USA Planning 20 Billion $ Arms Sale to Saudi Arabia

[merocaine]

There is a difference letting Iran be a leading state in the Gulf and letting it dominate. And the latter is out of the question due to the outside presence. Iran could not assert itself. Read the third article you posted.

I would call the police if there is a burglar breaking and entering downstairs, i.e. call the global power. (I know, bad analogy).

Now we are talking, if the US is ready to act as the Gulfs policeman when the Iranians 'break in down stairs'.... your right terrible analogy.
Then what is the point in selling 20 billion!?! worth of weapons (which then nessetaes you pumping up military sales/aid across the region)?

Iran has a feeble offensive capabilty, a mostly obsolete military that is bearly capable of defending itself against any modern opponent. Any offencive move would see it hammered by the US.

I just hope congress has the sense not to turn the middle east into anymore of an armed camp than it already is.

Eh? sorry i might have missed the part where the Iranian Ambassador brow beats the Saudi's into submission. Or even the part where the Iranians tried to.

Once more: Iran doesn't browbeat SA. You're putting words in my mouth.

you ammended your post, you originally had

They aren't are they? Why?

which i took to be a question...

Those articles to me demonstrate in a slow ramping up of diplomatic engagement, The Iranians and Saudi's have been seeking common ground, in the last 20 years they have undergone a dramtic turn around.

For me this arms sale is a destablising influence. Rather than attempt to improve Saudi/Iranian relations, the US with this kind of deal will actively damage them. Perhaps some see this as a good thing.

 

[Grand Danois]

Now we are talking, if the US is ready to act as the Gulfs policeman when the Iranians 'break in down stairs'.... your right terrible analogy.
Then what is the point in selling 20 billion!?! worth of weapons (which then nessetaes you pumping up military sales/aid across the region)?

Then the question is; why do the Saudis see the need for those weapons? Their shopping list is long and most of the kit on it is European (NH90, EF, MIKSA, etc.). And the Euros aren't inherently antagonistic to the Iranians...

I still haven't figured out if the US is making a bid on those potential Euro orders, or if we're talking "new" money.

Iran has a feeble offensive capabilty, a mostly obsolete military that is bearly capable of defending itself against any modern opponent. Any offencive move would see it hammered by the US.

The arsenal of TBMs and the ability to shut down the Strait of Hormuz are examples offensive capability. The ability to hold the adversarys assets at risk. Subversive efforts are others, which also require paramiliatary equipment.

you ammended your post, you originally had

I may have. Cannot tell for sure. As you can figure English is not my native language. My posting MO is sometimes to write the post, post it, do something else, revisit it shortly after (like 5 min) and correct poor choices of words and formulations which I knew was there, and make sure what intend to say comes across as i meant it to be. You may have been a victim of that.

But

1) I do not do this when a reply has been entered to my post. I Don't know where it should be, but if you check up on when I edited that post you think of, and compare it to when you posted yours, I am pretty sure my edit precedes your reply.

2) Let me assure you that any edit is not an attempt at dishonesty towards the discourse.

EDIT: Having re-read the thread, I simply cannot see I should have amended such. The posts with edit stamps does not concern our discussion.

Those articles to me demonstrate in a slow ramping up of diplomatic engagement, The Iranians and Saudi's have been seeking common ground, in the last 20 years they have undergone a dramtic turn around.

For me this arms sale is a destablising influence. Rather than attempt to improve Saudi/Iranian relations, the US with this kind of deal will actively damage them. Perhaps some see this as a good thing.

What we can discuss forever is, how important such engagements are seen in the wider context. They can have meetings and summits and still be deeply adverserial. They can make agreements on stuff like common enemies, but is it a reflection of the game that is really played?

The answer to that question is also the answer to if the US is destabilising the SA/Iranian relations.

 

[merocaine]

Quote:
Originally Posted by merocaine
you ammended your post, you originally had

I may have. Cannot tell for sure. As you can figure English is not my native language. My posting MO is sometimes to write the post, post it, do something else, revisit it shortly after (like 5 min) and correct poor choices of words and formulations which I knew was there, and make sure what intend to say comes across as i meant it to be. You may have been a victim of that.

But

1) I do not do this when a reply has been entered to my post. I Don't know where it should be, but if you check up on when I edited that post you think of, and compare it to when you posted yours, I am pretty sure my edit precedes your reply.

2) Let me assure you that any edit is not an attempt at dishonesty towards the discourse.

EDIT: Having re-read the thread, I simply cannot see I should have amended such. The posts with edit stamps does not concern our discussion.

When I read it, it must'ent have displayed properly, it was prob just a server error.

''They aren't are they? Why? '' the rest of the sentence was'ent there.

