alternative for a modern armed recce vehicle available in europe? The UK opted for CV-90 IIRC which is not that good of a choice IMHO.

IMO: form three or four more brigades in an identical fashion to D/F. Don't do the same with other nations.
Jup, sounds like a good option.

Not needed that much really. After all, we gain barracks for 73,000 people in this deal.
Ah yes, I forgot the abandoned US barracks. These are defenitely bigger than what we need and should be in better shape. Maybe we could open them also for other smaller EU countries wanting ti train here. Let's make a EU training ground out of Hohenfels and Grafenwöhr (A little bit similar to Bergen).

Under current numbers planning (which is like 20,000 total in peacekeeping forces) - definitely not.
IMHO the problem is not mainly manpower. If the EU is serious about continuing with A-stan and reduces (Bosnia, Kosovo) or stop other commitments (Iraq). We could even deploy more combat aircrafts for CAS (We have money now and we assume that we also have the political will) but what I am really sceptical of are things like transport aircrafts and helicopters as well as recce assets.

Meh, not around here. Still two days of university, both the one i study at and the one i work at.
Friday is always free and today my Prof just said that he is away and we are free to go. :D
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
@Jon K
I see no problem in just keeping the NATO structures.
Should be much easier and more efficient to replace the US slots with EU guys than to build up a totally new system.

All NATO countries are supposed to be able to work together and I am sceptical if a EU defense coalition could get an even more integrated system.

There is a another question.
What about countries like Norway and Finland?

Norway is in NATO but not in the EU. Vice versa for Finland. Do they opt to join the new EU defense colation?
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Regarding GMLRS: Diehl apparently is a partner in the development (along with: Lockheed-Martin, MBDA and FiatAvio). What's a bit more complicated is as usual the UK picking the US FCS solution for MLRS/GMLRS (IFCS), and Italy, Germany and France opting for a joint EADS-designed FCS.

Regarding industry cooperation - that's actually surprisingly low, once you get to the end-customer level. I.e. Germany has a lot of its systems domestically (license-) produced, France only buys French anyway, Spain and other nations rely on German/French/Swedish systems a lot.
Problems could pop up in supply particularly regarding:
a) nationally: in particular for the UK and Italy
b) system-wise: in particular AShM and SAM systems (Harpoon, Patriot, Standard)

---

Item 1:

Now, to get back to the nukes, since i got started on that...

I quite seriously think that in that scenario there would also be some thinking (in Germany, maybe also Italy) about what to do about NATO Nuclear Sharing, and since France has already offered...

---

Item 2:

There are certain (physical) areas in which the US doesn't "interfere" at all in the EU at the moment; this is in particular the Baltic Sea as well as the air defense of its smaller neighbors (which is fully provided by other EU members), Scandinavia and its dependants (with the exception of Greenland), to a limited extent also the Mediterranean (US is restricted to a "observe and gather" role there pretty much), localized defense in the nations where the US has bases (as about 70% of the troops from there are in Iraq or Afghanistan).
In these areas, there wouldn't be much change realistically.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
In the end I feeled a little bit surprised when I thought about how much US equipment is really in use with the european nations.
Even the small ones relying heavily on euro equipment (or WarPac stuff).

There are fewer systems than I was afraid of and for many items there is an alternative available or in the pipe.

And with the increased budget one should be able to handle the development of new stuff.

And it is maybe not that easy for the US as it looks like.

I remember that the fuzes for their bunker busters are bought in Germany because their own try in developing a good working system failed.
And projects like the JSF would need a totally domestic development and have a smaller market making it much more expensive for the US.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Even the small ones relying heavily on euro equipment (or WarPac stuff).
I think the only nation that would suddenly be "without supply" and need some serious equipment restructuring would be - surprise - Luxembourg. Although they could always buy their TOWs in Germany, replace the 24 Humvees with something Euro, and buy something better than those 30-yo LAWs. Their C3 equipment iirc is like 80% US though.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Oh, that's defenitely a blow. :D

-------

What about the shared NATO equipment. I suspect that the EU stays in control of every NATO facility in europe but who gets the AWACS and C-17?