The arsenal of TBMs and the ability to shut down the Strait of Hormuz are examples offensive capability. The ability to hold the adversarys assets at risk. Subversive efforts are others, which also require paramiliatary equipment.

true, but again those are defence spolier weapons, in reality they will be deployed only if attacked since closing the straits is a doulble edged sword . Lazer guided bombs are not anti terrorist weopons, policemen are.

Then the question is; why do the Saudis see the need for those weapons? Their shopping list is long and most of the kit on it is European (NH90, EF, MIKSA, etc.). And the Euros aren't inherently antagonistic to the Iranians...

I still haven't figured out if the US is making a bid on those potential Euro orders, or if we're talking "new" money.

If it is on top of existing orders then the Iranians will have every right to complain, I would have serious worries that the Saudi's are gearing up for an Iraqi adventure , or at least the possiblity of it.

 

[cheetah]

Israel has come out in support of a multi-billion dollar U.S. arms deal to Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries. I can't remember the last time Israel supported a deal like this. Probably because it never has. So what exactly is going on this time?

It's Nasrallah and Iran, then, that moved Israel to break with a 60-year policy of opposing arms sales to the Arabs.

And the Israelis make no bones about how we got here: the Bush Administration completely botched the Iraq invasion, allowing Iran to effectively annex Basra and a large part of southern Iraq. The Israelis' nightmare is that there will be some sort of domino effect, the Iranians moving down the Arab side of the Gulf.

The Israelis also believe the Iraq fiasco emboldened Iran to incite its Palestinian allies. Israel holds Iran at least partially responsible for Hamas's coup in Gaza. An Administration official, speaking privately, agrees.

The Israelis want to stop Nasrallah, Hizballah and Iran from making serious inroads into the West Bank. What keeps them awake at night is Iran in the Gulf. If it means our arming IRANS historical enemies, the Gulf Arabs, so be it.

Remember to post a link to the source:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1648100,00.html

/GD

 

[cheetah]

Iran is not at all worried about the strengthening of the defense capabilities of Muslim and friendly countries, Defense Minister Brigadier General Mostafa Mohammad Najjar said here on Monday.


The remarks came as the United States prepares to announce an arms package for Persian Gulf states, which Washington alleges to be a measure adopted in reaction to Tehran's growing military might.

"Every country has the right to produce or purchase its needed weapons to reinvigorate its defense capabilities," Najjar told reporters.

"The Islamic Republic of Iran is not at all worried about the strengthening of the defense capabilities of the Muslim, friendly and brotherly states and believes that their increased defense capabilities would boost the defense capabilities of the Muslim world," he added.

"Those regimes, which still dream of a land stretched from the Nile to the Euphrates and invade the territories of the Islamic countries, should feel concerned about this issue," the General reminded.

"When selling arms to regional countries, the US always acts in a way that the Zionist regime (of Israel) can maintain its military superiority," he said, adding, "They strive to spark an arms race in a bid to keep their giant weapon production companies away from the danger of bankruptcy."

Meantime, the Iranian defense minister reiterated that durable peace and security in the Persian Gulf can merely be established by regional states , FNA reported.

"The Islamic Republic of Iran has and will always underlines the need for the expansion of mutual cooperation, refrain from tension, respect for good neighborly relations, conclusion of consolidated political, economic, defense and security treaties to help establish peace and tranquility in the region, and it has always pioneered in doing so," the General concluded.
BAZTAB - July 30 ,2007
http://en.baztab.com/content/?cid=3961

 

[Grand Danois]

When I read it, it must'ent have displayed properly, it was prob just a server error.

''They aren't are they? Why? '' the rest of the sentence was'ent there.

I remember that now. It was my browser botching up the editing field, which made me post the incomplete post, shut down and reopen the browser, then write the rest.

 

[SaudiArabian]

Iran is not at all worried about the strengthening of the defense capabilities of Muslim and friendly countries, Defense Minister Brigadier General Mostafa Mohammad Najjar said here on Monday.

i doubt that Mostafa Mohammad Najjar consider the GCC countries as "Muslim and friendly countries" , how does he explain the Iranian official criticism of the arm sale for the GCC's ?

 

[eaf-f16]

i doubt that Mostafa Mohammad Najjar consider the GCC countries as "Muslim and friendly countries" , how does he explain the Iranian official criticism of the arm sale for the GCC's ?

All Arab countries minus a very few insignificant countries have bad relations with Iran. All major Arab countries would like the Shah of Persia to magically return to the throne. I heard that the US helped in getting rid of him.

 

[SaudiArabian]

All Arab countries minus a very few insignificant countries have bad relations with Iran.

the GCC's , Egypt , Jordan and Yemen are insignificant ?

 

[eaf-f16]

Israel has come out in support of a multi-billion dollar U.S. arms deal to Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries. I can't remember the last time Israel supported a deal like this. Probably because it never has. So what exactly is going on this time?

It's Nasrallah and Iran, then, that moved Israel to break with a 60-year policy of opposing arms sales to the Arabs.

And the Israelis make no bones about how we got here: the Bush Administration completely botched the Iraq invasion, allowing Iran to effectively annex Basra and a large part of southern Iraq. The Israelis' nightmare is that there will be some sort of domino effect, the Iranians moving down the Arab side of the Gulf.

The Israelis also believe the Iraq fiasco emboldened Iran to incite its Palestinian allies. Israel holds Iran at least partially responsible for Hamas's coup in Gaza. An Administration official, speaking privately, agrees.

The Israelis want to stop Nasrallah, Hizballah and Iran from making serious inroads into the West Bank. What keeps them awake at night is Iran in the Gulf. If it means our arming IRANS historical enemies, the Gulf Arabs, so be it.

Remember to post a link to the source:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1648100,00.html

/GD

Look Israel wants the Arabs to buy arms from the States because then they're both dependent on US parts and help and also because that way they Israelis have a say in what Arab countries can buy and what they can't. Also when the Arabs go for none western origin equipment it's usually better than the western hardware and usually cheaper allowing them to buy in larger quantities.

 

[eaf-f16]

the GCC's , Egypt , Jordan and Yemen are insignificant ?

I said bad relations. These are the ones that are major Arab powers (except for Yemen it can go to hell as long as it doesn't aid Iran's army by letting them through to Saudi and let them use air fields).

 

[Waylander]

The US wanted to get rid of the shah?

Yeah, they and other western countries sold modern military hardware worth billions of dollars, the Israelis trained his intelligence officers and so on.
And than the US suddenly decided to get rod of him?
Did they also wanted their embassy personal to be held hostage by the revolutionaries?

Your statement is exactly contrarian to how history happened.

 

[eaf-f16]

The US wanted to get rid of the shah?

Yeah, they and other western countries sold modern military hardware worth billions of dollars, the Israelis trained his intelligence officers and so on.
And than the US suddenly decided to get rod of him?
Did they also wanted their embassy personal to be held hostage by the revolutionaries?

Your statement is exactly contrarian to how history happened.

I can't remember where I read that but I know it seems unlikely and I was shocked to hear it. But I think they aided in getting rid of him. I think they wanted to democratize Iran or something and it back-fired like hell. I honestly don't remember.

 

[Waylander]

It is far away from reality.
They backed the Shah as much as they could and they defenitely didn't want to install an Ayatollah regime instead.

 

[cheetah]

i doubt that Mostafa Mohammad Najjar consider the GCC countries as "Muslim and friendly countries" , how does he explain the Iranian official criticism of the arm sale for the GCC's ?

you can doubt what you like and not.Washington post (American media)writing about Iran.yeah i don't see no propaganda there.


p.s weren't you going to share with me the involvement of Saudi Arabia in 1967 Arab Israeli war.which you claimed they played a big roll in been few months now still waiting.

 

[eaf-f16]

you can doubt what you like and not.Washington post (American media)writing about Iran.yeah i don't see no propaganda there.


p.s weren't you going to share with me the involvement of Saudi Arabia in 1967 Arab Israeli war.which you claimed they played a big roll in been few months now still waiting.

The Saudis helped Egypt financially in 1967 and I think sent 400 troops that never saw action. But at least it was something and I think the financial help was significant.

 

[eaf-f16]

It is far away from reality.
They backed the Shah as much as they could and they defenitely didn't want to install an Ayatollah regime instead.

Guess i was reading some conspiracy theory .

 

[cheetah]

The Saudis helped Egypt financially in 1967 and I think sent 400 troops that never saw action. But at least it was something and I think the financial help was significant.

so they didn't help.

No wonder Israel is OK with this sale.nfloorl:

 

[SaudiArabian]

I said bad relations. These are the ones that are major Arab powers (except for Yemen it can go to hell as long as it doesn't aid Iran's army by letting them through to Saudi and let them use air fields).

aha i see , sorry i readed it quickly now i know what you mean
but don't underestimate Yemen , they are against Iran as well



@ Cheetah

Saudi Arabia deployed 20 000 troops in Jordan to protect it , it is not however the place to discuss it here besides i'm unable to send PM's untill i have 50 posts

 

[SaudiArabian]

King Receives US Secretaries of State and Defense

Jeddah, July 31, SPA -- Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz received here today US Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice and US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates and their accompanying delegation.

During the audience, the two US officials conveyed greetings of US President George W Bush to the king who in turn sent his greetings to him.
...
...
...

--SPA
http://www.spa.gov.sa/English/details.php?id=471832
http://www.spa.gov.sa/English/details.php?id=471835