I would suspect the US wants the ones they paid for. Did they pay for any of them?
If not they could remain in the pool because with the absence of US assets in europe these AWACS and C-17 become even more important.
With increased budget of so many countries I would also like to see the procurement of more C-17 for the pool.
 

Taitennek

New Member
Who is the enemy?:rolleyes:

27 european nations, 27 defence systems.....

As long Europe is not acting as 1 single nation, this whole discussion is hypothetical.
[Mod edit]
It's meant to be hypothetical. And technical, rather than political. The political conditions are assumed, & not up for discussion. Please respect that, & refrain from further digressions.
PJI[/Mod edit]


When looking at the defence of Europe, I suggest that Europe comes to a standardization of her military equipment. the result is that you can produce more for less money. And do not underestimate the quality of European-made systems. Go for a European Defence-network with European-made equipment.

Who is the enemy?
As far as I can see, the enemies of the USA are [mostly] the enemies of Europe, that has to do with the influence of NATO as organization within Europe [ruled by the Americans] and the leading role of the USA in worlds politics. And, of course the lack of common thinking by Europe itself.
We should ask ourselves..... Why are we in Afghanistan, or Iraq? or other [future] military conflicts? When the POTUS is sick and tired of Chavez and attacks Venezuela, should Europe be at war with Venezuela as well? Just an example.

All European countries should step out of NATO and [finally] set up her own national defence-network. The base is there [the WEU], only the guts to do so, is missing.

That was my 2 cents.;)
 
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Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
There are quite a bit countries which are not participating in Iraq... ;)

And you just started what Swerve wanted to avoid.
You started a political discussion.
But as he said this is not the point.
This is a hypothetical discussion about how a european defense coalition could look like and what the different countries and the countries as a whole could do to ensure europes ability to defend itself and to intervene somewhere else.

All in the light of a mutual defense spending of 2,5%.

You can for sure add your ideas for the whole european network (standards, TO&Es, networks, equipment) or for the Netherlands in particular.
But please don't start with politics in here.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #18
Oh, that's defenitely a blow. :D

-------

What about the shared NATO equipment. I suspect that the EU stays in control of every NATO facility in europe but who gets the AWACS and C-17?

I would suspect the US wants the ones they paid for. Did they pay for any of them?
If not they could remain in the pool because with the absence of US assets in europe these AWACS and C-17 become even more important.
With increased budget of so many countries I would also like to see the procurement of more C-17 for the pool.
AFAIK, the C-17 pool doesn't include the USA, but the USA paid part of the costs for the NATO E-3s. No reason why the US share couldn't be bought out, though. It might qualify as first line equipment of the sort that I envisage not being available for export, but those particular aircraft have already been exported, in effect. By a happy chance, the countries in the E-3 pool mostly have pretty low expenditure at present, & could easily finance such a buyout from their first year of increased expenditure.

BTW, I see no reason why more C-17s couldn't be bought.
 

swerve

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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #19
.... However, the additional EUR1.4B should in the short term be spent on replacing US kit and munitions, ...
I don't see that as necessary in the short term. I'm not postulating a hostile USA, merely one that wants to keep out of what it sees as other peoples quarrels, & is unwilling to export its first-line weapons. Spares & support should be available for anything it's already sold. Keep the US stuff until it's worn out.

When it comes to the sort of upgrade (e.g. the F-16 MLU) which the new US policy won't permit US support for, decide whether it's better to upgrade it yourself & lose any further US support for the system, keep it without upgrading, or retire it.
 

swerve

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Any specific suggestions about naval equipment? For example, what about the feasibility of integrating Aster with Mk 41 VLS & associated fire control systems & radars, e.g. APAR? Does anyone have strike-length Mk 41, & if so could Scalp Naval be integrated? What about ESSM?

Should stored Leopard 2 be re-activated & upgraded?

What about MPAs? Rebuild more Nimrod airframes (have to replace some of the US systems in the MRA4)? And ISR? Go ahead with AGS? What to get instead of the Eurohawk? I'm assuming Global Hawk will no longer be available.

Would it be worth Italy & Spain buying F-35B lite airframes & integrating European avionics in place of embargoed US systems? Or let Cavour turn into an LPH eventually? What to do about CVF?
 
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